I Think I'm Going to Make Up My Own Elmal Cult

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Nonetheless, they are not Pure Horse or Pentan, they are culturally Orlanthi.

They are culturally diverse as King of Sartar describes.

3 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

If you look at their demographics, they have a minor temple to Yelmalio, but I’d imagine that would be either the Praxian version or their post-revelation Elmali, not the Pentan Kargzant who the Pure Horse Tribe have no connection to.

Religion isn't demographics.  And why so dogmatic about the Pure Horse not having any connection to Kargzant?  He would be an ideal god for those Grazers who have lost their connection with Yu-Kargzant but still struggle to for the light.  There is no Praxian version of Yelmalio save that worshipped in Sun County.  

[hipsterinspace]

38 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And why so dogmatic about the Pure Horse not having any connection to Kargzant?  He would be an ideal god for those Grazers who have lost their connection with Yu-Kargzant but still struggle to for the light.

Their entire way of life is structured around not losing that connection, that’s why they are the Pure Horse, why they live in the highly restrictive way that they do. They would not know the mysteries of Kargzant, they would have no need to know them, they have never worshiped him. As such, that’s why I would think the Pol-Joni probably had Elmal prior to Monrogh and maybe the Praxian Sun Daughter tradition, which leads me to:

38 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There is no Praxian version of Yelmalio save that worshipped in Sun County.

They used to call Yelmalio Sun Daughter, one of the more important spirits of Prax and part of their Sky Gazers spirit society. Their Yelmalio cult is focused on riding rather than pike phalanxes, and is primarily among Imapala tribe and to a lesser degree within the Sable tribe. I like David Scott’s suggestion that they are a martial cult who follow Light Khans and do not have priests which sounds very similar to Elmal’s rune lord-only cult of Loyal Thanes.

Edited April 11, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Their entire way of life is structured around not losing that connection, that’s why they are the Pure Horse, why they live in the highly restrictive way that they do. They would not know the mysteries of Kargzant, they would have no need to know them, they have never worshiped him. As such, that’s why I would think the Pol-Joni probably had Elmal prior to Monrogh and maybe the Praxian Sun Daughter tradition, which leads me to:

Again this is too dogmatic.  Every culture has misfits and people who screw up, with the taboos being so restrictive and all that, so it's simply not plausible to say "nope, the Grazers never fall afoul of their taboos".  Even King of Sartar has hints of the process when it talks about the Wanderers among the Grazers leaving the tribe p91 and p93.  Now since the Grazers explicitly worship Yu-Kargzant, the question then is what do they think about plain Kargzant?  Having him as the patron of the impure (who would still be a tiny minority) makes loads of sense to me.

2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

They used to call Yelmalio Sun Daughter, one of the more important spirits of Prax and part of their Sky Gazers tradition.

Can I trouble you for a source on that?   Just getting a bit annoyed that you make all these statements and don't bother to support them,.

2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Their Yelmalio cult is focused on riding rather than pike phalanxes, and is primarily among Imapala tribe (and the other pygmies of the Ostrich riders) and to a lesser degree within the Sable tribe.

Yelmalio doesn't have any special association with riding Eiritha beasts than he does with Phalanx fighting.  The Praxians would worship him not because he's a good rider (or even fighter) but because he's an excellent survivor.  I daresay he's popular among the Impala because everybody else is bigger than them.

 

 

[hipsterinspace]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Again this is too dogmatic.  Every culture has misfits and people who screw up, with the taboos being so restrictive and all that, so it's simply not plausible to say "nope, the Grazers never fall afoul of their taboos".  Even King of Sartar has hints of the process when it talks about the Wanderers among the Grazers leaving the tribe p91 and p93.  Now since the Grazers explicitly worship Yu-Kargzant, the question then is what do they think about plain Kargzant?  Having him as the patron of the impure (who would still be a tiny minority) makes loads of sense to me.

They only become impure by herding something other than horses or practicing agriculture, per the Yu-Kargzant section in RQG's core rule book. Both of those are why they have the Vendref around to do it for them.

As for the relationship between Kargzant (who the Grazelanders do not have) and Yu-Kargzant, I think the WoD article on Solar Pentans is pretty useful, they have Pure Horse Yu-Kargzant worshipers as a priestly caste within their tribes and among nobles (women from those groups worship Dendara as La-Ungariant), but most people worship Kargzant and the Cow Goddess (Yelmalio and Eiritha). Pentans do not have Vendref to burden with the responsibilities of herding food beasts, so they appear to use Kargzanti in a similar way to the Yelmite-Lodrili dynamic of lowland Peloria.

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Can I trouble you for a source on that?   Just getting a bit annoyed that you make all these statements and don't bother to support them.

If you want citations, the Guide p. 647 explains that Yelmalio is called Sun Daughter among the Praxians. David Scott has written extensively on the Praxian tradition and is the person I'd most trust to have the right answer as the person writing much of the official material. He talks in detail about Yelmalio in Prax here. 

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalio doesn't have any special association with riding Eiritha beasts than he does with Phalanx fighting.  The Praxians would worship him not because he's a good rider (or even fighter) but because he's an excellent survivor.  I daresay he's popular among the Impala because everybody else is bigger than them.

He's popular because he came to help the Praxians in the Darkness as Sun Daughter, the same reason any Praxian spirit is venerated. If you just want the ultimate survivor you have Waha, the reason why everyone there survived.

Whether you want to agree with me or not, we're getting a big far afield from Elmal.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

make Chalana Arroy an associate

Opening up the notion of a Sun Dome LBQ with this association makes me wonder what independent non-Orlanth Sun Domes do at Sacred Time. I don't know if it's possible for them to reinvigorate the world in quite the Orlanth way . . . their version might preserve or recover ritual elements that otherwise didn't really survive the Bright Empire. This is probably not quite an annual Hill of Gold, which IMG remains a more personal spiritual adventure. Do they integrate into the Orlanth LBQ with some form of Protects the Stead?

[hipsterinspace]

29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Opening up the notion of a Sun Dome LBQ with this association makes me wonder what independent non-Orlanth Sun Domes do at Sacred Time. I don't know if it's possible for them to reinvigorate the world in quite the Orlanth way . . . their version might preserve or recover ritual elements that otherwise didn't really survive the Bright Empire. This is probably not quite an annual Hill of Gold, which IMG remains a more personal spiritual adventure. Do they integrate into the Orlanth LBQ with some form of Protects the Stead?

In the older material, when Orlanth departs he entrusts the defense of the stead to Elmal and Vinga who defend his people while he is away. This would be an occasion for Elmal clans to heroquest Elmal Guards the Stead, and I’d imagine it would serve as a piece of the wider I Fought We Won rites practiced basically everywhere. The Hill of Gold has a lot of messages similar to the I Fought We Won/Unity Battle, and some say that Elmal Guards the Stead is a version of the Hill of Gold.

As for Chalana Arroy and Elmal, if you look into the Six Ages stuff his rider followers worship Erissa, who we know as a daughter of Chalana Arroy (also an associate/subservient cult of Yelm) offering the rune spell Restore Vision. In the background of KoDP, Elmal joined with Orlanth after Chalana Arroy “cured his blindness”. These seem like they’re probably related somehow.

On the other hand, I don’t know that I would associate them if you’re looking more properly at Antirius-Daysenerus-Kargzant-Tharkantus Yelmalio, as he was healed in the darkness by Aldrya and the Elves rather than Chalana Arroy.

Edited April 11, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[scott-martin]

18 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

On the other hand, I don’t know that I would associate them if you’re looking more properly at Antirius-Daysenerus-Kargzant-Tharkantus Yelmalio, as he was healed in the darkness by Aldrya and the Elves rather than Chalana Arroy.

This is the thing! Much effort has been made over the years to plumb the works of LBQ and so I find myself wondering which other survival covenants (which other forms of IFWW) survive in the early hero wars landscape. In Prax they might take two weeks to hear the storm story; Prax has acquired deep storm sensibilities over the years. When they greet the spring (the new sun) in the Fronelan Dome, what friends are invited to their feast? I don't know if they let the storm people take over the temple in that season. And in other domes, the political dimensions might make things even more complicated, diverse and fun.

Of course this is not to imply that Chalana is not a green goddess also and so they could have met that way.

[dumuzid]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is the thing! Much effort has been made over the years to plumb the works of LBQ and so I find myself wondering which other survival covenants (which other forms of IFWW) survive in the early hero wars landscape. In Prax they might take two weeks to hear the storm story; Prax has acquired deep storm sensibilities over the years. When they greet the spring (the new sun) in the Fronelan Dome, what friends are invited to their feast? I don't know if they let the storm people take over the temple in that season. And in other domes, the political dimensions might make things even more complicated, diverse and fun.

After running a year+ worth of campaign in Fronela I'd say the most surprising Sacred Time guests to a Praxian or Kethaelan traveler would be the cultists of Vorthan, the Fronelan god of the Red Planet.  He's part of the Jonatelan royal cult complex, he has the fortress-temple Vorthan's Hill situated right in the heart of western Jonatela, elevated above the surrounding river valleys and clearly visible from across the region.  Compared to Dragon Pass, where just about everyone but the Lunar Tarshites would consider Jagrekriand a chief cult enemy, or even Peloria, where Shargash is a recognized but rather tightly circumscribed and overseen cult with the Red Dancer of Power administering the Lunar Imperial Church from the Red Quarter of Alkoth, Vorthan seems to be powerful, influential and widespread in Fronela.  Particularly in Jonatela and Junora, but I'd even expect some warrior lodges dedicated to him in Loskalm, particularly at Spada where King Sigur interred the Red Sword after the defeat of the God Learners.

[Jeff]

Positing Elmal as a totally different entity from Yelmalio creates all sorts of cosmological headaches. The easiest way of looking at Elmal is he is the abridged version of Yelmalio. Same with Kargzant. Same entity but not all is connected. Like the relationship between Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth, Pole Star and Polaris or White Princess and Inora. 

 

[hipsterinspace]

42 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

In Prax they might take two weeks to hear the storm story; Prax has acquired deep storm sensibilities over the years.

I think Prax’s contribution to I Fought We Won is quite straightforward: it’s the Eternal Battle, Storm Bull and the Devil. Perhaps they say the Little Sun was there too, the last light in the darkness, shining over Storm Bull to avenge his lost brother Yamsur.

42 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

When they greet the spring (the new sun) in the Fronelan Dome, what friends are invited to their feast?

Well, there’s Southbank not far away, said to be ruled over by a Solar Tyrant and a resurgent Yelm cult. As @dumuzid points out there’s Vorthan nearby with his hill, ostensibly Yelmalio’s brother, there to kill everything to bring about new life. There are the elves of the Courtwood and Winterwood. There are also plenty of Earth worshipers around everywhere.

Edited April 11, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Positing Elmal as a totally different entity from Yelmalio creates all sorts of cosmological headaches. The easiest way of looking at Elmal is he is the abridged version of Yelmalio. Same with Kargzant. Same entity but not all is connected. Like the relationship between Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth, Pole Star and Polaris or White Princess and Inora. 

 

It's not (for me at least) that Elmal is a different Entity, more that he has different cultural traditions and myths. Because of this, he will be worshipped in a differing way (though not a completely alien way).

For many of us, this type of lateral shift (due to culture), introduces many many avenues for additional social role-play.

SDLeary

[radmonger]

Perhaps, in Swenstown, there is a minor temple to the Watcher. This is associated with the Hawk Watch, a small unit of the Sartarite military that runs deep patrols into praxian territory scouting for nomad raids. 

Personally loyal to, and formally sponsored and supported by, the Prince (until recently Temertain, now Kallyr), watchers can come from any tribal background, though most are from the local horse-favouring tribes. The cult provides the best light cavalry training and magic outside the Grazelanders, but is too small to sponsor its own full dragon pass wargame counter.

The cult loses royal support shortly after Argrath takes over; he is quoted as saying 'if any nomads come, they are here because I called for them'.

Patrols are always small, sometimes solo, moving at night. By day, they hide and observe by use of the cult's trained hawks. These patrols take the patrollers away from normal city life for long periods, so most do not maintain any other cult ties they have, or marry while serving, except to another watcher.

Spells taught at the temple and its shrines include Cats Eye, Sun Bright, Command Hawk, Invigorate, Clear Sight, Shield, Heal Body, Fearless, and Vision. As a military organisation, it teaches no farming magic.

Cult Runes are . it has been noted by sages that the spells distinctive to this version of the cult require an affinity for the harmony rune, not usually focused on by other similar cults. As one noted sage said, the gods, by their nature, have mastery of many runes. The limitation of the human condition is that the full range of their prowess is rarely matched by those who seek to emulate them.

The stories taught by the cult to lay members are all about the exploits of heroic watchers in loyal service to the Prince.  The politically-loaded question of who the original Watcher was is rarely publicly spoken of to non-initiates. Veterans of the watch who leave the area find they can renew their magic at any shrine to Yelmalio, Elmal or any other Lightfore-cognates .

 

 

 

 

 

[Lordabdul]

20 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

It's not (for me at least) that Elmal is a different Entity, more that he has different cultural traditions and myths. Because of this, he will be worshipped in a differing way (though not a completely alien way).

For many of us, this type of lateral shift (due to culture), introduces many many avenues for additional social role-play.

In my opinion (and for what that's worth!) that kind of stuff is already implied for all cults. The worship of, like, Humakt or Issaries in Ralios is bound to be very different from their worship in the Holy Country or in the Lunar Provinces. The temples and traditions and accoutrements and prayers and songs and stories and such will be very different. There's even published material establishing that some specific city or temple, here or there, are completely unique in their approach to their god (including the occasional using of a completely different name and/or availability of unique magic)

So no need to make new/separate cults in my opinion -- that actually makes gameplay more difficult and limited for the player, without allowing anything I couldn't do already.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Lordabdul

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

In my opinion (and for what that's worth!) that kind of stuff is already implied for all cults. The worship of, like, Humakt or Issaries in Ralios is bound to be very different from their worship in the Holy Country or in the Lunar Provinces. The temples and traditions and accoutrements and prayers and songs and stories and such will be very different. There's even published material establishing that some specific city or temple, here or there, are completely unique in their approach to their god (including the occasional using of a completely different name and/or availability of unique magic)

So no need to make new/separate cults in my opinion -- that actually makes gameplay more difficult and limited for the player, without allowing anything I couldn't do already.

Fair enough; YGWV.

The reason for the focus on Elmal (at the moment), is that in Sartar, this is an active attempt at replacement of one cult by another. The incoming cult is foreign, replacing the "traditional" vision of the entity in question. This would create social dynamics that are simply too good to pass up. 

Also, let's face it, humans have long memories. Look at our own world and some of the ancient differences which cause trouble today. Even WITH Mythical/Heroquesting support, the timeframe involved is much too short for the type of wholesale replacement that is being proposed.

I was hopeful when Greg revealed Elmal in Sartar, that we would in turn learn of other differences in the other areas of Glorantha (the gods as described never seemed to click quite right for me). Alas, the time was not there. 

SDLeary

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by SDLeary

[Rob Darvall]

13 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

The reason for the focus on Elmal ...

 

Another is that, regardless of how you choose, all-encompassing Yelmalio, schismatic Elmali, or simply Yelmalians as the up-tight pricks in Suntown, these debates prompt thinking about Glorantha in different ways. I've probably learnt more from the whole Elmal/Yelmalio thing than from any other single debate (possibly because it keeps recurring so often)

I can use an Elmali revival in the Far Place as a reaction to Harvar so an Elmal cult is of value to me. See also:

22 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

social dynamics that are simply too good to pass up

AKA plot hooks.

I do use Yelmalians as the up-tight pricks in Suntown.

I also have a Yelmalian player who literally provides "light in the dark" for the party. His cult emphasis on duty also is a useful curb on the player's youthful tendency toward murderhoboing.

All of these employ different styles of play and produce slightly different avatars of Glorantha. The focus on Elmal helps clarify those different styles.

 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

The reason for the focus on Elmal (at the moment), is that in Sartar, this is an active attempt at replacement of one cult by another. The incoming cult is foreign, replacing the "traditional" vision of the entity in question. This would create social dynamics that are simply too good to pass up. 

It totally would! That sounds like a good background for a game! But AFAICT from Chaosium's Glorantha, that game would be set in the mid/late-1500s or something. In 1625 (again, in Chaosium's Glorantha) these events were in your parents' and grand-parent's lifetime. It's like saying French people are hostile and grumbling about the Germans when, as we know, we actually love our German friends. Any Frenchman still talking about the war(s) would be considered a weirdo who hasn't gotten the memo. But of course, if that's a theme you want to play with in your Glorantha, by all means you can change the setting's history and have this whole affair drag on for a century -- it can work perfectly fine. It's sometimes fun to unravel all the threads of a simple world-building change.

 

1 hour ago, Rob Darvall said:

I can use an Elmali revival in the Far Place as a reaction to Harvar so an Elmal cult is of value to me.

I went the other way, because I frankly don't care about Elmal (I never played KoDP or HQG). That is: they're all Yelmalions but of different allegiances and traditions. The Yelmalions of Alone got a severe reminder of who was the boss in 1611, and the Alone temple's hierarchy was quite shaken up. One of my players' PC's dad was on the "wrong side" of that conflict (read: "the right side" 😄 ) and got demoted from priest to drill sergeant for newbies. The PC is now trying to rise in the ranks and is finding it hard to walk the fine line between respecting Harvar's authority and his own personal opinions... let's just say that his meeting with the boss, when he has a Hate (Harvar) Passion, was quite fun to play. There have also been several occasions for spying on the boss and other such shenanigans.

But an Elmali revival sounds great too! Have fun with your game!

Edited April 12, 2023 by Lordabdul

[svensson]

@Lordabdul If you don't hate but respect your drill sergeant/instructor by the end of boot camp, they didn't do their job right 😁 Mind you, I have no idea how wingnuts and mop-jockeys feel about it. They don't have real drills anyway. 😁😁

To all the contributors:

My idea here isn't to 'make Yelmalio with serial numbers filed off'. My intention is to make a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities with separate myths who share similar but not identical portfolios. I strongly feel that if I construct this right Elmal worshipers will simply not care what Yelmalions are up to any more than a modern Baptist cares about what a Lutheran is up to. The sects will be different enough that they will attract their own worshipers.

I have this mental scenario where some doctrinaire Light Son starts quoting chapter and verse [in Firespeech, of course] and Elmal Light Thane says 'So what? That's not how we do that and it doesn't matter to us."

Edited April 12, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

And just to digress a little bit, it occurs to me that the Yelmalion basic sense of xenophobia and their deep seated need for social control is the single major reason why they abandoned the horse aspect of their faith. Horses let people travel and people traveling leads to all sorts of heretical and forbidden things into the County. You know, like 'ideas' and stuff...

[Rob Darvall]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

My idea here isn't to 'make Yelmalio with serial numbers filed off'. My intention is to make a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities with separate myths who share similar but not identical portfolios.

This runs afoul of the 'real' evidence of effective worship in each others' temples. I think it's one thing to be saying 

 

3 hours ago, svensson said:

'So what? That's not how we do that and it doesn't matter to us."

and another to be saying 'well I didn't REALLY get this power from Yelmalio cos I'm an Elmali' despite being in the big Y's temple, using his rites etc. Neither your hypothetical Baptist or Lutheran denies Christ as their saviour. So being able to worship effectively, which in Glorantha has tangible effects, in each others sacred places indicates that this IS the same god.
It is possible, naturally this IS fiction after all, to have YGV in this respect. However, given Jeff's repeated insistence on their being the same I get the feeling this is going to be a pretty big divergence from where Glorantha goes, making it harder to sustain over the long term.

51 minutes ago, svensson said:

And just to digress a little bit, it occurs to me that the Yelmalion basic sense of xenophobia and their deep seated need for social control is the single major reason why they abandoned the horse aspect of their faith.

1) Did they abandon it or is this just an artifact of 'Borderlands' etc where Prax killed off all the horses? Most of our Yelmalio information comes from 'Sun County', 'Sandheart' etc.

2) I can see a religious imperitive for abandoning horses. MUCH less danger of breaking a gease if the object (a horse) is rarely around you. A reverance for horses curtailing their use to the point where they become a logistical burden.

I'm sure there's other reasons but I think the loss of horses (in Sun Dome County at least) came first leading to the insularity.

[svensson]

@Rob Darvall

1. Elmal, Yelmalio, and how worshipers see it.

There is a distinct difference between those who believe a religious doctrine and the objective facts base on evidence. The doctrinal split between Elmal and Yelmalio is based on God Learner writings and our own very secular take on comparative theology. The way I see the split is that those who are dissatisfied with the Storm Pantheon or Orlanthi culture became Yelmalions and those who were satisfied with Elmal's place and the culture that went along with it stayed with Elmal. My statement of 'that's not the way we do it, so what?' is from the believer's standpoint not a doctor of divinity's lectern.

2. The Sun Domes and Horses.

In WF15, @Jeff Richards portrays the County of Vanntar [the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass] as also having given up the horse to focus on their Templar phalanxes. If this is common among all SDTs, it could be that Yelmalion doctrine has backed off the horse aspect of the portfolio out of respect of Yelm's focus on it. But a very beneficial side effect of that for Sky cultists isolated in a land full of Storm and Earth worshipers is the emphasis on xenophobia and the social control that a dismounted population gives the temple hierarchy. Less people traveling means fewer people getting silly ideas in their heads... you know, foolish things like free will, personal choice, personal responsibility, dissent with government....

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is probably not quite an annual Hill of Gold, which IMG remains a more personal spiritual adventure.

I suppose the Hill of Gold is the Yelmalian equivalent of I Fought We Won. There appears to be a period in the Greater Darkness when even the Last Light was failing, and the Lightfore may have experienced a sojourn to the Underworld. That would not be anything like a Lightbringers' Quest.

 

3 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

In the older material, when Orlanth departs he entrusts the defense of the stead to Elmal and Vinga who defend his people while he is away.

According to the Dara Happans, the Ram People were led by their king Elmalus when they invaded Urvairinus's Dara Happa. Elmal apparently did a lot more than just guard the stead (although these invasions might be equated with the sons of Vingkot contending for the inheritance of their father's crown/torc/whatever).

[Rob Darvall]

47 minutes ago, svensson said:

@Rob Darvall

1. Elmal, Yelmalio, and how worshipers see it.

 My statement of 'that's not the way we do it, so what?' is from the believer's standpoint not a doctor of divinity's lectern.

It's not a matter of a 'doctor of divinity' but of what the worshippers experience on walking into a temple. Their god is THERE. An Elmali walking into a sun dome experiences this as would a Yelmalian walking into a shrine to Elmal. Both can go  'that's not the way we do it, so what?' but neither will deny that they worship the same god. Their experience is that they do not. In rules terms worship by either in either sacred space returns the rune points.

Elmal can be a seperate way to worship but not "...a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities..." unless you're taking that extra step into variance which makes the 2 into distinct gods. 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

In WF15, @Jeff Richards portrays the County of Vanntar [the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass] as also having given up the horse to focus on their Templar phalanxes.

The grazers have elite magical cavalry archers: the golden bow spirit  society, who fire flaming arrows.  They also rule over an underclass of vendref farmers. Such an underclass is going to be necessary given a primarily mounted military and restricted pasturelands.

The Vanntar Templars don't, because they are a relatively egalitarian society, much more in line with orlanthi cultural ideals. Everyone fights and everyone farms. They still use cavalry as scouts, which are even more important for a force that can rarely safely withdraw. Luckily that is the one military task Yelmalio magic is actually good at.

Elmal survives as a cultural tradition and identity amongst the tribal orlanthi because those who follow it can initiate and learn magic at the sun dome temples. if, at your adulthood initiation you are favoured by Elmal in orlanth's hall, the elders will direct you to serve a tour of duty with the Templars, likely as a cavalry scout. You will come back with the skills and experience required to hold a status as an Elmalthane.

Without that, there wouldn't be the numbers for Elmal to be anything more than just another thunder brother.

 

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

My idea here isn't to 'make Yelmalio with serial numbers filed off'. My intention is to make a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities

3 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

It is possible … to have YGV in this respect. However, … this is going to be a pretty big divergence from where Glorantha goes, making it harder to sustain over the long term.

Your Glorantha may vary, but only a little bit? @svensson isn’t trying to force the rest of us to follow him, so if he wants to do a difficult thing, why not encourage him rather than reaching for the pail of cold water? He is not telling us to go out and kill puppies for Satan Wakboth, is he?

You’d think the only way to end the Elmal–Yelmalio war in fandom was to elevate the Monrogh doctrine to the level of IRL article of faith. I can have my variant Yelmalio (who is not Lightfore; as for Elmal: never heard of her), he can have his Elmal (who is not Lightfore), and Chaosium can have its Yelmalio = Elmal = Lightfore. Everybody goes their own way and everybody is happy. War is over today if you want it — would that it were always that easy.

For a fandom that follows a world with contradictory myths, we are too concerned with the one true way. Sure, one doesn’t want to pass off variant Gloranthas as canonical, but: [a] it was clear from word one that that wasn’t being done; [b] aren’t we assured that the only people who need to worry about canon are writers of official Chaosium products? These days it is YGWV rather than YGMV, so isn’t heterodoxy the new orthodoxy?

I am not saying we shouldn’t argue about how best to vary Gloranthas, but can’t we do it in a light, fun, mutually encouraging way? Let a hundred flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend. We are not heroquesting to enforce the straight strait way of Brithos, we are gobbling the Mee Vorala and aiming for a technicolour palimpsest of glorious incompatibility, no?

Computer says ‘no’.
Word of Jeff is …
Goes against all the known facts.

Is that MGF? Is it boring gatekeeping? You have purchased your toy, now I am going to supervise your play in case you do something that’d make Jesus Malkion blush.

On the subject of doing difficult things, I found this press release from the Seven Mothers (some claim it was adapted from something from the desk of Argrath that fell backwards through time along with a pair of Speedos):

Spoiler

We choose to bring back the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Also, let's face it, humans have long memories. Look at our own world and some of the ancient differences which cause trouble today. Even WITH Mythical/Heroquesting support, the timeframe involved is much too short for the type of wholesale replacement that is being proposed.

Well, sometimes. Sometimes it is — that favourite BRP meme — Orwell’s we have always been at war with Peloria. Sometimes religious communities change quickly — but in the “new reality” they keep giving off the vibe that it has always been this way.

Here — In Time of Schism — is a thing about the Wee Frees and Scottish nationalism. “Monrogh” is supposed to sound Scottish, right? (Plus he had a mountain to climb.)

Spoiler

Forbes’s conservative supporters seem to think that she should be given a Get Out of Jail Free card: it’s not her fault, it’s her faith and that of her community. Underlying this is a theological ‘blackboxing’, as if these beliefs are the axioms of her church and should be beyond criticism. There are two problems with this idea: the obvious one is that some of these beliefs would serve to proscribe the actions of others; the other is that the views of the Free Church of Scotland are not stable truths. In the 1970s, for instance, when I was a child, most Free Church ministers would have considered it immodest for a woman to attend worship without wearing a hat. Not now. They used to be strict about singing only Scottish Metrical Psalms. Instrumental accompaniment by an organ was once taboo, but choruses and praise bands are now widespread. Dancing is no longer a sin, or going to concerts, pubs or the cinema. No one drowns their bagpipes or burns their fiddle as a hallmark of grace, as once happened in the Highlands. In the 1960s, one Free Church minister took Sabbath observance so earnestly that he forbade his congregation from observing British Summer Time, on the grounds that the clocks had changed at 2 a.m. on a Sunday morning. Church members can now watch television or take a ferry on the Sabbath, a far cry from the days when the entire western seaboard was locked down every Sunday. I can’t even remember the last time I heard someone arguing that the pope is the Antichrist. — Fraser MacDonald

Maybe one day the Orlanthi clergy won’t decry Sedenya as the herald of Wakboth. Maybe one day soon and with no heroquesting support. Because we have always lived in a retcon world, as Orwell grasped — no spookiness required.