When Telmori are tainted by chaos ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

The Telmori generally have Chaos 20%. It comes from their adulthood initiation into Telmor, whose traditions have included Chaos ever since the late First Age. It's part of their identity, and what gives them *very* powerful magic such as Wolfhide (which can thankfully be cast with the Beast Rune too!)  So what about Telmori? They have no problem with it. Most Princes of Sartar had no problem with it (the Telmori Royal Guard protected a lot of them). Many clans around Sartar *did* have a problem with it, but frankly the Telmori were just minding their own business until someone came to poke them with a sharp stick. Apart from that one regrettable incident, they don't raid or do "eeeviil things" more or less than anybody else. I think the main problem is that (1) they're Hsunschen people who adopt stone-age ways of living, and the nearby Sartarites are bigoted assholes, (2) they have like I said very powerful magic, and the nearby Sartarites are sore losers, and (3) they have a Chaos taint, and the nearby Sartarites are bigoted assh... wait, I already said that.

 

What Ludo said disturbs me

As there are "good" Telmori (aka Telmor initiates) who have no chaotic taint.

As (I may be wrong) those Telmori are among Telmori  tribes where there are "chaotic" Telmori.

How is it possible that the taint comes with initiation to Telmor ?

 

I believed the curse (= chaos, not Talor's one) was caused by the "bloodlines" who followed Gbaji more than the god itself ?

And what about the telmori tribes based on other regions, without any relationships with Gbaji ? (btw is there such tribes ?)

Edited May 11, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

57 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I believed the curse (= chaos, not Talor's one) was caused by the "bloodlines" who followed Gbaji more than the god itself ?

This seems more than likely, yes. 

57 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And what about the telmori tribes based on other regions, without any relationships with Gbaji ? (btw is there such tribes ?)

Yes - the tribes in Ralios are typically not affected. We just don't see them in the Dragon Pass material - Dragon Pass seems to have none of the Pure.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dragon Pass seems to have none of the Pure.

do you mean all telmori in dragon pass are tainted ? (except the exception of course 😛 )

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do you mean all telmori in dragon pass are tainted ? (except the exception of course 😛 )

Yes. And not ”Orlanthi all” either.

[Brian Duguid]

There are Pure Ones outside Ralios, but not many. It's not impossible that you could find one in Dragon Pass.

Do Cursed Telmori children transform every Wildday? Even the babies?

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Do Cursed Telmori children transform every Wildday? Even the babies?

that's a part of the question

Are children already tainted by chaos (aka the 20% ?)

Or the initiation is like a trigger ? and if you are heir of cursed telmori you are cursed by default ?

Or is there a choice during initiation and you follow one way (pure) or another one (cursed) . do they know in Ralios  what is the "good" way (or they only know the "good" way) so they stay pure, when in Sartar they are unable to "fix" it? Or they accept it because that's their tradition ?

[Brian Duguid]

To ask the question another way: what is the Gloranthan mechanism by which ancestral sin is transmissible, yea - even unto them beyond the third and fourth generations?

The Trollkin Curse was sent against the trolls by Gbaji, but it was its harm to Kyger Litor that affected their fertility, just as it was defeat by Yelm that had earlier affects Korasting, the mother of many. Trolls inherit the curse because it is a harm to the essence of what makes them who they are, personified as their goddess.

I think perhaps Nysalor's blessing on the wolf-folk was similar; it was on the Telmori as a tribe, and so it changed Telmor himself in some way. The Cursed Ones inherit their magic from that part of Telmor which was polluted with Chaos (and then cursed by Talor). The Pure Ones inherit their magic from that part of Telmor that was not. These "parts" of Telmor could be different bloodlines (and hence the issue of ancestral sin); but if they are different faces of the corrupted or uncorrupted Telmor, then that holds out an easier prospect of change. A Cursed One could heroquest to become a Pure One by discovering a pathway to the uncorrupted Telmor; rather than having to "heal" the whole tribe by somehow cleansing Telmor of Nysalor's blessing entirely.

That all feels like fertile ground for YGMV, to me. It doesn't resolve the question of whether the children of Cursed Telmori are chaos-afflicted, but it allows a different answer to the question at the top of the thread:

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

How is it possible that the taint comes with initiation to Telmor ?

Nysalor's blessing was offered to all the children of Telmor. It manifests itself as an alteration to Telmor himself and so is inherited by Telmori initiates. However, as with the case of Elmal and Yelmalio, we know worshippers can have different experiences and understandings of the same god, both of which are valid in terms of their effect within the mundane world. Perhaps Telmor is like that.

[Eff]

Making the curse a product of initiation allows players to more easily justify violence against Telmori because now they chose evil/chaos, and it removes many kinds of thorny questions about whether collective punishment is bad from the equation by assuring us that no children are affected and nobody is affected unless they chose to be. As such, the intent might just be that there are no good Telmori in the context of areas intended for play, and "good Telmori" refused to initiate to Telmor.

[Jeff]

All Telmori become wolves on Wild day. That is their Chaos taint.

But this being Glorantha, there is an exception. Ostling Four-Wolf only became a wolf when he chose to. His son with Onelisin the Cat Witch, Kostajor Wolf Champion, also only became a wolf when he chose to. Both were kings of the Telmori, incredibly-long lived, and ruled the tribe from 1480 to 1620. Neither belonged to any clan of the Telmori (under Telmori customs, Kostajor belonged to the clan of Sartar) and yet both were undeniably Telmori and chiefs.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

All Telmori become wolves on Wild day. That is their Chaos taint.

But this being Glorantha, there is an exception. Ostling Four-Wolf only became a wolf when he chose to. His son with Onelisin the Cat Witch, Kostajor Wolf Champion, also only became a wolf when he chose to. Both were kings of the Telmori, incredibly-long lived, and ruled the tribe from 1480 to 1620. Neither belonged to any clan of the Telmori (under Telmori customs, Kostajor belonged to the clan of Sartar) and yet both were undeniably Telmori and chiefs.

And to give you all another secret - one of Kostajor's daughters later became the love-wife of Prince Salinarg, and was mother to Harsaltar, Enothea, and Benera - the children leaders of the Household of Death.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

All Telmori become wolves on Wild day. That is their Chaos taint.

mmm

all Telmori in dragon pass or all Telmori in glorantha ? does that mean there is no more Pure Ones even in Ralios ?

both options are fine to me, in one side, there are cursed bloodlines, in the other side there is a cursed god. Both proposes interesting stories

[Dr. Devici]

4 hours ago, Eff said:

Making the curse a product of initiation allows players to more easily justify violence against Telmori because now they chose evil/chaos, and it removes many kinds of thorny questions about whether collective punishment is bad from the equation by assuring us that no children are affected and nobody is affected unless they chose to be. As such, the intent might just be that there are no good Telmori in the context of areas intended for play, and "good Telmori" refused to initiate to Telmor.

Though to be clear, the RQG bestiary does specify children born of Telmori parents are automatically initiated into the cult, which is kind of interesting in and of itself.

[Lordabdul]

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What Ludo said disturbs me

LOL that makes me happy 😄

Anyway, @Jeff has mentioned elsewhere that the Telmori tribe in Sartar gets their Chaotic taint during cult initiation, i.e. Telmori kids don't have a Chaotic taint. I can't find a reference anymore, I think it might have been a Facebook comment. Hopefully I didn't misremember.

In my opinion, the god Telmor itself isn't Chaotic, but the initiation rituals aren't just limited to saying hello to him. It's very possible that the Chaotic Telmori of Sartar have extra bits in their initiations that tread along Nysalorean pathways (and gets them Wolfhide and other such things), while the non-Chaotic Telmori of Ralios have simpler, more traditional initiations that don't have these extra bits, don't provide as powerful magic, but also don't taint you with Chaos.

If you're interested in the Telmori and their relationship with Chaos, you should definitely check out these two notes from Jeff:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-telmori/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-telmori/

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Lordabdul

[metcalph]

My theory on why the Telmori are chaotic.  Nysalor taught them how to change at will through breaking the Cosmic Compromise in a specific way (he has form as can be seen at the Battle of Night and Day).  But breaking the Compromise causes chaos.  Ergo by changing at will (and later changing without will), the Telmori repeatedly break the Compromise and are chaotic.

[7Tigers]

56 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

LOL that makes me happy 😄

Anyway, @Jeff has mentioned elsewhere that the Telmori tribe in Sartar gets their Chaotic taint during cult initiation, i.e. Telmori kids don't have a Chaotic taint. I can't find a reference anymore, I think it might have been a Facebook comment. Hopefully I didn't misremember.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

My theory on why the Telmori are chaotic.  Nysalor taught them how to change at will through breaking the Cosmic Compromise in a specific way (he has form as can be seen at the Battle of Night and Day).  But breaking the Compromise causes chaos.  Ergo by changing at will (and later changing without will), the Telmori repeatedly break the Compromise and are chaotic.

But the Compromise is a pact among gods.  The Telmori are not parties to it, just like other mortals.  Not being parties to it. How can they break it?

[Richard S.]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

My theory on why the Telmori are chaotic.  Nysalor taught them how to change at will through breaking the Cosmic Compromise in a specific way (he has form as can be seen at the Battle of Night and Day).  But breaking the Compromise causes chaos.  Ergo by changing at will (and later changing without will), the Telmori repeatedly break the Compromise and are chaotic.

All Hsunchen can change their form at will using rune magic. What the Telmori got from Nysalor was a stronger wolf form that doesn't require rune magic to use, but it came with the caveat of being an unwilling transformation. It's chaotic because it was a gift from a chaos god.