Becoming a shaman of Daka Fal

[Manu]

Hi,

While reading the new Cult book of the Lightbringers, I saw the cult of Daka Fal. Their, it explain how to become a Priest-shaman.

And it looks a lot much easier than what is described in the rule book (on the shaman rules). Did I miss something? Or as Daka Fal is a rune cult, becoming Shaman-Priest is easier?

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, Manu said:

Hi,

While reading the new Cult book of the Lightbringers, I saw the cult of Daka Fal. Their, it explain how to become a Priest-shaman.

And it looks a lot much easier than what is described in the rule book (on the shaman rules). Did I miss something? Or as Daka Fal is a rune cult, becoming Shaman-Priest is easier?

It's mechanically easier, the bigger issue is the time getting spirit speech to 90% and having a sufficiently good spirit combat to take on what might be a big spirit and you can only do it once a year.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Quote

The ancestor’s Spirit Combat skill is equal to its POW×5. If the candidate can defeat the ancestor and reduce its magic points to 0, the spirit teaches the candidate the secrets of Daka Fal and awakens their fetch. The candidate becomes a full shaman (RuneQuest, pages 351–363) and must choose shamanic abilities and taboos

reading again these sentences, I'm not sure I understand well (vs core rules)

 

1) the Daka Fal shaman candidate meets an ancestor and not the bad man ( DF easier than "core" shaman)

2) the DF candidate must win when a "core" shaman must survive ( DF harder than "core" shaman)

3) the DF candidate must fight until the ancestor has 0 magic point (or until she loses) when a "core" shaman must fight 1d6 rounds

4) the DF candidate, only if she wins, gains one ability for each round she is victorious and "gains" one taboo for each round she loses. same than "core shaman" except it can be done after 30 rounds

 

Am I correct ?

or if a DF candidate is not able to win in 6 rounds it is a defeat (good bye, see you next year) ?

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Godlearner]

My quesiton is can one be a Daka Fal Priest or Godtalker without being a shaman.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

My quesiton is can one be a Daka Fal Priest or Godtalker without being a shaman.

Given that he has the spirit rune, it seems axiomatic to me that shamanism is central to the cult.  Considering that the Seshnegi have had ancestral worship in practically the first reference, the concept of a shamn-free cult would have been written up by now if it existed. 

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Considering that the Seshnegi have had ancestral worship in practically the first reference, the concept of a shamn-free cult would have been written up by now if it existed. 

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

Why deal with all the other types of spirit that a shaman deals with, if you are only concerned with ones family tree? These skils of Spirit Dance and Spirit Combat are extranious in this type of a situation. Imagine a family run Merchant house whihc traces its roots to the founder, who maybe contacted and may be able to teach some sort of magic or skill which is particular to this family. Why would being a shaman be a requirement for the head of the family?

[SDLeary]

50 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

Why deal with all the other types of spirit that a shaman deals with, if you are only concerned with ones family tree? These skils of Spirit Dance and Spirit Combat are extranious in this type of a situation. Imagine a family run Merchant house whihc traces its roots to the founder, who maybe contacted and may be able to teach some sort of magic or skill which is particular to this family. Why would being a shaman be a requirement for the head of the family?

Ancestor Worship certainly doesn't need a "Shaman", only an officiant that can communicate with ancestors. However, I would argue that above this officiant there would probably be a Shaman somewhere that would be able to teach the officiant the proper forms and rituals needed for ancestral interaction. Also, perhaps, to go out and find "gramps" again, as he seems to be incommunicado and wandering again JUST when he is needed!

You could keep everything within a family/organization, and hand down things internally, sans Shaman, but then you have the pleasure of possibly writing up variations for each family/organization that you create. Also, a way would have to be established for the learning of magic that an Ancestor lacks, as I imagine things would be restricted to only those spells that the Ancestor knew in life.

SDLeary

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

Duke Raus of Rone.  Is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper.  I would have previously said that he was a Carmanian but since then (Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers), there's undoubtedly a native Pelorian tradition that's suitable.  You think that to lead the household, one must be a shaman.  I disagree.  The shaman only leads the spiritual side of the family - for the temporal side, no shamanic status is required.

Considering that Duke Raus' ancestral worshipping status has been known for some time, I don't think people were unaware of the need for a non--shamanic ancestor worshipping cult.  More probably they looked at the possibility and decided against it for reasons that may or may not be the ones that I previously advanced.

 

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

Just have the lineage founder (or whoever you want) as a wyter. The "priest" would be head of the house, if you want any fancy stuff, add it to the wyter as spirit abilities from the Bestiary (like Daka Fal Rune magic or the ability to make spirits visible). The tools are all there.

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Duke Raus of Rone.  Is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper.  I would have previously said that he was a Carmanian but since then (Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers), there's undoubtedly a native Pelorian tradition that's suitable.  You think that to lead the household, one must be a shaman.  I disagree.  The shaman only leads the spiritual side of the family - for the temporal side, no shamanic status is required.

You are not disagreeing here. We are in total agreement. Duke Raus is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper. I feel he should be at least a Godtalker of Daka Fal, but there is no reason for him to be a shaman.

[g33k]

20 hours ago, Godlearner said:

My quesiton is can one be a Daka Fal Priest or Godtalker without being a shaman.

13 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

...

I am dubious about "Priest" -- you aren't talking about worship of a God with ancestor-worship.  How much would Daka Fal be interested in so insular a "Priest" as to only be in service to his/her own family?

I think Godtalker (in this context) is much more likely... but honestly would have a fair bit of overlap/similarity with "Assistant Shaman," i.e. would use those game-mechanics as Professional background.
 

13 hours ago, Godlearner said:

 ... These skils of Spirit Dance and Spirit Combat are extranious in this type of a situation. Imagine a family run Merchant house whihc traces its roots to the founder, who maybe contacted and may be able to teach some sort of magic or skill which is particular to this family. Why would being a shaman be a requirement for the head of the family?

The spirit world is strange and dangerous.
Not every ancestor is going to be friendly, is going to approve of the way you're acting as head-of-family.

Aso:  just because you're primarily interested in one particular ancestor-spirit, that's no reason to think that a great many other spirits (not necessarily ancestral) might not take interest in YOU.

[Godlearner]

27 minutes ago, g33k said:

The spirit world is strange and dangerous.
Not every ancestor is going to be friendly, is going to approve of the way you're acting as head-of-family.

Aso:  just because you're primarily interested in one particular ancestor-spirit, that's no reason to think that a great many other spirits (not necessarily ancestral) might not take interest in YOU.

This is all the caster's choice. Incarnate Ancestor says : 

This spell can be cast without naming the specific ancestor desired, in which case a random ancestor comes. 

I am not sying that there should not be shamans for the Daka Fal, I am saying that it should be possible for a Priest/Godtalker to exist without having to be a shaman.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am not sying that there should not be shamans for the Daka Fal, I am saying that it should be possible for a Priest/Godtalker to exist without having to be a shaman.

My idea is a little bit different

you may worship your ancestors in different way.

One way is dealing with all your ancestors, with the ability of summoning one of them or another one (somewhere you know the ancestors = the spirit) this way is the daka fal system, and the leader is the one who is able to deal with a lot of spirits (= shaman) so shaman = priest and priest = shaman

another way is to worship your ancestors as a group or only one ancestor (the founder, things like that) then I see it like a wyter: the community is the family and the leader of the family is bound with the wyter (bestiary p174)

then no need of any shaman, even no need of Daka Fal mask. Just be the leader, do the job as any community chief, respect the wyter/ancestor(s) and any requirements requested (here one family wyter may have different requirement than another, gm is free to create what she wants) and the wyter will protect your family

 

 

 

 

 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

another way is to worship your ancestors as a group or only one ancestor (the founder, things like that) then I see it like a wyter: the community is the family and the leader of the family is bound with the wyter (bestiary p174)

then no need of any shaman, even no need of Daka Fal mask. Just be the leader, do the job as any community chief, respect the wyter/ancestor(s) and any requirements requested (here one family wyter may have different requirement than another, gm is free to create what she wants) and the wyter will protect your family

To bind to a wyter implies that one is an initiate, so I would say you still need the Daka Fal mask. I think the idea works, but it still is a more complicated mechanic than to simply allow none shaman Godtalkers of Daka Fal.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Godlearner said:

This is all the caster's choice. Incarnate Ancestor says : 

This spell can be cast without naming the specific ancestor desired, in which case a random ancestor comes. 

I am not sying that there should not be shamans for the Daka Fal, I am saying that it should be possible for a Priest/Godtalker to exist without having to be a shaman.

But it almost certainly took a shaman to navigate (at least moderately) safely to that original ancestor, to form the relationship with a specific (Founding/Hero) ancestor.
You cannot IMHO / IMG use spells like "Incarnate Ancestor" from simple book-learning; you need to know them.

Unless they have a unique name, in which case maybe you can Name them (but Glorantha doesn't much seem to run on an Earthsea-style "True Names" system).
 

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

But it almost certainly took a shaman to navigate (at least moderately) safely to that original ancestor, to form the relationship with a specific (Founding/Hero) ancestor.

No, it would be passed down from generation to generation. 

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

You cannot IMHO / IMG use spells like "Incarnate Ancestor" from simple book-learning; you need to know them.

Its Rune magic, no book-learning for any of them.

[g33k]

51 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

No, it would be passed down from generation to generation...

You're thinking the very-first worshipers, the first God-Talker, personally knowing the Founder?
That can work, sometimes, I think.

Sometimes, though, such families don't immediately begin worshiping ancestrally, they transition slowly, across generations, from whatever god(s) they worshiped before their hero/ancestor.

 

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

...  Its Rune magic, no book-learning for any of them.

IMO *personal* ancestral magic requires that 1st-person acquaintance; if you don't KNOW a specific ancestor, you cannot summon / incarnate / etc them.
When I mentioned "book learning" I meant learning of an ancestor from books / tales.

Once you have a tradition, of course, there is that route to have previously dealt with said Ancestor personally!

But that very-1st worshiper... that might have needed a Shaman to jump-start the process, unless it was a Living Hero getting worship, who was the Founder (or those who knew the Founder began worship before the generational change rendered the Founder a purely-historical figure).

YGWobviouslyV !

[French Desperate WindChild]

 

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

To bind to a wyter implies that one is an initiate, so I would say you still need the Daka Fal mask

 

Quote

depending on the local traditions the priest might be a Rune Priest, Rune Lord, God-talker, or even just an initiate.

so as it depends on local traditions, we can say that the family tradition is the elder, the choosen, or any specific condition of this family; you just need to sacrifice one POW to this ancestor , etc... wyter is not linked to daka fal at all. And that allows that this wyter may have one rune spell

 

I prefer this freedom, without any rule change. Of course I just share my opinion, and you can houserule what you want 🙂  (I do it for other things)

 

Note that i apply the same rule for any local spirit who is not strongly associated with any cult

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

To bind to a wyter implies that one is an initiate, so I would say you still need the Daka Fal mask. I think the idea works, but it still is a more complicated mechanic than to simply allow none shaman Godtalkers of Daka Fal.

You don't bind a wyter, all you need is the same shared passion in this case Love Family. As the wyter priest, you pay a point of POW to link to it. Give the wyter 

Spirit abilities: Rune magic

Rune magic: Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor

Other alternatives include: Active Possession, spirit magic or as suggested in the wyter section of the rules, just treat it as a subcult of another cult. Raus could easily have ancestor worship as a subcult of the Seven Mothers, just give the subcult a few of the Daka Fal spells. See Votank in LB as well.

 

[Godlearner]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Raus could easily have ancestor worship as a subcult of the Seven Mothers

An interesting proposition: A user defined subcult ..... I guess that would work for any 'major' cult. 

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

An interesting proposition: A user defined subcult ..... I guess that would work for any 'major' cult. 

Wyters as subcults has been in the Core Rules since it they were published. It doesn't have to be a major cult, it just has to be local.

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

It doesn't have to be a major cult, it just has to be local.

I think it would be a bit more restrictive than just being local. I can not see this working for Humakt for example, even if the shrine is just down the street. I would say if would have to be a cult that is widely worshiped in the community.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I think it would be a bit more restrictive than just being local.

Says local on page 287

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I can not see this working for Humakt for example, even if the shrine is just down the street. I would say if would have to be a cult that is widely worshiped in the community.

I suspect that a Humakt ancestor worship subcult exists somewhere, I certainly have the descendants of Indrodar Greydog worshipping him as an ancestor cult via Humakt. 

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Says local on page 287

It also says that it is a Community spirit.

 

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Wyters as subcults

This worship is often combined with that of a local cult, such as Orlanth or Ernalda, making the wyter a local subcult of the greater cult.

This is specifically relates to passing magic point. Nothing about getting Rune spells from it. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:39 PM, David Scott said:

Rune magic: Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor

I see this as less of a Glorantha thing, and more of an RQ thing.

We players use such terms.

In Glorantha, I'd see it as the spirit itself giving one of its relatives a way to call him/her to allow it to do things. And, since said spirit is a Hero, it's got some way to do this. "I give you the ability to call upon me when you are in need" or similar.

So, again, no need for a shaman. Clear reason for a GT or priest to be able to do it.

And, ultimately, not too unlike a spirit society, where each spirit has some connection - in this case, by blood relationship while they were alive.