The Illuminated Munchkin Challenge

[Jens]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:30 PM, Jens said:

I’m guessing the 8 point list will be coming next week in the Mythology book,

Turns out I guessed wrong- only a single mention of Nysalor as the Illuminator, no other details on Illumination.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

That entirely depends on how overt your Thanatari is.  Heads are large, and hard to explain in public.  It is far less risky to just bookworm your way through scrolls and books in a library, especially when there are multiple copies and one might not be missed.  Consume Mind is far more high risk, but the rewards are great too.

I presume you're referring to Devour Book here...

If we're allowing Heroquest powers in the thread, then I'd say a Lhankor Mhy should have a Duplicate Book/Mind spell - similar, but no killing or erasure required. (In fact, I envisage this as being Sorcery - not overly different to a combination of Total Recall and Speak to Mind (for the Mind version). I can see the need to prune it to just 1 skill (say, 1D6/hour for Communication (especially language), Knowledge and Magic skills, with appropriate reductions in time - say, 3 hours for 1D6 for Weapons, Agility and Manipulation skills... it obviously requires Duration.. However, this is just for skills - not Spirit or Rune spells).

[Shiningbrow]

I just realised that I've been a complete non-Munchkin!!!!

Although the Lie to get a great Enhance INT spell fired off, I figure those hundreds of POW that the congregation is putting into the enchantment would maybe be better for more powerful spells - especially Rune spells!!!

 

I'm not going to go through the RBoM to decide which one would be best to win this competition's various categories.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Shiningbrow

[Malin]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:32 PM, Jens said:

Turns out I guessed wrong- only a single mention of Nysalor as the Illuminator, no other details on Illumination.

Yeah, I have been looking everywhere for an eight-point list. Maybe @David Scott misspoke and meant six? Or maybe he has access to unpublished stuff?

With illumination now on the table in my campaign I would love to see if that list was published somewhere...

[PhilHibbs]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:39 AM, Shiningbrow said:

No need for synergy - nor most Rune Magic.

Eurmal's Lie is OP in the right situations - cos there's no resistance rolls.

Most lies could be revealed with a Divination. Yeah, I know, I'm such a spoilsport, but it's well known how much I despise munchkinnery.

[PhilHibbs]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:32 PM, Jens said:

Turns out I guessed wrong- only a single mention of Nysalor as the Illuminator, no other details on Illumination.

Mythology was never going to have any game mechanics, but I am surprised that the subject is not mentioned at all.

[Jens]

46 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most lies could be revealed with a Divination.

Which is fitting, since both cost Rune points (assuming your God would be familiar with the subject of the Lie. Of course, impacted people wouldn't have any reason to doubt the Lie themselves and cast Divination, and if you use it for an immediate benefit like MPs revealing the truth wouldn't strip that benefit.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most lies could be revealed with a Divination. Yeah, I know, I'm such a spoilsport, but it's well known how much I despise munchkinnery.

Firstly, I would question the usefulness of that, especially if the Lie is something that the deity may not have access to knowing. Secondly, Divination is susceptible to misinterpretation. And thirdly, a second Lie in that situation would override whatever results you get from the Divination, especially given point 2.

 

Also, as @Jens points out above, those hearing the Lie are not going to do any Divinations to find out their deity's perspective on it.Especially when the High or Chief Priest commands it. And also especially when it falls within the bounds of 'truth' - ie. given the upcoming Hero Wars that everyone can feel in the air, it would make a lot of sense to start these sorts of preparations. (for that matter, I would expect various groups to be doing something like this anyway... so the only bit about the Lie that's going to be in question is the Trickster person taking it away with them....)

[g33k]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most lies could be revealed with a Divination. Yeah, I know, I'm such a spoilsport, but it's well known how much I despise munchkinnery.

In general, they "could" be; but often won't be revealed:  the Eurmali's Lie will be believed!  Why waste Rune Points checking on Known Facts???

By Lying to many at once, you also get the mutually-reinforcing community-driven "oh yes, everyone knows that!" effect.
 
And yes, Phil -- you clearly despise munchkinnery every bit as much as you despise the Lie spell.

Edited October 15, 2023 by g33k

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Malin said:

Yeah, I have been looking everywhere for an eight-point list.

A quick search reveals:

It hasn't changed.

13 hours ago, Malin said:

Maybe @David Scott misspoke and meant six? Or maybe he has access to unpublished stuff?

Note that I'm also @Scotty, @David Scott is my fan account.

[Jens]

For those comparing, the 2 new abilities in addition to the original 6 are:

• Overcome Runes or Passions
• Embrace Runic Opposites

[Malin]

Thank you SO MUCH! My search skills failed me here... of course it would be under something Arkat related 💚

[g33k]

And for those who want the info contextualized within this thread:

Quote

1. Secret Knowledge
2. Overcome Runes or Passions
3. Embrace Runic Opposites
4. Sense Illumination in Others
5. Immunity to Detect Chaos/Law Skills or Spells
6. Power to Ignore Cult Restrictions Cult
7. Immunity to Spirits of Reprisal
8. The Ability to Illuminate Others

-- Cults Book, Gen Con Draft, 2019.

And (regarding the list of 8, above):

Quote

... our knowledge of illumination has moved on.
Illuminates no longer automatically get all eight of the powers.
Not all automatically have the "Power to Ignore Cult Restrictions".
As you move down the list of abilities they get less common.
Everyone gets 1, most get 2 and 3.
You can use your illumination skill to work them.
There are also abilities not listed.

Note particularly that last one!!!  Kind of a license to spread illumination further...

[Darius West]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:35 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I just realised that I've been a complete non-Munchkin!!!!

Although the Lie to get a great Enhance INT spell fired off, I figure those hundreds of POW that the congregation is putting into the enchantment would maybe be better for more powerful spells - especially Rune spells!!!

 

I'm not going to go through the RBoM to decide which one would be best to win this competition's various categories.

THAT'S the spirit !

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, g33k said:

In general, they "could" be; but often won't be revealed:  the Eurmali's Lie will be believed!  Why waste Rune Points checking on Known Facts???

By Lying to many at once, you also get the mutually-reinforcing community-driven "oh yes, everyone knows that!" effect.
 
And yes, Phil -- you clearly despise munchkinnery every bit as much as you despise the Lie spell.

Now imagine stacking that with Divination Block from Lanbril.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now imagine stacking that with Divination Block from Lanbril.

Just to rain on your parade - Divination Block relates only to a "definable material object". I'm not seeing how you'd make that work in this instance.

(personally, that seems a complete waste .... ok, sure you can't get who actually held the knife, but you could see or get information about the event through other questions/targets)

[Darius West]

On 10/16/2023 at 9:34 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Just to rain on your parade - Divination Block relates only to a "definable material object". I'm not seeing how you'd make that work in this instance.

(personally, that seems a complete waste .... ok, sure you can't get who actually held the knife, but you could see or get information about the event through other questions/targets)

You raise a good point, but a definable material object can be made the subject of a lie and then div blocked.  For example:  This ratty old yurt is actually Yada's (son of Tada) underpants, and it grants great herd fertility, so why not trade one of your tribal treasures for it?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

You raise a good point, but a definable material object can be made the subject of a lie and then div blocked.  For example:  This ratty old yurt is actually Yada's (son of Tada) underpants, and it grants great herd fertility, so why not trade one of your tribal treasures for it?

Oh, I know how it could be used. And that's profiteering nicely.

However, I was thinking in the context of lying to the entire congregation about needing to make this super-powerful enchanted object, because X deity said it should be so.... I don't think I can come up with a 'definable material object' for that.

[davecake]

On 10/9/2023 at 6:00 PM, Shiningbrow said:

You only need to have one of the cult's Runes at 50% - so, you could have your Truth/Illusion sitting at that.

I said effective. I don’t consider having your Rune magic only work half the time as very effective. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I said effective. I don’t consider having your Rune magic only work half the time as very effective. 

Oh, I should have realised!

This line of argument is completely irrelevant - because Illuminates are no longer restricted to having to trade-off opposed Rune percentages!! So, yes, 89% in both Truth and Illusion!

(besides which, for my guy to work, they don't need to have effective IO Rune spells... just access to the IO congregation)

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 10/6/2023 at 4:05 PM, Darius West said:

The Rules:  Your character starts as an illuminate.  They can join any cult, provided they meet the requirements for initiation.  They have 15 in every stat, 3 RP, and can be of any RQG background.  The year is 1625 of the 3rd Age, so only cults from the 3rd Age apply.  They can learn 50% in any skill they can gain access to each year.  They gain 2 POW every year.  If they can gain access to powers that increase their power gain or their access to skills, then they may use them as well.

 

1625, initiate of Babeester gor. Esrolian heavy infantery

spells Axe Transe, Shield, Slash =3RP / disrupt, , strength. skills : focus on 2H axe (>90%), orate & battle (target 75% if possible) , First aid (25%),  Animal Lore(25%), Plant Lore (25%).

then find a daka fal shaman in your family and start to learn spirit combat

 

1625  -1628 (end of the year). focus on 2H axe (>150%  need 60%) battle ( >100% need 25%), orate( >100% need 25%)

initiate Daka Fal

and learn shamanic skills with the rest : 90% = 4years * 50 =200 - (60+25+25)

learn bladesharp 4

add 1 RP per year (spell as you wish), and keep 1POW -> POW =19 = 15 + 8 -1(initiation) - 3 (rune pools, I prefer bab's pool -> 6RP)

 

1629 - 1631: focus on shamanic skills ( 100%. I would say that your spirit combat is > 120 or 150 ? ) and new pelorian (30% + comm bonus of course) then +20% in intimidate

add 4 RP in bab's (10) now your POW is 21 (19 + 6 - 4)

1632 become a DF shaman

depending on your success, try to obtain "spell extension (bladesharp is good)" then "soul expansion" (until 24, not during the initiation but during your career ?)

learn skills to become Eurmal initiate

POW: 15 (21 + 2 - 8 )

Fetch: 8

1633 visit Peloria, find a Eurmali murderer subcult. intimidate him/her. If you fail, kill and find another one. Then become murderer initiate.

learn crack (2) and strike (1)
then kill the eurmali.

 

for skill, raise Orate and shamanic skills. If your battle is not yet 100% try to get it

 

POW: 14 (15+2-3)

Fetch: 8

1634 back to your land

Find another eurmali, intimidate or charm. learn lie (of course what did you believe 😛 ). No need to kill the eurmali but if it is your pleasure don't hesitate

POW: 14 (14+2-2)

Fetch: 8

Bab's RP = 10 / Dak's RP = 1 / Eurmal RP = 5

1635 +

skills do what you want

Raise your POW  and your Fetch.

you are now able to hire a full army and conquer your own queendom.

with your battle skill you know if your army is superior of your opponent.

when your army is the strongest, use orate and lie to convince other to flee or betray (less deads in your army, next battle would be easier

when you army has 50% chance, use orate and lie to convince other to flee or betray. Now your army is the strongest

when your army is the weakest, challenge in a duel your opponent. Use Orate and lie to convince the ennemy that one death of a champion is better than hundreds deaths

You are your own champion (use bab's + eurmal murderer). In all cases your reputation will gain +10% or more per year. Powerful people will join you, you may visit godtime and become more and more powerful.

 

1650 age probably cannot impact you anymore. You have your own herocult, get POW sacrifice from your worshippers (= all your general, guards and politicians who want your protection). Nochet is undoubtedly your capital city. Ernalda priestesses are under your protection anywhere (if required with thick heads, like the feathered queen... well you are eurmal the murderer right ?)

POW 24

Fetch 100

Hero pool 20+,

Visit emperors (red, wind, east, west...), seduce them, tell them that their business are their business and their business stop at the boundary of your business (Esrolia ? + Sartar ?  + Seshnela ? and of course any Earth temples)

Make friends with merfolks.

Make friends with local anything (trolls, malkioni, ...)

Declare that under your rule, anyone can worship anyone if they keep peace with farmers  and merfolks

No tax for those who don't farm the Earth (wood and mine is considered as farming the Earth) but merchants and travelers have to organize and manage roads in harmony with earth temple.

 

1652 thanks to merfolk, visit Magasta, seduce him, get power from him.

Then you may decide to stop the Flood or...

you are eurmal the murderer initiate after all, and you can breath in deep water, so what's next

then visit the emperors, intimidate them, by offering them back all their drowned warriors bodies. Tell them that if they are not able to manage their business on earth as they don't know water... they have to ask themselves if their business should not be only middle air and sky. Earth and water should be the Queen's business, thanks goodbye.

Edited October 20, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[davecake]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:49 PM, Shiningbrow said:

This line of argument is completely irrelevant - because Illuminates are no longer restricted to having to trade-off opposed Rune percentages!! So, yes, 89% in both Truth and Illusion!

It’s just non-trivial to achieve, takes a few years at least. 
But your scheme relies on Lie being so powerful that hundreds of sorcerers will give up POW for enchantments based on one Lie spell, despite the sorcerers being Truth magic masters with access to Logical Clarity, which would defend against Lie.  So whatever, we clearly aren’t engaging with any practical considerations here. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s just non-trivial to achieve, takes a few years at least. 

Well, yes... but that's what this whole thread is about! (try doing the same thing at Char creation)

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

So whatever, we clearly aren’t engaging with any practical considerations here. 

 

Ummm... it's a munchkin challenge... what do you expect?? 😛

RE: SotLM - hmmmm.... for 2 points you get complete immunity... I don't think that's how sorcery is supposed to work! I would expect a MP v MP challenge - and so the Lie could be boosted. (given that our Eurmali is also an IO worshipper and sorcerer, this would be known.)

I'd also counter your argument with the fact that this is being cast inside (or near) a central congregation - why would any sorcerer have that spell up while in their home city? Especially with the (possibly debilitating) lack of augmentations (useful for helping cast their sorcery).

[Darius West]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:31 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

1625, initiate of Babeester gor. Esrolian heavy infantery

spells Axe Transe, Shield, Slash =3RP / disrupt, , strength. skills : focus on 2H axe (>90%), orate & battle (target 75% if possible) , First aid (25%),  Animal Lore(25%), Plant Lore (25%).

then find a daka fal shaman in your family and start to learn spirit combat

 

1625  -1628 (end of the year). focus on 2H axe (>150%  need 60%) battle ( >100% need 25%), orate( >100% need 25%)

initiate Daka Fal

and learn shamanic skills with the rest : 90% = 4years * 50 =200 - (60+25+25)

learn bladesharp 4

add 1 RP per year (spell as you wish), and keep 1POW -> POW =19 = 15 + 8 -1(initiation) - 3 (rune pools, I prefer bab's pool -> 6RP)

 

1629 - 1631: focus on shamanic skills ( 100%. I would say that your spirit combat is > 120 or 150 ? ) and new pelorian (30% + comm bonus of course) then +20% in intimidate

add 4 RP in bab's (10) now your POW is 21 (19 + 6 - 4)

1632 become a DF shaman

depending on your success, try to obtain "spell extension (bladesharp is good)" then "soul expansion" (until 24, not during the initiation but during your career ?)

learn skills to become Eurmal initiate

POW: 15 (21 + 2 - 8 )

Fetch: 8

1633 visit Peloria, find a Eurmali murderer subcult. intimidate him/her. If you fail, kill and find another one. Then become murderer initiate.

learn crack (2) and strike (1)
then kill the eurmali.

 

for skill, raise Orate and shamanic skills. If your battle is not yet 100% try to get it

 

POW: 14 (15+2-3)

Fetch: 8

1634 back to your land

Find another eurmali, intimidate or charm. learn lie (of course what did you believe 😛 ). No need to kill the eurmali but if it is your pleasure don't hesitate

POW: 14 (14+2-2)

Fetch: 8

Bab's RP = 10 / Dak's RP = 1 / Eurmal RP = 5

1635 +

skills do what you want

Raise your POW  and your Fetch.

you are now able to hire a full army and conquer your own queendom.

with your battle skill you know if your army is superior of your opponent.

when your army is the strongest, use orate and lie to convince other to flee or betray (less deads in your army, next battle would be easier

when you army has 50% chance, use orate and lie to convince other to flee or betray. Now your army is the strongest

when your army is the weakest, challenge in a duel your opponent. Use Orate and lie to convince the ennemy that one death of a champion is better than hundreds deaths

You are your own champion (use bab's + eurmal murderer). In all cases your reputation will gain +10% or more per year. Powerful people will join you, you may visit godtime and become more and more powerful.

 

1650 age probably cannot impact you anymore. You have your own herocult, get POW sacrifice from your worshippers (= all your general, guards and politicians who want your protection). Nochet is undoubtedly your capital city. Ernalda priestesses are under your protection anywhere (if required with thick heads, like the feathered queen... well you are eurmal the murderer right ?)

POW 24

Fetch 100

Hero pool 20+,

Visit emperors (red, wind, east, west...), seduce them, tell them that their business are their business and their business stop at the boundary of your business (Esrolia ? + Sartar ?  + Seshnela ? and of course any Earth temples)

Make friends with merfolks.

Make friends with local anything (trolls, malkioni, ...)

Declare that under your rule, anyone can worship anyone if they keep peace with farmers  and merfolks

No tax for those who don't farm the Earth (wood and mine is considered as farming the Earth) but merchants and travelers have to organize and manage roads in harmony with earth temple.

 

1652 thanks to merfolk, visit Magasta, seduce him, get power from him.

Then you may decide to stop the Flood or...

you are eurmal the murderer initiate after all, and you can breath in deep water, so what's next

then visit the emperors, intimidate them, by offering them back all their drowned warriors bodies. Tell them that if they are not able to manage their business on earth as they don't know water... they have to ask themselves if their business should not be only middle air and sky. Earth and water should be the Queen's business, thanks goodbye.

This is great!  A very detailed plan, and a good abuse of the rules as written.  I am a little surprised that you didn't opt to abuse the possibility of a knowledge religion due to the training and earning advantages they provide.  Nevertheless, a 100POW Fetch is pretty indomitable, and this puts you in the lead for the Great Meataxe imo.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:20 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Oh, I know how it could be used. And that's profiteering nicely.

However, I was thinking in the context of lying to the entire congregation about needing to make this super-powerful enchanted object, because X deity said it should be so.... I don't think I can come up with a 'definable material object' for that.

I suppose the possibilities would largely depend on the deities where the enchantment is taking place.  Still, there are logical limitations on what is possible.  Say, that gives me of an idea for another topic...  Lottery Swords.