The Illuminated Munchkin Challenge

[French Desperate WindChild]

this one is a little bit different than my previous one :

A rpg is not only rolling dices (and sometimes there is no dice at all) but is too social interactions.

In this option, I focus the character on "how to obtain powerful results in any domain even if you are not able to have powerful skills/spells/abilities in any "adventurer's " domain

 

the sugar baby career (SBC)

 

two cults seem to me the best to start this career.

- Initiate of Uleria  

Spells : Erotocomatose Lucidity, Community and Unity. Asap Extension (seems there is no automatic « common spells »

- Initiate of Ernalda

Spells : Charisma, Arouse passion, Bless Champion

 

Then choose a strategy !

There are two ways then to gain « levels » in the SBC. It is important to decide the path you will follow (it is possible of course to change during the story but it would not be optimized so not a « munchkin way » 😊  )

We need the spells effects of the 2 goddesses two optimize our progression :

 

First path : become initiate of both cults. And one day of the joker of course (We need….. lie !)

In this path, you have another choice to make : become smart (INT) or resistant (CON)

 

Second path : Heroquesting and Sorcery. Harder than the first path (well we don’t have the rules) but for an « end game » perspective more powerful results.

In this path too, you have another choice to make : become dependant (CHA) or become autonomous (POW)

 

Third Step determine your profession and apply the start plan !

You have decided to follow one strategy between INT / CON / CHA or POW. I’m happy for you !

 

I propose (in spoiler to increase the readability)

INT :

Spoiler

Choose noble occupation, then you have access to the most powerful heirloom : « network among powerful people ».

 

If you are a woman, start probably with Ernalda (as you can quickly become the center of any fertility ritual so you will have access to champions)

Then find your first husband-protectors. Don’t marry for ever, just one year.

 

If you are a man, the fertility ritual is not for you, but still choose Ernalda. A man in a temple where the leaders and the vast majority of initiates are women has more opportunities. So find your first priestess-protector. Don’t marry for ever… Don’t marry at all !!! Don’t risk to have some Ernalda curse just because a « yes ».

 

Of course, You can decide to start as Uleria initiate. Her powers, probably temporarly more « intense » than Ernalda’s has a limit. You navigate among the nobles. Your reputation is important, gossips are everywhere, so play more with unity and community (to show how important you are for a clan/tribe leader) but set aside the the big price (LU) for the (one or two) clan/tribe leader(s) you will « consume » in the first five years of your carreer.

For all gender, improve your network among the clan leaders, seduce intellectually, and sometimes physically, anyone you can (male, female, follow your own way) plant the seeds of passion and harvest them

The main concern you have is you are not alone, you have to find your way among « professional » politicians who want the same than you so….

The main advantage is that you start in the best social position (aka level of SBC) Unity and Community are very precious to make the difference with the other politicians

Be Smart and don’t burn your promising wings.

 

CON

Spoiler

Choose entertainer occupation, then you are welcomed everywhere. But you are still no one. Don’t forget it. Don’t expect to have any role in a clan. You may seduce a clan leader, but it is just for pleasure… of course after decades you would have some opportunities to get power, but that’s not the way you want. You want to be powerful as soon as possible so become a toy/pet just to have good food is not what you want, right ?

 

Start with Uleria

So, go to any big and rich town. Choose taverns and other enjoying places to be seen and desired, create « relationship » with

-          Local rich guild leader’s son or daughter…

-          Local authority, guard officer, …

-          Local gang leader

Start little and progress, help them to obtain what they want, it could be the big price lucidity, it could be some advantage from other parties….

The rich child wants hazia ? your gang friend can provide it. The child has issue with the guard ? Convinced your friend to forget it, before daddy will learn it and use his own power…

The officer needs some success to have a promotion ?  The gang has probably some useful information about a rival… The officer wants to obtain some good words in the sphere of the governement ? The rich child has certainly some friends and parent friends who can speak.

The gang leader needs a new market ? the rich child can open some doors. The leader has issue with another gang, or maybe wants to remove someone in the crime hierarchy ? the officer may help…

When you have some good results and network, go to the next level. Maybe the child is now the boss, maybe not… Find a guild leader (why not daddy ? ). Maybe the officer get the promotion, maybe not… find the captain/thane/city ring member. Maybe the gang leader now is enough powerful that (s)he leads a bigger part of thecrime organization, maybe not… Find the crime boss

The main concern is that you sails in trouble water and you are nobody. You will be despised, beat, …so you need to be resistant and resilient

The main advantage is that you have access to any kind of objects, even those a honorable noble cannot provide.

 

CHA

Spoiler

Choose any occupation you want, keep in mind to have charm &co skills with a good %

Choose the goddess you prefer, your way is to charm, create desire and passion. The first «  big prizes » you will propose, is above all intellectual because your targets are intellectual.

Find a library, seduce scholars, some of them dedicated on myths, some are wizard apprentice.

Create a club around you. Your « worshippers » will do all the possible to give you what you need to obtain :

1)      A sorcery spell in the same vein than « dominate human », but more subtil, something like « create passionnate fan ». You don’t ensalve your target by power but by desire and passion.

2)      Any myth, map, stuff required to gain from the godtime

a.       CHA bonus (even more than 21)

b.      More beautiful aspect

c.       Ability you don’t have with the spell(lucidy for Ernalda, arouse passion for Uleria… etc…)

d.      Ability you have but more powerful

Then become the « hero » of these scholars, offer them good words, favors and anything they are looking for if they wor(k)ship for you.

The main concern are that your first « circle » is only scholars, unable to help you for other business than library

The second important concern is that you need some of your « lovers » to cast on you « create passionnate fan ». It may be difficult to « maintain » your casters in « love » of you when you ask their magic because they know what will happen to the target… Somthing they want to live with you. Ah jealous sorcerers… all the same.

The main advantage is that you can have any occupation, and it is the faster way to obtain heroic abilities than in the first path (2 goddesses).

 

POW

Spoiler

Choose philosopher occupation.

Like CHA, choose the goddess you prefer. I would choose Ernalda, not to work on the SBC but more as adventurer : charisma may help your magic, bless champion may help one of the other PC (and give you an advantage on the player, as the character loves yours now…)

Like CHA, find a library, form a club around you and start the research in the same way

The main difference is you must be able to cast yourself « create passionnate fan ».For the rest.. young wizards may study to create the spell (save your own time, once they succeed to create the spell, learn from them)

The main concern is the same that CHA : you focus your first circle on scholars.

The main advantage is that you gain faster heroic abilities than in the first path. And you are a sorcerer… not the most powerful (you start around 50%) but that may be solved after few years.

 

Now what happen for a sugar baby adventurer ?

Depending on your level you can use different powers :

(since I've bought the last baldur's gate, i m coming to be corrupted)

 

Level 0 (POW, CHA)

You have access faster and for free on any knowledge required for the adventure

POW : you can support your party by the choice of the few sorcery spells you have (enhance -charac, damage, armor…-, heal or magical attack, it depends on your choice).

CHA : You are not the best warrior / farmer /merchant of the group but you are good enough in your occupation.

CON : NA (start level 1)

INT : NA (start level 2)

 

Level 1 (CON, CHA, POW)

you have relationship with a large range of people, easy to obtain knowledges or special gears

In addition of your occupation, all your magic and network is useful for :

-          Thief scenario : you want to steal something ? enter by the door ! Seduce the owner, give them enough pleasure, once tired by all their effort to follow you (yes you need to train your cardio) they sleep and it is easy to sell what you may find

-     Murder scenario : you want to kill someone ? learn vigor, then enter by the door ! Seduce the owner, give them enough pleasure, once tired by all their effort to follow you (yes you need to train your cardio) wake them and do it again (need enough rp to cast 3 LU), until they die (the best death they may hope, rejoice !) If you are in a hurry, once they sleep, use a dagger. Note that if you apply this strategy too often you have a cumulative risk (+1d6 % after the first murder by season) to become a succubus/incubus

-          Street fight scenario : you have a lot of friends in the street… 3 or 4 thugs in addition means you have now new abilities

o   « 4 medium (60%) attacks per round »

o   « 4 lives per session »

-          Trade scenario : with your network you have facility to hire (or be hired) any companion, obtain help on the road, have access to better prices, etc..

 

Level 2 (all paths)

Now you deal with the clans ring (if you are not following INT strategy, you still have access to your old friends, for the best ... or not)

So you have access to a lot of things that ring member will even not share with others ring members (except, if, like you, they meet them in their bed)

-          You have the support of cult leaders to organize some heroquest, even if it is not really required for the good of the clan

-          You can obtain good thanes for any fighting adventures. Here the new abilities :

o   « 5 good (80%) attacks per round »

o   « 5 lives with good armor per sessions »

-          You have access to a lot of secrets of the clan (or clans depending on how many lovers you can manage…) secrets maybe knowledge useful for magic, investigation, blackmail, ….or even regalia objects, spirits, etc…

 

Level 3

Requirement for level 3 :

-          skills and spells > 100%,

-          5 big prizes spells per season (= RP >15 per goddess and/or heroic ability available)

-          Pass a easy test : seduce this dumb Polaris, after all if this red hair a#@! Ho#([e (as your friend Leika name her) succeed it, it is a easy test, right ?

emperors themselves look for your presence. You can obtain anything in the mundane world

you have access to new abitilities

            invoke 5 rune lords (or any rune level) as body guards, duration their lives. Capacity to replenish your « rune lord pool » by one per season if you lose one of them

 

Level 4

Apotheosis. You are worshipped every where in the world.

In Peloria you are Ulernda the « too smart concubine to be good, but it is so good mmmm »…

Yelmites are so proud and so hypocritical.

In Orlanthi land you are Eurmulernald the « lover impossible to keep for yourself, and at the end you miss something »….

Orlanthi are so dumb…. and of course the subcult in Sartar give you a weak spell we did not discuss before.

In Esrolia you are Ernalduleria the « sacred power behind the throne you should not try to challenge or visit, my daughter »…

Mothers know so much to protect their daugters and grand mothers know that the queen is a little bit jealous and want you for herself.

 

 From a rule perspective

 

Ulernda, subcult of Uleria provides « bless champion » and « arouse passion »

Eurmulernald, subcult of Eurmal provides « arouse passion », « Erotocomatose Lucidity » and .... of course ! « lie »

Ernalduleria subcult of Ernalda provides « Erotocomatose Lucidity » and « Community »

Special rules for Ernalduleria :

- to become a priestess you must be Esrolia’s queen’s lover

- this subcult is the only way to become priestess of Ernalda if you are not a mother (even men can become priestess)

 

The future
 

Spoiler

It is seen by oracles that one day a young woman called Malkiara will visit Peloria, Sartar and Esrolia claiming that the three entities (Ulernda, Eurmulernald and Ernalduleria) are in fact only one aspect of one goddess, then everyone would understand that Ernalda and Uleria are the same goddess.

The issue is that the rqg version 2036 will propose only one cult and some disgruntled people will say that chaosium make a mistake by removing "lie" from the spells provided by the goddess (I m unable to know what name will choose chaosium) so it is impossible to play a character worshipping her. She is too weak

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am a little surprised that you didn't opt to abuse the possibility of a knowledge religion due to the training and earning advantages they provide. 

the issue is there is few rules about it so why wasting time on skills you don't use  (from my definition of munchkin) 🙂

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s just non-trivial to achieve, takes a few years at least. 
But your scheme relies on Lie being so powerful that hundreds of sorcerers will give up POW for enchantments based on one Lie spell, despite the sorcerers being Truth magic masters with access to Logical Clarity, which would defend against Lie.  So whatever, we clearly aren’t engaging with any practical considerations here. 

Actually no. Hundreds of lay worshipers of the Invisible God volunteering POW to one enchanter.

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

RE: SotLM - hmmmm.... for 2 points you get complete immunity... I don't think that's how sorcery is supposed to work! I would expect a MP v MP challenge - and so the Lie could be boosted. (given that our Eurmali is also an IO worshipper and sorcerer, this would be known.)

Yes, but your proposed use isn’t really how Lie is supposed to be used either. It’s an instant spell that might take full effect only for a round - when being asked for something as extreme as giving up POW for an enchantment, it might be reasonable to, say, inform a colleague who might then realise something has gone on and step in. 
FWIW, I figured Lie was more ‘mental confusion’ than ‘mind altering magic’, so countered by Logical Clarity not Solace of the Logical Mind, especially as Madness counts as the former, but it’s obviously a question that could do with some rules clarification.
But yes, immunity to being influenced by Orate, Charm etc for 2 points seems fine, but immunity to Madness for 2 points seems a bit unbalanced, I’d expect a point comparison or roll to overcome in there. But then, Lie has always felt like it should have some sort of roll to affect others too. 

(those two spells definitely change the game balance a bit, and make your LM sorcerers vital - offering defenses against the most powerful Lunar attack spells, ones which otherwise are almost impossible to deal with once struck)

 

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd also counter your argument with the fact that this is being cast inside (or near) a central congregation - why would any sorcerer have that spell up while in their home city? Especially with the (possibly debilitating) lack of augmentations (useful for helping cast their sorcery).

Why would a Lunar sorcerer in a society that includes Dart Competitions and similar skullduggery want to make themselves immune to Madness, one of the major attack spells of their colleagues? Not to mention immunity to Lune accidents too (and Lune ‘accidents’). Or maybe they just hate it when their colleagues talk them into things and always cast it before faculty meetings - or even want to dampen their own Passions, because they are sick of finding themselves doing very foolish things due to their Loyalty (Family) or whatever. 

(aside - making yourself immune to Madness, then fighting from inside a Lune is a pretty handy way for your Lunar sorcerer to give themselves some defenses against barbarian attackers)

I don’t think lack of augmentation from Passions is very debilitating for a sorcerer - most will be able to augment with Runes or skills (dance, sing, etc) much more reliably. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, but your proposed use isn’t really how Lie is supposed to be used either.

I disagree! It's Eurmali - it's supposed to be used for outrageous situations!

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

hen being asked for something as extreme as giving up POW for an enchantment, it might be reasonable to, say, inform a colleague who might then realise something has gone on and step in. 

And that's why you focus on the Chief/High Priest and all the assembled congregation.

Also, I seriously doubt that "inform(ing) a colleague" would do much, given the example of Yelm not rising tomorrow morning (until tomorrow morning, or a Divination (which one would assume is because the priests would be asking "why?") The "one full melee round" seems silly with no context (and I presume that context be something like "you are drowning in water")

Creating a huge enchantment for the upcoming Hero Wars (which I presume people are feeling in the air) would make perfect sense! Besides, if the Red Emperor declared it should be done, it would be something no-one would question (although, they'd probably complain about).

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Why would a Lunar sorcerer in a society that includes Dart Competitions and similar skullduggery want to make themselves immune to Madness, one of the major attack spells of their colleagues? Not to mention immunity to Lune accidents too (and Lune ‘accidents’). Or maybe they just hate it when their colleagues talk them into things and always cast it before faculty meetings - or even want to dampen their own Passions, because they are sick of finding themselves doing very foolish things due to their Loyalty (Family) or whatever. 

Oh, yeah, fair enough!

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I don’t think lack of augmentation from Passions is very debilitating for a sorcerer - most will be able to augment with Runes or skills (dance, sing, etc) much more reliably. 

Ah, true true... I was including Runes in that, instead of just Passions.

[davecake]

37 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, I seriously doubt that "inform(ing) a colleague" would do much, given the example of Yelm not rising tomorrow morning (until tomorrow morning, or a Divination (which one would assume is because the priests would be asking "why?")

Unless they have magic that can cancel the effects of Lie, as we’ve just established they likely do. Or can simply talk them into a slightly different interpretation of what they should do. Lie isn’t a perfect command spell, it’s a one off blast of belief that must then stand on it’s own. 

40 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's Eurmali - it's supposed to be used for outrageous situations!

Exactly! Not initiating large complex self-interested projects reliably! It’s Eurmal magic, it’s for initiating bedlam! Not project management initiation meetings! 

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Besides, if the Red Emperor declared it should be done, it would be something no-one would question (although, they'd probably complain about).

If the Red Emperor ordered it to be done, it would initiate the large machinery of Empire. You would be able to order resources as needed, have details confirmed and supported by many others (rather than just act weird in a way that might have others try to talk you out of it etc), regularly reminded of the reasons to keep doing the thing (like the threat of demotion or arrest) even if you found yourself lacking enthusiasm or harboring doubts. 
 

 

[Shiningbrow]

12 minutes ago, davecake said:

Unless they have magic that can cancel the effects of Lie, as we’ve just established they likely do.

I can only presume you're referring to the sorcerers of IO... cos almost no-one else would!

 

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

Lie isn’t a perfect command spell, it’s a one off blast of belief that must then stand on it’s own. 

True (or Lie :p) But, if it's done correctly, then it has very good standing!

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

Exactly! Not initiating large complex self-interested projects reliably! It’s Eurmal magic, it’s for initiating bedlam! Not project management initiation meetings! 

Yes, but we're not Eurmali, are we?? We have just joined the cult in order to win a munchkin challenge...

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

If the Red Emperor ordered it to be done, it would initiate the large machinery of Empire.

If necessary and appropriate. If necessary, our munchkin could simply say to keep it secret (Lie).

 

I'm finding it a bit amusing that we're taking on a munchkin challenge, and you are now proceeding to rip such munchkinnery apart... Somewhat antithetical.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually no. Hundreds of lay worshipers of the Invisible God volunteering POW to one enchanter.

And, that's only if we go with my first idea, of using the Enhance INT to uber-power (Intensify) other destructive sorcery spells.

Alternatives are to Lie in order to get other enchantments - of which you can get some nice Stackable Rune spells...

Thunderbolt and Lightning,

Very, very frightening

(to me!)

 

(or, how about a 100 point Swallow??)

[metcalph]

15 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, that's only if we go with my first idea, of using the Enhance INT to uber-power (Intensify) other destructive sorcery spells.

That's not really munchkinism but rather Standard Operating Practice of the Malkioni Wizards.  

[davecake]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Alternatives are to Lie in order to get other enchantments - of which you can get some nice Stackable Rune spells...

Yeah, going on the aforementioned ‘Lie is Eurmali illusion mayhem, not for formal project initiation’, that is just never happening in my game.
You may interpret ‘munchkin’ to allow such gratuitous and unlikely things if you want - but besides the general verisimilitude issue, there is also ‘if this was practical, NPCs would have already done it and the PCs would be dead’ principle. 

 

36 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I can only presume you're referring to the sorcerers of IO... cos almost no-one else would!

I literally just said LM would want that spell - and it’s one of the few spells they have easy access to. And IO and LM covers most of the sorcerers we are likely to find in the current adventuring areas in any numbers, and that we understand the rules for. So practically any group of sorcerers you are likely to encounter. 
 

41 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

necessary and appropriate. If necessary, our munchkin could simply say to keep it secret (Lie).

Once again, the idea that Eurmali magic is a good way to create reliable, organised, projects that go to plan… 

[davecake]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's not really munchkinism but rather Standard Operating Practice of the Malkioni Wizards

Yes. I consider it one of the flaws in the current rules, with its obvious corollaries - Fire sorcerers are naturally the most powerful of all sorcerers, due to the natural advantages they have in the Enhance INT bootstrap schemes which are the obviously most advantageous strategy for any moderately sized sorcerous effort. 
 

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes. I consider it one of the flaws in the current rules, with its obvious corollaries - Fire sorcerers are naturally the most powerful of all sorcerers, due to the natural advantages they have in the Enhance INT bootstrap schemes which are the obviously most advantageous strategy for any moderately sized sorcerous effort. 

If the Fire Sorcerers operated by themselves then they would have an advantage in this area.  But the Malkioni Wizards have never been divided among elemental lines.  A Wizard with knowledge of Fire has no problem working with one who knows Darkness.  There is no moral objection to using Enhance INT to cast on another wizard so that he could summon an even bigger Shade.

[radmonger]

Personally i would move 'enhance int' as a variable duration/intensity spell out of play with the Vadeli. Lhankhor Mhy sorcerors would get it as a rune spell will fixed values. Orthodox Malkioni would get it as Zzabur caste magic. Brithini would just be born that smart. Which they would no doubt tell you within 15 seconds of 'hello'.

Also rename 'free int' as 'law rune', while keeping it mostly mechanically the same.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I disagree! It's Eurmali - it's supposed to be used for outrageous situations!

I disagree! It's Eurmali - it's supposed to go horribly wrong and backfire on the trickster!

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

You may interpret ‘munchkin’ to allow such gratuitous and unlikely things if you want - but besides the general verisimilitude issue, there is also ‘if this was practical, NPCs would have already done it and the PCs would be dead’ principle. 

I figure that's how everyone is interpreting 'munchkin'...

What's your definition??

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I literally just said LM would want that spell - and it’s one of the few spells they have easy access to.

"would want", and "have constantly cast on themselves" are two different things...  Given your mention of the Dart Competition, yes I can see IO's having it constantly up. But I doubt that LMs would do the same as a matter of course.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Personally i would move 'enhance int' as a variable duration/intensity spell out of play with the Vadeli. Lhankhor Mhy sorcerors would get it as a rune spell will fixed values. Orthodox Malkioni would get it as Zzabur caste magic. Brithini would just be born that smart. Which they would no doubt tell you within 15 seconds of 'hello'.

Also rename 'free int' as 'law rune', while keeping it mostly mechanically the same.

May I suggest this to be a separate thread?? Especially as it's Homebrew/MGV.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Exactly! Not initiating large complex self-interested projects reliably! It’s Eurmal magic, it’s for initiating bedlam! Not project management initiation meetings! 

remember we are  illuminated. And maybe in a community of disorder, you may even meet one able to plan and follow it, even without illumination

 

(I agree with you on my table however, but here we have a munchkin excercise)

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

remember we are  illuminated. And maybe in a community of disorder, you may even meet one able to plan and follow it, even without illumination

Hmmm, I don't remember seeing "immune to trickster tricks always backfiring" on the list of illuminate powers. That would be awesome though.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

...
You may interpret ‘munchkin’ to allow such gratuitous and unlikely things if you want

… 

This is kind of implicit to munchkinry.

8 hours ago, davecake said:

... just never happening in my game … 

Again, this looks like a hallmark of something munchkin.
GM's generally don't like such plans playing out in their games!

 

But the RQ/Glorantha fandom, AFAICT, widely regard Lie as one of the most (likely the very most) OP spells in the game.

 

8 hours ago, davecake said:

... there is also ‘if this was practical, NPCs would have already done it and the PCs would be dead’ principle. 

...

Once again, the idea that Eurmali magic is a good way to create reliable, organised, projects that go to plan.

Oh, that's another matter entirely!!!
Is it reliable, practical?  Hell no!

Could it kinda-sorta work, maybe, if you squint real hard, tilt your head just-so, and plug your ears chanting "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you!" when GM's named davecake raise objections?  9 out of 10 Eurmali say it will absolutely work!

(and even if it doesn't quite work... it should be loads of fun)

[PhilHibbs]

I think we're getting our roleplayer types muddled up here.

The Real Man
    The tough macho type who walks up to the attacking dragon and orders it to leave before he gets hurt.

The Real Roleplayer
    The intelligent cunning guy who tricks the constable into letting you all out of prison.

The Loonie
    The guy who will do anything for a cheap laugh, including casting a fireball at ground zero.

The Munchkin
    Need we say more?

I don't think that tricksters fit well into the Munchkin category, they're clearly more at home in the Loonies. Eurmal tricks are too unreliable for the munchkin to rely on... they will try them, get burned, and then be wary of them. The loonie will try them, laugh about how hilariously it went wrong, then try another one.

[g33k]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, but your proposed use isn’t really how Lie is supposed to be used either. It’s an instant spell that might take full effect only for a round ...

Instant spells are, generally, very powerful:  they are permanent spells.  You wouldn't describe an "Instant" healing spell as having "full effect only for a round," nor Guided Teleport, etc etc etc.

The true impact (and dangers) of Lie is specifically in its sustained effect.  It is the social consequences of lies believed,  lies repeated by others... lies acted-upon.

A Lie spoken at a Clan Moot can turn the entire Clan to the Eurmali's purpose.  Now... that isn't likely to be sustained.  I would not expect (for example) the Clan to actually go to war because of a single Lie... but, call a war-council?  Send messengers to summon Thanes from distant Steads?  Call the fyrd to arms?  Oh my, yes!  Absolutely!

But that many people -- each moving to act in their own fashion, talking to their own connections (who hadn't heard the original Lie) -- are liable to stumble across reasons to disbelieve, and once someone begins tugging the threads, the Lie begins to unravel for that person.  Soon, those people will begin voicing their concerns to others who were Lied-to (who hadn't yet begun to disbelieve) and shortly thereafter the whole thing falls apart.

The clever Eurmali will be far away when that happens... but most Eurmali will still be at Ground Zero when the Lie implodes on them.

 

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, g33k said:

Instant spells are, generally, very powerful:  they are permanent spells.  You wouldn't describe an "Instant" healing spell as having "full effect only for a round," nor Guided Teleport, etc etc etc.

The true impact (and dangers) of Lie is specifically in its sustained effect.  It is the social consequences of lies believed,  lies repeated by others... lies acted-upon.

A Lie spoken at a Clan Moot can turn the entire Clan to the Eurmali's purpose.  Now... that isn't likely to be sustained.  I would not expect (for example) the Clan to actually go to war because of a single Lie... but, call a war-council?  Send messengers to summon Thanes from distant Steads?  Call the fyrd to arms?  Oh my, yes!  Absolutely!

But that many people -- each moving to act in their own fashion, talking to their own connections (who hadn't heard the original Lie) -- are liable to stumble across reasons to disbelieve, and once someone begins tugging the threads, the Lie begins to unravel for that person.  Soon, those people will begin voicing their concerns to others who were Lied-to (who hadn't yet begun to disbelieve) and shortly thereafter the whole thing falls apart.

The clever Eurmali will be far away when that happens... but most Eurmali will still be at Ground Zero when the Lie implodes on them.

 

Just thinking along those lines for the scenario I proposed - getting an uber-powerful 100POW enchantment...

If I GMed it, it would work.

However, such focus of energy at one point in time would be like a massive beacon throughout the lands that all heroquesters couldn't fail to notice it, and in the midsts of this enchantment process, a whole stack of enemies come charging in to stop it... and mayhem ensues (Thus, the Trickster magic continues on its Disorderly way).

In addition to this, I'd also have it that it makes every other group ramp up their efforts for the upcoming wars! The players thought they had another 10 years to get their shit together? Not any more!!! Two if you're lucky!

(that's on top of having Jar-Eel come along and smack your nose ...).

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, such focus of energy at one point in time would be like a massive beacon throughout the lands that all heroquesters couldn't fail to notice it...

But... but.. but... it doesn't say that in the rules! You're cheating!

I've literally had players say that to me. Not for a while, and not with my current group, but it is out there as an attitude.

Edited October 24, 2023 by PhilHibbs