The Effects of Shamanic Self-Resurrection

[Darius West]

I am presently looking over the rules related to Shamanic Self-Resurrection, and I think I'd like a little clarification about them if people have the time.  Obviously some of these questions are very much up to the GM, but I'd like to hear what other GMs think, and what our resident Rules Lawyers think.

(1) If a shaman self-resurrects within an hour (a listed cost of 4 POW) does that imply that they have spent 4 POW to get themselves back to 1hp or is the cost actually 4 POW for each point of Spirit Magic Healing they perform from their deceased condition? 

(2) It seems that the longer you wait, the easier self- resurrection becomes.  At what point does it become free?  A year?  A century?  Can you actually GAIN POW if you remain dead long enough (I'm thinking about Jaldon Toothmaker and his long  death-sleep absences, and the Pendragon "sleep" rules for magic).

(3) It seems apparent that Shamans can completely refuse to enter the cycle of death and rebirth, choosing instead to hide out in or near their bodies.  Can they spend POW to cast disruption on scavengers who want to eat their remains? 

(4) What condition do Shaman bodies have to be in to be capable of self-resurrection anyhow?  Is cremation final for an Oakfed Shaman, or can they be fanned back from the embers of their pyre?

(5) If a shaman dies, what happens to their fetch if it is embodied in an animal?  Does the animal die?

(6) Do crystals and items attuned to a shaman become immediately de-attuned at the moment of death, or is the connection a little more resilient than that?

(7) As a related topic, if a Rune Lord or Rune Priest dies, and they have an allied spirit in an animal, does the animal die immediately?  I ask because some Shamans are also associated with cults that offer Allied Spirits.

(8) Is a shaman who dies able to summon back the spirits they previously had bound in crystals and matrices, a la the RQ3 "shamans learn the names of spirits once they defeat them, and can use those names to re-summon them" rules?  

 

[EricW]

I always figured the damage which led to death is the damage which has to be repaired by POW, but your thought is a good one - the actual mechanics of the resurrection might differ, so for example the resurrection of an Oakfed associated shaman might involve ritual rebirth from the ashes, as homage to Oakfed, and just because they can.

Given the Shaman is still in close contact with their body, and has a strong intent to re-enter it, I have always assumed any allied spirits and fetch would hang about waiting for their master to return. I mean, death and disincorporation are pretty similar when you think about it, other than fatal damage to the body in the case of death. If a shaman stays too long away from their body the death maybe becomes official.

State of the body - who knows. Resurrecting a finger or a pile of ashes (outside maybe the Oakfed ritual), might be a big ask. Though Shamen with different affiliations might have particular skill at handling various problems, so an Oakfed shaman might be good at dealing with fire damage, and Earth spirit shaman might be good at handling crush damage, etc.

Of course, parties hostile to the shaman might know special tricks or rituals for making resurrection particularly difficult, if they don't want the shaman to return. Of course, messing with the body would be pretty risky, a shaman powerful enough to cause that kind of hatred would probably take a few precautions. 

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am presently looking over the rules related to Shamanic Self-Resurrection

(1) If a shaman self-resurrects within an hour (a listed cost of 4 POW) does that imply that they have spent 4 POW to get themselves back to 1hp or is the cost actually 4 POW for each point of Spirit Magic Healing they perform from their deceased condition?

Note that there is a typo in the table heading, Points should be Level (now in Q&A).

This is likely why you are confusing the points of healing needed to bring the shaman to one hit point point and the already purchased level of the ability. The level is the already acquired ability per Adding Shamanic Abilities, page 359. If a shaman has four levels in Self-Resurrection, they can bring themself back in one hour.

So if a shaman dies and is at -8 Total Hit points, it would usually cost 9 magic points if they used Heal Wound, however this ability uses POW for healing so would cost 9 POW to reach 1 Hit point (and the Rune point for Heal Wound in this example)

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(2) It seems that the longer you wait, the easier self- resurrection becomes.

The wait is based on your already developed ability, that you have already acquired to a particular level.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

At what point does it become free?  A year?  A century?

It never becomes free as you need to spend POW to heal yourself.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Can you actually GAIN POW if you remain dead long enough

No, you need a minimum of 1 level in this ability to use it.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(I'm thinking about Jaldon Toothmaker and his long  death-sleep absences, and the Pendragon "sleep" rules for magic).

Simply, Jaldon is a summoned embodied spirit. This not related to magical sleeping.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(3) It seems apparent that Shamans can completely refuse to enter the cycle of death and rebirth, choosing instead to hide out in or near their bodies.

No. If they don't have enough POW to heal themselves, they remain dead.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Can they spend POW to cast disruption on scavengers who want to eat their remains?

If they remain as ghosts, they use the normal spirit combat rules for attacking (one round to become visible, etc) and use their magic points.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(4) What condition do Shaman bodies have to be in to be capable of self-resurrection anyhow?

Enough that they have enough POW to heal themself.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Is cremation final for an Oakfed Shaman, or can they be fanned back from the embers of their pyre?

Yes it's final: Cremate Dead: This spell allows an official (usually a priest) to fully destroy the bodily remains of any one person after death.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(5) If a shaman dies, what happens to their fetch if it is embodied in an animal?  Does the animal die?

Fetches aren't embodied (allied spirits are). The fetch remains with the shaman in the spirit world (it is part of them)

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(6) Do crystals and items attuned to a shaman become immediately de-attuned at the moment of death, or is the connection a little more resilient than that?

In this case they aren't really dead as they are about to self resurrect, so nothing happens.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(7) As a related topic, if a Rune Lord or Rune Priest dies, and they have an allied spirit in an animal, does the animal die immediately?  I ask because some Shamans are also associated with cults that offer Allied Spirits.

The spirit departs back to their god and the animal's original spirit reasserts itself. In this case as they aren't really dead, it remains.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

(8) Is a shaman who dies able to summon back the spirits they previously had bound in crystals and matrices, a la the RQ3 "shamans learn the names of spirits once they defeat them, and can use those names to re-summon them" rules?  

Yes, but they will need to learn a specific (named) version of summon (entity), eg Summon (Bob the Ghost). Alternatively they can use Summon cult spirit if appropriate or Summon specific ancestor, or any specialist specific spirit cult summoning. eg Summon Son of Votank per Lightbringers, page 85.

added to q&a

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

... (4) What condition do Shaman bodies have to be in to be capable of self-resurrection anyhow?  Is cremation final for an Oakfed Shaman, or can they be fanned back from the embers of their pyre? ...

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

...Yes it's final: Cremate Dead: This spell allows an official (usually a priest) to fully destroy the bodily remains of any one person after death. ...

Honestly, I really love Darius' question & the implied exceptional case.

I think My Glorantha Will Vary, here; specifically if the Oakfed Shaman is burned on a funeral pyre lit from a fire preserved as per the Oakfed taboo to "never let a fire die out."

Such a funeral-pyre, I think, should allow an Oakfed Shaman to self-resurrect.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Honestly, I really love Darius' question & the implied exceptional case.

I think My Glorantha Will Vary, here; specifically if the Oakfed Shaman is burned on a funeral pyre lit from a fire preserved as per the Oakfed taboo to "never let a fire die out."

Such a funeral-pyre, I think, should allow an Oakfed Shaman to self-resurrect.

Provided the shaman finds a way to fully restore his body from the flame.

 

What happens to a shaman with the ability to self-resurrect but lacking the means to restore the body? Are they trapped in the Spirit World near their lifeless body, unable to die and face Daka Fal?

[Shiningbrow]

What if someone else comes along and heals the body?

If a shaman had access to such a spell (and I can definitely see it being possible with Earth-powered shamans down in Esrolia, and RAW Yelmic shamans would have it almost automatically!), couldn't they just cast a Heal Body instead?

[Jens]

24 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

What if someone else comes along and heals the body?

Lucky Shaman, their spirit can rejoin their healed body without needing to spend POW. You might rule it takes at least 1 permanent POW. 

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

couldn't they just cast a Heal Body instead?

Sure- although I'd rule the rune points used in either Heal Body are Heal Wound are permanently lost.

[Scotty]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What if someone else comes along and heals the body?

This is certainly possible (must be done with resurrect too), and would likely be done by their assistant who would then guard the body hoping for their return (remember depending on their level it can range between an season and 1 SR).

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

What happens to a shaman with the ability to self-resurrect but lacking the means to restore the body?

They die and their spirit follows what ever path is normal when they die. Usually ending up in the afterlife of their Greater Entity

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are they trapped in the Spirit World near their lifeless body, unable to die and face Daka Fal?

They could chose to remain as a ghost, tied to where they died, or go on to the usual path. Whichever fits the story better or the player's choice. Looking Leona the shaman in the last issue of Heroes (Volume I Number 4), there are great examples of bound and haunting shaman relatives.

4 hours ago, Jens said:

Lucky Shaman, their spirit can rejoin their healed body without needing to spend POW. You might rule it takes at least 1 permanent POW.

They may still need to wait depending on their level in the ability (between an season and 1 SR)

4 hours ago, Jens said:

Sure- although I'd rule the rune points used in either Heal Body are Heal Wound are permanently lost.

No, only if the Rune spell is one use the caster. Healing a body before resurrect does not cost permanent Rune points either.

16 hours ago, g33k said:

Such a funeral-pyre, I think, should allow an Oakfed Shaman to self-resurrect.

Personally I'd allow an adventurer to return as an Oakfed (a huge Urzani).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Scotty
correction

[Shiningbrow]

On 10/30/2023 at 2:25 PM, Jens said:

Lucky Shaman, their spirit can rejoin their healed body without needing to spend POW. You might rule it takes at least 1 permanent POW. 

Why would you make it cost even more??? Granted, the first level of the ability might be free (and maybe even the second or third if they're lucky) - but after that it's going to cost the Shaman stat points anyway... and getting to 8 is going to be very expensive in that regard.

On 10/30/2023 at 2:25 PM, Jens said:

Sure- although I'd rule the rune points used in either Heal Body are Heal Wound are permanently lost.

Again, why would you do that (other than simply as a mean punishment). I can't see any logical (either rules or world-building) reason for it. It'd be like saying that a ghost couldn't cast those spell on a body in the middle of combat. (or, really, any other spirit).

[hasevir]

Self resurrection used to be less dramatic. You kinda floated above your body being in control of the process unlike regular mortals that just get vacuumed to their afterlives. Shamans meanwhile swim those currents with ease and essentially ignore such.

Anyways, there you float and behold your mortal coil... and start casting those heal spirit spells with or without various bound spirits assisting. Then swim into your own fully or repaired enough body. You can almost as easily go grab someone elses body too, like the killers body. Then keep that soul trapped and interrogated? Yes shamans are über deadly scouts into say a castle killing opponents and lose the latest body? Just grab another.

[Darius West]

I'd like to draw people's attention to question 5 for purposes of something I am writing.

On 10/29/2023 at 5:50 PM, Darius West said:

(5) If a shaman dies, what happens to their fetch if it is embodied in an animal?  Does the animal die?

If a shaman dies, but self-resurrects, what happens to their fetch, if it is in an animal?  I'd love to hear some opinions.  Thanks Scotty for your detailed response btw.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

If a shaman dies, but self-resurrects, what happens to their fetch, if it is in an animal?  I'd love to hear some opinions.  Thanks Scotty for your detailed response btw.

Fetches aren't in animals - but are only visualised as animals...

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

If a shaman dies, but self-resurrects, what happens to their fetch, if it is in an animal? 

The fetch may spiritually be seen as an animal, but it is not an animal. The fetch is part of the shaman and only exists as the shaman's constant presence ('eyes' if you will) on the Spirit Plane. If the shaman dies, but self-resurrects, they resurrect their fetch too as it is part of the shaman's soul. 

(Effectively, the form/shape of the fetch reflects what the shaman's soul looks like in the Otherworld.)

Edited December 15, 2023 by jajagappa

[Darius West]

Okay thanks for the clarification.  I misread the section and thought Fetches became embodied in animals like allied spirits.  My bad.

New Question:

So what about the situation with cults like Waha where you can be a Waha Khan and gain an allied spirit, and a Waha Shaman and gain a fetch?  The Allied Spirit can be in the animal, but the fetch cannot be.  How do the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other?  Can anyone discuss what they can and cannot do for each other?  It wasn't covered in the rules afaik.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Darius West

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

... what about the situation with cults like Waha where you can be a Waha Khan and gain an allied spirit, and a Waha Shaman and gain a fetch?  The Allied Spirit can be in the animal, but the fetch cannot be.  How do the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other?  Can anyone discuss what they can and cannot do for each other?  It wasn't covered in the rules afaik.

As the fetch is part of the shaman, I would presume it can interact with the shaman's allied spirit in the same way the shaman does.

Edited December 16, 2023 by g33k

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

As the fetch is part of the shaman,

This is the critical piece - never think of the fetch as an "independent" entity! Easier to think of your fetch as a new "appendage" to your body, just a part that extends into the Spirit World and takes on a certain shape both there and occasionally in the mundane world (in a translucent form).

The Waha shaman-priest negotiates and interacts with the allied spirit normally.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay thanks for the clarification.  I misread the section and thought Fetches became embodied in animals like allied spirits.  My bad.

New Question:

So what about the situation with cults like Waha where you can be a Waha Khan and gain an allied spirit, and a Waha Shaman and gain a fetch?  The Allied Spirit can be in the animal, but the fetch cannot be.  How do the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other?  Can anyone discuss what they can and cannot do for each other?  It wasn't covered in the rules afaik.

imo as other said, it is the same person

what I would say in addition:

 

if the shaman is in the mundane world (the 'not fetch' part), the allied spirit in the mundane world (animal) will see the mundane  shaman body

if the shaman is visiting the spirit world (the 'no fetch' part), that means the fetch can be seen in the mundane world, so our allied spirit in animal, will see the fetch.

Of course if our allied spirit is for any reason disembodied (is it possible ? can a ghost be an allied spirit) I would say it see the opposite (the part being in the spirit world in all case)

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

if the shaman is in the mundane world (the 'not fetch' part), the allied spirit in the mundane world (animal) will see the mundane  shaman body

if the shaman is visiting the spirit world (the 'no fetch' part), that means the fetch can be seen in the mundane world, so our allied spirit in animal, will see the fetch.

Of course if our allied spirit is for any reason disembodied (is it possible ? can a ghost be an allied spirit) I would say it see the opposite (the part being in the spirit world in all case)

Can the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other.  Given their spiritual proximity to the same Waha Shaman Khan, do they have to interact via the S/K or can they do so independently?  The issue of POW and Spell sharing comes to mind.

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Can the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other.  Given their spiritual proximity to the same Waha Shaman Khan, do they have to interact via the S/K or can they do so independently?  The issue of POW and Spell sharing comes to mind.

For me fetch is shaman

in my understanding, the answer is the same that « can the allied spirit interact with left hand or only right hand » 

but I agree nowhere it is written that allied spirit can communicate with the full soul * or only with the usual soul (those who are not shaman) or only with one of the five/six/seven part of the soul.

so I keep it simply. Fetch is not an indépendant spirit. (Well except when pyscho/chaotic participates of course, that could be played) fetch is the shaman. If the shaman is khan then fetch is the khan. Allied spirit talk to the khan so talk to both the fetch and the non fetch part of the khan

 

* I have never followed any theological lesson so if soul is not the right word, put a better one. My only conclusion is shaman and fetch are one , fully one

Edited December 17, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Can the Allied Spirit and the Fetch interact with each other.  Given their spiritual proximity to the same Waha Shaman Khan, do they have to interact via the S/K or can they do so independently?  The issue of POW and Spell sharing comes to mind.

A Waha shaman's allied spirit is embodied in their riding animal and is in continual mind-to-mind communication with the priest. They can use each other’s magical abilities, including spell knowledge, magic points, and Rune points.

While the Fetch provides POW and magic points to the shaman. The fetch shares the shaman’s INT, knowing what the shaman knows, and can act and react just as can the shaman.

So the allied spirit and fetch can't talk to each other (one is corporate and the discorporate, so spirit speech doesn't work). They can't use each others abilities.