Ghost Places of Prax

[Erol of Backford]

Rule 1 Issue 12 - Ghost Places of Prax by Andrew Larsen

I love the idea that any of the ruins have occasionally appeared to travelers in Prax as intact cities occupied by its one time inhabitants. I suppose this is some sort of time paradox that may of my not be real. is it a dream. Imagine PC's walking into Gimpy's saying they were having a banquet with the Monkey King, only Malo Yellow would believe them...

I mean why go to Monkey ruins and have a dream, why not actually be there in all its glory? That is one way to easily go and get the Might of the Monkey King spell? Go fight some Broo for the Monkey King near Sog's Ruins or do some quest. You come back and now its in ruin? 

The same could happen with Pavis depending and you are in old Pavis for a few days in an obscure part and its the city of magnificence it once was?

Of course this brings me back to the Sun Wheel Ruin. Maybe its how it once was, if only for a night but somehow, maybe just maybe one of the PC's is a long lost descendant of Golden Fintalen and that somehow creates a time vortex... if just for day and a night?

Yes more than 10 Sun Wheel Dancers would have occupied an incredible structure as this but Glorantha is a magical place?

[David Scott]

It's what the Hidden Greens are, they are parts of Prax and the Wastes that were never captured back when the world disintegrated and have a longing to return. The monkey ruins are different because they were destroyed, but the Baboons can heroquest there to recover its former self. Don't forget that the Monkey King still exists as a spirit cult (see the Prosopaedia).

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Maybe its how it once was, if only for a night but somehow, maybe just maybe … a time vortex … if just for day and a night?

Personally, I like it, and if you like it, you should do it. You might — only might, it is not compulsory — want to set yourself some ground rules if you want to stay fairly close to canonical Glorantha, as if I have it right (always a big if):

• heroquesting is not itself time travel
• you cannot time travel to the Godtime/Godswar (but you can heroquest to it)
• Belintar didn’t fall backwards through time (contra Sandy P)

If Glorantha in 2023 doesn’t seem especially friendly to time travel and heroquesting doesn’t use it, there is a risk of things becoming a little kitchen sinky (an arbitrary pile-up of features), but:

• I am sure you have your own idea of heroquesting which you know how to mesh with time travel (if integration is required)
• You can always use the old dodge of “you can visit the past, but it is never the past of your timeline” (e.g. as in The Female Man)

The alternate past dodge makes continuity easier, and it also allows you to avoid the question of whether time really began only 1600-odd years ago.

You also have the option of the players entering a fully-functional city where there ought to be only a ruin and offering no explanation of how it came to be there (and later went away again). A ghost story doesn’t have to come with a lecture and explanatory diagrams.

One way or another, it will fly. Have fun! 😉

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

want to set yourself some ground rules

I like that if the PC's act in a positive manner that would enhance the lives of those in the Ghost Place the PS remain active in the past.

It's like the PC's were supposed to be there, invited magically from the future to conduct some sort of business, kill chaos, slay a beast, get a kitten from a tree, whatever.

If they act against the desires of the past, are not cooperative or helpful they get kicked out of the past? Maybe only the PC's who act in a negative way are kicked out, sort of like being let go from a Hero Quest or getting killed in a Hero Quest. The type of HQ you don't actually die in? (never gamed in a HQ nor have I been a GM for 

It could be that if the PC's are helpful they are invited back to conduct the next action, potentially part of a long line of actions or tasks that need to be put in order.

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

“you can visit the past, but it is never the past of your timeline”

This seems to fit perfectly.

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

You also have the option of the players entering a fully-functional city where there ought to be only a ruin and offering no explanation of how it came to be there (and later went away again).

Say with Monkey Ruins, who's to say that there are not things to be put in order that need to be completed in the past for the "Return of the Monkey King" which is of course to be Melo Yelo. A secret compartment with holy relics or who knows what is created and set to be discovered in the future, a Monkey Ruins time capsule in a corner stone which will trigger a rebirth, the sprouting of a new serpent which turns the ruins into a Hanging Garden of Babylon.

Maybe there is a river spirit at the Monkey Ruins that needs to be resurrected similar to Seolinthur...

Now all I need to do is figure what the tasks of the past Monkey Ruins (as an example) would be for them to trigger a rebirth or renaissance of the ruins? If it were related to resurrecting not Genert but the Monkey King or an associated extinct river?

Soltakss posted before: The Growing Ground was a Hidden green deep below the Wastes, where Genert's body was being reformed. It had the Stitchers (Earth-Nymph Daughters of Genert, or their descendants, who stitched the various pieces together), the Vomitors (Hyena folk you vomited the bits of Genert and then returned to the surface, so that you didn't need to kill all Hyenas to bring back Genert), and the Trackers (Worshippers of Caarith who searched the Wastes for Hyenas and for pieces of Genert).

I know it's not the same (doesn't seem to be connected at all) but it could be paralleled to help create a storyline for Monkey Ruins?

Again by Soltakss: The Adventurers summoned all Hyenas (for me now it baboons) to the Growing Ground (Monkey Ruins) and got them all to vomit up bits of Genert (dance for nuts that fall from the sky) then the Stitchers stitched the bits together. 

We work something in like the ritual that the baboons did in the Cult Compendium p.61 from the Travels of Biturian Varosh (Monkey's on acid dancing in the moonlight with edible nuts falling from the sky... some party). 

Three days out of Pimper’s Block, the head of my baboon escort came to me and asked if he and his followers might retire to a ruin nearby to celebrate an ancient ritual of theirs.

If all the 10,000 baboons (GtG p. 440) were to gather at Monkey ruins (like Burning Man in Prax) and make nuts fall from the sky and than their ancestors all joined them something big could happen...

What might the PC's do to placate Oakfed and or permit his temple to remain and be integrated into the rejuvenated Monkey Ruins, who knows... baboons with fire, could be interesting.

This could be an entire campaign and could be done for almost any ruin... Ghost Pace in Glorantha.

Maybe, just maybe Sun Wheel Ruin is a Ghost Place?

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If all the 10,000 baboons were to gather at Monkey ruins (like Burning Man in Prax) and make nuts fall from the sky and then their ancestors all joined them something big could happen …

If you are going for the alternate timeline thing, the number of (potentially) available baboons can be multiplied by the number of timelines contacted, perhaps. That is the way to boost a ritual.

Of course, Monkey Kingdom Redux is likely to be established in an alternate timeline. Do the PCs who have helped out stay in Baboon Shangri-La — as righteous “shaved ones”? — or do they return to their own version of Glorantha as it careers toward apocalypse? Responsibilities at home vs. well-earned rest in a monkey utopia. If you think about it too much, you may be in danger of illumination.

Or perhaps the Trans-Temporal Baboon Imperium is spreading across the timelines, establishing permanent bases in multiple ages of many Gloranthas. Who knows? Not I.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would not play time travel in my glorantha . However that doesn't mean characters (and maybe players) may think they travelled to the past.

in my "backoffice", the possibilities to "visit the past" are  :
 

- when you enter any mundane place showing a past event, you think you go to this past event and act during this past event, but in fact you may :

a) visit an echo of this past, so what you do has no impact in your timeline. But you may gain knowledge, or magical heirloom, or you may see where the piece you are looking for in mundane world was hidden... maybe you -in the echo bubble- hide yourself the piece. Then the yourself wasnt you and if you remember well you did not see your own human hands but some baboon hands ... once you are out of the past, you have to find the hidden piece but now, you know where it is (or you know where it was... continue your investigations if other have found it before you)

Do you have any impact on the "now" (aka do you create a new timeline in addition of yours by acting in this echo ) ? maybe, maybe not, but if there is no play/story on a kind of metaverse  that's not important to me. you are still in your universe, your timeline. So what happens elsewhen (?) has no sense if you cannot access to this other time.

 

b) visit the today (if it means something) spirit plan in a way you feel you are in the past but in fact the spirits/ghosts play with you (maybe for your good, maybe not) Maybe they are conscious what they are doing, maybe themselves believe they are not ghosts but living people. probably few understand/remember there is something weird when most of ghosts will be happy to be alive -their death was just a dream... -. In this experience, you are yourself and deads or entities who know you will recognize you without effort.

In that case, when you are back to the mundane world, you have what you get in the spirit world... or more probably you get only what is the focus of this experience (and why not 1 or 2 points of spirit spell) . Do what you have to do with the item (probably some powerful spirits told you what to do), make some peaceful ritual to thanks the spirits (or curse them, that's your point) and the experience is closed

 

but at the end, it is the same effect: you visit the ghost place, you obtain something, and it may help to trigger an event (or help to do a ritual of "restoration" of a past power)

----------------------------

- when you think you are heroquesting the godtime, you don't visit the godtime but some actual "echo" of the godtime event, echo following the pattern of heroquest / station of heroquest (as you can do "exploration heroquest" it means you can jump from an echo of HQ "A" station 8 to to an echo of HQ "B" station 2 to an HQ "unknown" station "void" )

- when you think you are heroquesting the godtime, you may meet (echo of) gods or previous (echo of) heroquestors with the masks of gods or actual heroquestors with the masks of gods. But you probably don't know/recognize who is behind the mask and it is possible that people behind the mask may change if your choices are too far from

-  of course when you enter the godtime with the same  gateway (same ritual for your group, or some specific trackers that godlearners may have create) you are with (or are following)  the same heroquestors and you recognize them behind their mask (probably)

 

 

 

this notion of echo/pattern helps me to understand the world and avoid too many paradox. It is possible to have an unclear access to echo of the future but it is unclear

- You may, like Arkat meet yourself but younger (... but do the younger meet his own older Arkat ? ) and in all cases, it is in the fog of echoes striking themselves

- Divination will never tell you that you will win tomorow, it will tell you if you make the good choices you will win. but wait what are the good choices ? arf damned the ritual is over.

there are not true cycles as first age was different of second age, different from third age, etc... but they follow the same pattern. in the same way that years follow the same pattern but are different. Argrath may be an echo of Arkat, it may even have several echo of Arkat in the third age, but they are different. They only follow the same pattern (of the entire life or of a part of Arkat's life). The cycle is in fact the circle you see when you look at a helicoidal form from a specific angle.

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If you are going for the alternate timeline thing

Wasn't but might be interesting.

10 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Monkey Kingdom Redux is likely to be established in an alternate timeline

This would be in the current actual Glorantha. A rebirth if you will, would take time but the resurrection of a serpent in the ruins would bring prosperity...

10 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Or perhaps the Trans-Temporal Baboon Imperium is spreading across the timelines, establishing permanent bases in multiple ages of many Gloranthas. Who knows? Not I.

On the rumors' table this rates to horrible to even think about it...

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

visit an echo of this past

This is good but there is an impact, the Monkey Ruins does or will undergo a rebirth.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you visit the ghost place, you obtain something, and it may help to trigger an event (or help to do a ritual of "restoration" of a past power)

This hits the target!

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This is good but there is an impact, the Monkey Ruins does or will undergo a rebirth.

yes there is an impact but, in my case, not because you changed the past, but because the past (or its echo) shows you what you have to do to obtain the rebirth "now"

it is

not [you plant a seed twenty centuries ago  and, when you come back now, there is a tree]

but

[you learn from the past how to plant this extinct tree and you know where to find a hidden seed, back to the "reality", your now, you "just" have to find the seed and plant it if you want the tree]

 

and sometimes, even if you don't want or you are not conscious of it, because your mental/magical travel, you will do something as a trigger (because the past echo plant a seed in your destiny). You are cursed becaused you meet something, you are tool of the fate. You are a true hero, not the one who succeeds his rolls, the one who brings unvoluntary the future's change

 

 

 

[Darius West]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:09 AM, mfbrandi said:

Personally, I like it, and if you like it, you should do it. You might — only might, it is not compulsory — want to set yourself some ground rules if you want to stay fairly close to canonical Glorantha, as if I have it right (always a big if):

• heroquesting is not itself time travel
• you cannot time travel to the Godtime/Godswar (but you can heroquest to it)
• Belintar didn’t fall backwards through time (contra Sandy P)

If Glorantha in 2023 doesn’t seem especially friendly to time travel and heroquesting doesn’t use it, there is a risk of things becoming a little kitchen sinky (an arbitrary pile-up of features), but:

• I am sure you have your own idea of heroquesting which you know how to mesh with time travel (if integration is required)
• You can always use the old dodge of “you can visit the past, but it is never the past of your timeline” (e.g. as in The Female Man)

The alternate past dodge makes continuity easier, and it also allows you to avoid the question of whether time really began only 1600-odd years ago.

You also have the option of the players entering a fully-functional city where there ought to be only a ruin and offering no explanation of how it came to be there (and later went away again). A ghost story doesn’t have to come with a lecture and explanatory diagrams.

One way or another, it will fly. Have fun! 😉

Of course there was the time where Sandy P and Greg were flirting with the idea of time travel.  I'm glad they didn't opt to include it.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Of course there was the time where Sandy P and Greg were flirting with the idea of time travel. I'm glad they didn't opt to include it.

I don’t mind either way. I think that Sandy still had Belintar as a time-traveller in 2014 or 2015 — IIRC, it is in one of the Kraken chapbooks — but by then, it didn’t matter what he thought.

Even if in the end, time travel doesn’t make perfect sense, people have an idea of how to put a time-travel story together, so if some people want to deal with heroquesting and participating in the Godswar as a game of Snakes and Spiders (Leiber’s Change War) rather than learning a new set of concepts, I think that is fine.° I don’t want to tell other people how hard to work to have fun. Chaosium publishes the stuff, and each punter can do with it what they like. No degree in esoteric studies from the University of Gatekeeping is required, right?

————————————————————————
° Possibly because I am quite slow on the uptake myself. I can cope with: [a] the Godswar explains the present world because it happened before it, so to participate you have to go back; [b] the Godswar is not part of history (it never happened: it is nowhere on the timeline), but by overdoing the psychedelics or askesis you can imaginatively visit the myths/stories of it (just as IRL, we can), and (unlike IRL) this can have concrete effects in the mundane world — hallucination-powered magic! But I never really understood the Guide’s notion of subjective reality. One day, maybe.

[EricW]

I think it’s OK to visit places before time or where the compromise has broken, but frightfully dangerous.

Before time is easy. If you change something radically, you may never find your way back - this should be a lesson that all the events which led to time, good and bad, were vital to the salvation of Glorantha.

If you visit a breach in the compromise, good luck surviving that. Whatever hideous threat broke the compromise, is now your problem. How many trolls have thrown their lives away pitting themselves against Gbaji at the battle of night and day? Imagine witnessing the battle of Castle Blue, seeing the goddess manifest as a Lune of infinite power?

Obviously there must be a way for players to return, unless you enjoy creating new characters, but pitted against forces of that magnitude there is not much they can do to change an outcome - and even if they somehow do, time will protect the integrity of all which came before their attempt.

Edited November 12, 2023 by EricW

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I don’t mind either way. I think that Sandy still had Belintar as a time-traveller in 2014 or 2015 — IIRC, it is in one of the Kraken chapbooks — but by then, it didn’t matter what he thought.

Well, the only time I have ever involved Belintar in my RQ, he was a time traveler.  He gets trapped in a Lunar Hell, only to escape by going back in time to live out a very long Groundhog Day.

[Erol of Backford]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:35 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

you changed the past, but because the past (or its echo) shows you what you have to do to obtain the rebirth "now"

Exactly.

On 11/10/2023 at 7:46 AM, Darius West said:

I'm glad they didn't opt to include it.

I am glad as well, I want to say it's a spiritual past or like the thread title Ghost Past which needs something conducted in its future to permit a rebirth, what have you... its not time travel but seems to be so for the PC's.

I like even more that it has something to do with mirages in the desert (Prax)...

On 11/10/2023 at 10:36 AM, mfbrandi said:

No degree in esoteric studies from the University of Gatekeeping is required, right?

You are right and you are right.

On 11/11/2023 at 5:27 AM, EricW said:

Obviously there must be a way for players to return

I was imagining that if they are, for instance, in Monkey Ruins and at that particular time they visit it is actively a Ghost Ruin at that time, they step in and it is functionally the past but it's more an illusion that you act in physically than really the past. This eliminates "time travel" if that is an issue and once they step out of the ruins by a certain distance they are out of the illusion, mirage, etc. So getting out is actually as simple as walking across some sort of spiritual boundary. Who knows maybe it is a Hero Quest but I hadn't thought of that in any detail...

Is there a Monkey Ruins Hero Quest or one for other places that could be Ghost Ruins?

On 11/11/2023 at 6:32 AM, Darius West said:

the only time I have ever involved Belintar in my RQ

This may be deserving of some dislike but the whole Belintar and City of Wonders with the magic roads has never been part of Glorantha for me. Its way to hoaxy. We never had it back in the early 80's or we didn't know about it and so when it appeared for us it was, now that I recall, in its own right a Ghost Ruin. I am thinking the City of Wonders would be a thriving city but not something of the past or future like something Feldichi (as per the inversion of Clarke's theorem - Joerg wrote this - will make a new thread on Feldichi sometime) stuff... someone else has had to think that the City of Wonders is out of its proper time period in Glorantha?

Maybe that thought reinforces that Belintar was a time traveler? YGWV and so the magic roads have not been integrated for me.

Who knows maybe the next big champaign will have them included...

Edited November 12, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This may be deserving of some dislike but the whole Belintar and City of Wonders with the magic roads has never been part of Glorantha for me. Its way to hoaxy for me. We never had it back in the early 80's or we didn't know about it and so when it appears it was, now that I recall, in its own right a Ghost Ruin. I am thinking the City of Wonders would be a thriving city but not something of the past or future like something Feldichi (as per the inversion of Clarke's theorem - Joerg wrote this - will make a new thread on Feldichi) stuff... someone else has had to think that the City of Wonders is out of its proper time period in Glorantha?

Maybe that thought reinforces that Belintar was a time traveler? YGWV and so the magic roads have not been integrated for me.

Who knows maybe the next big campaign will have them included...

Well the City of Wonders has been part of Glorantha since the RuneQuest II Companion gave us a map of the Holy Country.  Each of the Holy Country's provinces is tied to an elemental rune, which is why it is called the Holy Country, and thus the City of Wonders can be seen as an analogy for the Spike.  The irony then being that Jar-Eel acts as Orlanth killing Yelm, while Harrek acts as Wakboth destroying the Spike.  It is quite likely that the magic roads are actual magic supplies to power the City of Wonders and all its magics.  Remember also that the Feldichi don't hold a candle to the Godlearners in terms of technomancy, and the Godlearners once owned a decent portion of the Holy Country.  The Holy Country of course also includes the sorcery of the God Forgot Islands.  On the whole, the City of Wonders is sort of like what Pavis was supposed to become.  It should be an amazing place where the markets are open day and night, and the people live in an art-adorned environment and enjoy a near-modern level of amenity provided by co-operating magics, but mainly from sorcery bent to civil projects.

As to who Belintar is.  I don't claim to know his origins, but I do know that he is a body hopping evil sorcerer much like Ephraim Waite from H.P. Lovecraft's "The Thing at the Doorstep".  That is the fate that awaits the winners of the Tournament of Luck and Death.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Darius West

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

someone else has had to think that the City of Wonders is out of its proper time period in Glorantha?

Basically, that is the point of it. The City of Wonders is at the peak of a Holy Proximate Realm magical build-up, a place where Time and Godtime approach one another. Much of its interior and many of its features belong into Godtime rather than History.

Its bridges are a feat of runic architecture, forming a fate rune connecting to the Sixths, much like Godunya's bridges are a huge geoglyph of his dragon rune.

[jajagappa]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:52 AM, Erol of Backford said:

I am thinking the City of Wonders would be a thriving city

Up until the demise of Belintar it is, and then quickly begins to fall apart. 

On 11/11/2023 at 7:52 AM, Erol of Backford said:

the whole Belintar and City of Wonders with the magic roads has never been part of Glorantha for me.

Been part of Glorantha since the RQ Companion when the Holy Country was first covered (and really hinted at in the earlier ads for the Masters of Luck and Death boardgame that was to have been the 3rd in that series). 

On 11/11/2023 at 7:52 AM, Erol of Backford said:

someone else has had to think that the City of Wonders is out of its proper time period in Glorantha?

It's one of those points where you find the mundane world and the God World is close proximity, so not so much out of proper "time period" as being partially outside of time altogether. 

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well the City of Wonders has been part of Glorantha since the RuneQuest II Companion gave us a map of the Holy Country. 

I'm not denying that. See 1983 map below. These rainbow bridges and fish roads no matter how canon they are, for me are hoaxy, simply put. I don't see rainbow bridges on the map and so we didn't have them. These no hate or anything, we didn't have them and so still don't. There is aways potential for Fish Roads for us but not sure? 

 

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Godlearners once owned a decent portion of the Holy Country

I'll need to search this up a bit... not in the know here. Read about Stich and Zoo, Clanking Ruins...

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

It should be an amazing place where the markets are open day and night, and the people live in an art-adorned environment and enjoy a near-modern level of amenity provided by co-operating magics, but mainly from sorcery bent to civil projects.

This is great and is mostly true for my Glorantha, just the rainbow bridges don't work as physical items. I'll think on them a bit more...

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Its bridges are a feat of runic architecture, forming a fate rune connecting to the Sixths, much like Godunya's bridges are a huge geoglyph of his dragon rune.

No denying what they are supposed to be... but if he were all that powerful why didn't he send a huge army north to crush the lunars with Tarsh and Sartar combined? Why didn't he kill the Lunar envoys who went too Greymane and get Ethirist to join their side. It's like he shouldn't have waited until the time of the game White Bear Red Moon. The game should have started for him like 200 years earlier... just says he's not that smart.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Up until the demise of Belintar it is, and then quickly begins to fall apart. 

And so it is a Ghost Ruin (half way hehehe)

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It's one of those points where you find the mundane world and the God World is close proximity, so not so much out of proper "time period" as being partially outside of time altogether. 

Ha, a future Ghost Ruin... of sorts. Thank you all.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

but if he were all that powerful why didn't he send a huge army north to crush the lunars with Tarsh and Sartar combined?

Because it was beyond the Holy Country. The power and magic is bound/held within the lands of Kethaela. It's a Golden Age there - peaceful, harmonious, with all the Elements in accord. 

Sending an army out of the Holy Country would break such boundaries, end the Golden Age, and bring back the Lesser Darkness.

(Of course, in the end, like all Golden Ages, it must come to an end - and does. The City of Dreams passes out of the mortal world, the elements again contend for rule, and the great magics held by the Tournament of Luck and Death are set free to empower the Hero Wars.)

[Nick Brooke]

There is a phenomenally good description and illustration of the City of Wonders in its heyday on pages 297-301 of Martin Helsdon's Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela. Just putting that out there, in case anyone thought it was only about messing about in boats.

[Nick Brooke]

On the time-travel front, the line I've heard from Jeff is that while Chaosium's principals did experiment with "time-travel via heroquesting" in various ways, Greg eventually concluded that if you include any time-travel elements in your setting, sooner or later your setting is only about time-travel, and that's not what he wanted Glorantha to be. So while you can find fragments of time-travel scattered throughout the literary history of Glorantha, the canonical setting won't entertain those old ideas. Your Glorantha, of course, Will Vary, but to the extent it becomes a time-travel setting, it'll be forking away from what Chaosium publishes and supports.

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

There is a phenomenally good description and illustration of the City of Wonders in its heyday on pages 297-301

Plus there is Greg's original map of the City of Wonders here: The City Of Wonders – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

[Erol of Backford]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:46 AM, Nick Brooke said:

that if you include any time-travel elements in your setting

We are not, it's a mirage and or illusion with spirits and a good amount of physical aspect. No time travel... somehow thinking of the Ghosts of Starfire Ridge, somehow, but not in that exact sense. Do the PC's walk the Hero Plane or whatever while they are in the Ghost Ruins, maybe, I don't know but its not, for me time travel.

The idea of Monkey Ruins being like the Garden of Babylon in all its splendor... or not?

On 11/12/2023 at 11:33 AM, jajagappa said:

original map of the City of Wonders

I have not seen that...

Thank you all for the input.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

There is also Kalin Kadiev's take on Pepperland in the Prince of Sartar comic, with six impossible towers housing the rainbow bridge termini: http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/29-the-city-of-wonders/

 

[Erol of Backford]

The towers don't bother me especially when there is Sog City, Dragon Ships and Handra exist... but who's face is on the mountain with the tongue that looks like a golden carpet to the right of the white tower and is that the palace?

   

[davecake]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:37 AM, Erol of Backford said:

to gather at Monkey ruins (like Burning Man in Prax)

I always figured Burning Man in Prax happened in the middle of a harsh alkali desert playa - so the Dead Place - so it’s at the Winter Ruins. One of the ways you banish the power of Winter is with a big burning figure. 
But the Monkey Ruins are all connected, clearly. The big wooden effigy on fire is clearly Oakfed burning all the ancient forests to save us in the Darkness, right?