Fire Gods and Lhankor Mhy

[Zalain]

Hello all,

i got a player which chracater is an initiated of Yelmalio. The adventures put the group in a small city with several temples of wind gods (one of them is from Lhankor mhy).

Well this player, surprising all, (characters, players and gamemaster -me-), manifested being interested joining Lhankor Mhy cult.

 

i played this this way: At first, the chief of the temple decline him. FOr weraing weapons, armor, marks and symbol of sun cult, and arguing any warrior doesnt have ANY knowledge to contribute with. But (character) player replied about a couple of knowledge skills he has over 50%. He meet the requirements to join Lhankor Mhy cult, in addition of Yelmalio.

Both cults are Neutral.

i thought admit him, but not allowing (for faith issues) sorcery spells.

or should i keep negate him??

[radmonger]

In Sartarite tribal society, it would be quite normal for a warrior-noble to semi-retire and become a lawspeaker of Lhankhor Mhy, handing out free advice to the current rulers as to how things used to be done. if the PC is of this type, a Lhankhor Mhy temple would likely just need proof of either clan support, or notable individual talent.

Or perhaps the PC is more of a warrior, serving in an organised regiment like the sun dome mercenaries? Then every such group needs clerks, and training such clerks is more or less Lhankor Mhy's job[1]. Not, perhaps, one they are particularly enthusiastic about. But something has to bring in the wheels to pay for repairs to the library roof.  A demonstrated willingness and ability to pay the full going price for such cult skills will go a long way to speeding such an application.

i suspect it probably is a good idea to have the temple in question not be one that has much capability to train sorcery. Just because mechanically the process of learning sorcery from scratch as an adult is probably going to be a waste of time and effort for everyone involved. Both in and out of world.

but if the player understand the consequences, i don;t think there would be any actual rule forbidding such teaching.

[1] At least now the Irripi Ontor temple got burnt down.

[Richard S.]

Yelmalio and Lhankor Mhy may not be friendly, but Cults of Prax did note that they do occasionally have close ties. Light Priests must be literate, which essentially makes Lhankor Mhy lay membership a requirement, and I'd bet there's a connection through mapmaking as well, which both Lhankor Mhy's Grey Ones and Yelmalio's Togtuvei teach. Sharing the Truth rune is doubtless also helpful.

I don't see any problem with allowing your player to join, but make sure to remind them that being a dual initiate is going to eat up a lot more of their free time and money. They might have some trouble getting accepted immediately, since they weren't an apprentice, but that's more a problem of how long it'll take rather than whether they can.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would ask the player if his/her character will ask the yelmalio hierarchy before trying to join LM

if both cults accept (I mean these specifics guys in this specific temples) then there would not be issue

But if not, as I imagine YO cult as very hierarchical, the priest must be angry to not be asked even if he think it is a good thing. And maybe the priest has some issue with this local LM who knows ? (The gm of course)

 

[metcalph]

There's always Buserian but I doubt there are any temples to him locally. 

[g33k]

I would ask first about the metagaming / MGF side of things, I think: 

Do you (as GM) actually have a "problem"  with this?  Does it break your understanding of the world in un-fun ways?
Does it (in any way) make things un-fun  for the other players at the table?
Once the downsides/consequences (huge time & money obligations; possible conflicting demands; etc) are made clear to the Y'alio/LM player, is this choice going to seem un-fun to them, in play?

If it's not going to add un-fun, then look to see if it's actually going to increase the MGF at the table... divided loyalties (between two temples) in one PC is often a good source of dramatic tension!

Edited December 7, 2023 by g33k
mis-Enter had mis-posted a barely-begun post

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's always Buserian but I doubt there are any temples to him locally. 

I don't think Yelmic Lhankor Mhy would have any more connection to Yelmalio than Lightbringer Lhankor Mhy does. Buserian is mostly a Dara Happan cult while Yelmalio is barely present there, so there might even be less of a connection.

[metcalph]

26 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think Yelmic Lhankor Mhy would have any more connection to Yelmalio than Lightbringer Lhankor Mhy does. Buserian is mostly a Dara Happan cult while Yelmalio is barely present there, so there might even be less of a connection.

Except that Yelmalio is present in Dara Happa.  From Cults of Runequest: Mythology p153-154

Darjiin 4%

Doblian 1%

Oraya 4%

Sylila 4%

 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Zalain said:

Hello all,

i got a player which chracater is an initiated of Yelmalio. The adventures put the group in a small city with several temples of wind gods (one of them is from Lhankor mhy).

Well this player, surprising all, (characters, players and gamemaster -me-), manifested being interested joining Lhankor Mhy cult.

i played this this way: At first, the chief of the temple decline him. FOr weraing weapons, armor, marks and symbol of sun cult, and arguing any warrior doesnt have ANY knowledge to contribute with. But (character) player replied about a couple of knowledge skills he has over 50%. He meet the requirements to join Lhankor Mhy cult, in addition of Yelmalio.

Both cults are Neutral.

i thought admit him, but not allowing (for faith issues) sorcery spells.

or should i keep negate him??

Lhankor Mhy has no problem with Yelmalions.  From the cult writeup p69 Cults of Runequest: The Lightbringers "They have no binding ties to any element and can advise Sun, Wind, Moon, or Earth with equal enthusiasm"  although I suspect "equal enthusiasm" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.  Yelmalions are forbidden sorcery according to the Well of Daliath but that's hardly a barrier to worshipping Lhankor Mhy.

[Richard S.]

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Except that Yelmalio is present in Dara Happa.  From Cults of Runequest: Mythology p153-154

Darjiin 4%

Doblian 1%

Oraya 4%

Sylila 4%

Whoops, I just completely missed that. Regardless, I still doubt they'd be any better than neutral.

[Shiningbrow]

Amongst the other things people have already said, there's a couple of other things not brought to the table from within the game (i.e, not  relating to @g33k's post).

The first is - you state he's a "Yelmalio" initiate, but is this the Sun Dome new type, or is it an Elmali holdover/traditionalist one? If there's a good Elmal connection, then you can make it work easier!

Secondly, LM doesn't really care that much about most other cults - but they do care about who they take in at an individual level. This may go against g33k, but you don't automatically get to initiate into a cult just because you have the skills! As per the Lightbringers book, they'd expect a healthy dose of time as a Lay Member before even considering initiation. There are two Lay options - pay and go (worshipper), and Apprentice. The first is simple - hand over some money, and you get to pay for some training. The second is a dedication to the god through time spent being a student... like, all of your time! Then, to Initiate to the higher levels, there's a couple of paths - if one was only a pay and go, then you need to convince the hierarchy - average of Best 'Sage' skill (e.g. Lore, Cartography, etc) and (INT x 5). If they were an Apprentice, then it's automatic... then, to remain an Initiate, you've got to stay at the temple and read/write for the rest of your life!! (well, not really, but still..... 90% of your time has just vanished).

So, logically, there's not really a good reason to join LM except to get free training in one area. Not becoming an initiate still allows you access to the same skills - it's just more expensive.

 

I completely agree with @French Desperate WindChild - he *needs* to ask the Yelmalio officials if they'll let him join at anything over Pay & Go worshipper. The time committment is too great otherwise.

What might make sense is for the Yelmalio hierarchy to decide they need a scribe, and thus will pay for his training in R/W, and maybe some other Lore or similar. But, this is really only going to work on the 1 adventure per season model. The rest is spent cloistered away.

 

Sorcery is not happening... certainly not in any short term. Due to the amount of time and effort required to use it, it clashes with the far more important aims of the cult of getting Initiates able to bring in money and knowledge (i.e, learning to R/W as well as the Sage skill). And, in a small city, there won't be many who even know any. And will have a limited selection of spells (and, as mentioned previously, Yelmalio doesn't allow it - although, I personally see a difference between meldek godless sorcery, and Lhankoring magic)

[Richard S.]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The first is - you state he's a "Yelmalio" initiate, but is this the Sun Dome new type, or is it an Elmali holdover/traditionalist one? If there's a good Elmal connection, then you can make it work easier!

I don't think the Runegate Yelmalians have any more connection to Lhankor Mhy than the Sun Dome does. Even going back to Storm Tribe I'm not seeing anything.

[David Scott]

My tuppence:

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

i played this this way: At first, the chief of the temple decline him. FOr weraing weapons, armor, marks and symbol of sun cult, and arguing any warrior doesnt have ANY knowledge to contribute with. But (character) player replied about a couple of knowledge skills he has over 50%. He meet the requirements to join Lhankor Mhy cult, in addition of Yelmalio.

The main issue is as a dual initiate, take up time and money. We already have a published example of a Yelmalio / Lightbringer individual in Sora Goodseller, Priestess of Issaries, Initiate of Yelmalio (GM Screen Pack Adventure book 28). Dual initiates are likely rare and Yelmalio / Lightbringer combos rarer, but it shouldn't be a reason to say no to the player.

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

Both cults are Neutral.

Neutral means: Neutral Cults - Such cults act according to present circumstance. Trouble may occur, but the spark must be deliberate, not caused by minor squabbles. They aren't Hostile or enemies, so that looks good to me.

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

i thought admit him,

Sounds good, just maybe hard as a dual initiate. Initiates must give at least 1/10 of their income and 1/10 of their free time to the temple. (RQG 275).

They will have to join Lhankor Mhy as a Worshipper not an Apprentices/Student: They'll need a Rune at 50% (in this case it's likely to be Truth), 50% in a Sage skill, and then take the test: (best Sage skill % + [INT×5]) / 2 or less on D100, then pay the 1 POW. If they fail, it's once per year. 

One area of training won't be available to them: Oratory from  Eurmal, Eurmal is Hostile to Yelmalio.

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

but not allowing (for faith issues) sorcery spells.

Yes no sorcery, forbidden in the Core Rules and in the upcoming Solar book for Yelmalio initiates.

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

or should i keep negate him??

No

Edited December 9, 2023 by David Scott

[soltakss]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Zalain said:

i played this this way: At first, the chief of the temple decline him. FOr weraing weapons, armor, marks and symbol of sun cult, and arguing any warrior doesnt have ANY knowledge to contribute with. But (character) player replied about a couple of knowledge skills he has over 50%. He meet the requirements to join Lhankor Mhy cult, in addition of Yelmalio.

Both cults are Neutral.

i thought admit him, but not allowing (for faith issues) sorcery spells.

or should i keep negate him??

Why stop him?

You did a good thing by playing it out. Refusing a warrior is a knee-jerk reaction that a Sage might do, but the Yelmalian showing that he had the right skills and could qualify for cult membership was a great move. The Yelmalian could show his Truth Rune, for that is a common Rune with Lhankor Mhy.

Personally, I'd allow the Yelmalian to join but maker it difficult. Give him a Quest to prove his willingness and worthiness to join. It doesn't have to be a HeroQuest, maybe to find some lost knowledge or to take a book from a library in the Yelmalio Temple and to bring it to the Lhankor Mhy Temple. That way, he has to prove his loyalty to Lhankor Mhy instead of Yelmalio. Of course, he could try to persuade the Yelmalio Temple to loan a book or scroll to the Lhankor Mhy Temple.

Also, as mentioned previously, Lhankor Mhy is Buserian when worshipped in Dara Happa, and Buserian might be an Associate Cult of Yelmalio. The Yelmalian could explore that aspect of Lhankor Mhy and prove something about the cults, maybe exploring a deeper relationship.

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think the Runegate Yelmalians have any more connection to Lhankor Mhy than the Sun Dome does. Even going back to Storm Tribe I'm not seeing anything.

I wasn't thinking from a cult pespective per se, but from a traditional Orlanthi (the peoples) perspective.

[Zalain]

Thank you all for your answers.

I took the decision to allow him join the cult of Lhankor mhy, but thanks of your answers i see there are some extra counterparts the Yelmalian player has to accept.

Most of the players of my group doesnt like worship or play as fanatic follower of the gods they follow.

I had a orlanthi/storm bull character that wasnt impulse or violent at all. (The player was unable to play an aggressive character so now is a silver dwarf).

I had Lhankor Mhy initiate that didnt like to investigate... Emmm... Nothing. And now is the sorcerer tainted by chaos that i mentioned in other post).

i had a shaman follower of Daka Fal, that NEVER became incorporate, used axis mundi or or talked to his ancestors...). 

And now my Yelmalio warrior wants to join Lhankor Mhy...

... Im about to cry.

 

The fact is the magic of lhankor mhy would be welcome in future games where knowledge and adivination spells could give extra clues to mysteries.

[hasevir]

sry wrong thread, please no eat trollkin

Edited December 11, 2023 by hasevir

[mfbrandi]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:56 PM, Zalain said:

And now my Yelmalio warrior wants to join Lhankor Mhy … I’m about to cry.

Don’t play every tune straight, then they will go further? Is fellow aloof, coded masculine, literate Truth cult so much of a stretch, anyway? (See Cults of Prax Classic (p. 55) for Lhankor Mhy as the Yelmalians’ favourite Lightbringer.)

Edited December 13, 2023 by mfbrandi
verbosity reduced

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:56 PM, Zalain said:

I had a orlanthi/storm bull character that wasnt impulse or violent at all.

Sounds about right! Remember tht Orlanth has other roles (such as being Bards and the occasional Lawspeaker).

Cool, controlled Stormbull sounds good! As long as they fight the Chaos when it comes.

(besides, what would a child raised in a Stormbull cult be like? Would they rebel against their parents' ideals/fanatacism??)

 

On 12/11/2023 at 10:56 PM, Zalain said:

I had Lhankor Mhy initiate that didnt like to investigate... Emmm... Nothing.

Most don't. They prefer to stay safe and warm in their temples. reading through manuscripts, and writing out the occasional missive for someone else (and get paid for it). The LM adventurers are the rare (and annoying) ones.

 

On 12/11/2023 at 10:56 PM, Zalain said:

i had a shaman follower of Daka Fal, that NEVER became incorporate, used axis mundi or or talked to his ancestors...). 

If a child "got the calling", but didn't really want to follow that path, then it makes sense! That's actually a fairly normal thing, even in the 'real world', and it can take decades for someoene to finally come around (and sometimes - perhaps often) never!

Then of course, there are those whose parents needed to pay for a service, and do so by 'donating' their child to become an assistant (again, against the will of the child).

[Ironwall]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:11 AM, hasevir said:

sry wrong thread, please no eat trollkin

No promises