Shaman-Priests in RuneQuest

[Snork]

Checked main rules and Cults book for both Daka Fal and Waha with respect to tithes to temple for a priest/shaman

Doesn't feel right that they give up 90% of their income as they're no temples to support just them

The specific PC is playing an Earth Wicth whcih has a similar set up

Any ideas or input would be appreciated

[Joerg]

Shamans sell spells and spend the income on upkeep of their community. A spell costs about twice the annual income of a freeman. Say four spells sold in a season, 20 spells in a year, twice the freeman income.

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, ajs said:

Checked main rules and Cults book for both Daka Fal and Waha with respect to tithes to temple for a priest/shaman

They are cult shaman-priests that likely are running the temple, any income goes to their temple (them). They manage it on behalf of the cult and all the other income. It's the same for issaries priest who are basically the temple.

2 hours ago, ajs said:

Doesn't feel right that they give up 90% of their income as they're no temples to support just them

Anything they need, comes from their tithe. Eg, their noble standard of living is paid from that.

2 hours ago, ajs said:

The specific PC is playing an Earth Wicth whcih has a similar set up

Earth witch is a spirit cult and unless affiliated with an an Ernalda temple would be independant. Independant shaman have no cult tithing (no cult) and must support themselves. Rather than getting into a running a shop game, a shaman has an income of 30L (Poor SoL) and uses their Spirit Combat or Spirit Travel as occupational income skills.

A cult shaman will likely use a noble income.

[PhilHibbs]

To me, the bigger problem is how do you run an adventuring campaign with a shaman-priest of Waha in the party, like Vishi Dunn becomes in the Vasana story.

In the story, it is glossed over. He continues to be a wandering adventurer. That's what most people are going to want to do. But there is no guidance on how to do this, all the rules in the book basically say you can't do it - they don't explicitly say this, but the most obvious interpretation is that it basically is end of adventuring career in the traditional sense. It's clearly a mistaken interpretation, but is a common initial assumption.

I have no problem, I can deal with this. I've dealt with it before in previous editions of the game, we can come up with our own mental gymnastics in our group to work around these problems because we're experienced RuneQuest players.

A lot of players are not, and are going to see these obligations as an impasse. This question is an example of this rules-versus-intent problem, the questioner asks how to cope with a 90% income tithe, and the official answer is "he gives 90% of his income to himself".

[jajagappa]

I think the challenge is that you have to shift the focus. It is no longer a wandering adventurer, but the shaman-priest has to become the leader of their Community.  There is something of a model for this with the JC book Company of the Dragon. 

It also means that one player, the shaman-priest, must come to terms with being the full leader of the community, and the GM needs to direct issues at the shaman-priest that create conflicts to deal with: multiple foes/villains (both mundane and in the Spirit World), ensuring worship is conducted, ensuring the demands of the spirits are met, addressing challenges from other Waha shaman-priests, the calls from Eiritha priestesses for aid, etc.

I'd largely avoid the income issue as a bookkeeping headache and abstract it, but the shaman-priest also is now responsible for feeding, sheltering, and ensuring the protection of the community. They can take all the "income" for themselves, but there will be constant demands by the assistant shamans, the guards, etc. which will force the shaman-priest to either spend the income for the community or face desertion by the community.

Edited March 5 by jajagappa

[radmonger]

Being any kind of priest to a community is like owning a horse. Very useful for doing horse-stuff, very awkward to bring into a dungeon.

If you can deal with players owning horses, the same techniques apply to communities.

1. ignore it; you leave your horse tied up off-screen and it is there when you return. Even if you came out of a different exit to the dungeon.
2. run mostly outdoors adventures
3. require players to realistically deal with hiring someone to guard their horse.
4. invent an explicit magical item like a Bag of Stabling.
5. kill their horse.

For option #3, the 90% time/income would be literal if they were supporting the community by mercenary adventuring, and explicitly compensating someone to do the boring parts for them full-time. Your apprentice can't bless the crops as well as you would, but maybe you make silver that will buy enough grain to make up the difference.

Which is quite likely not a sensible trade-off for the relatively minor power bumps that being a Priest gives. RQ:G is not RQ2 where you needed to mechanically become a Rune Priest in order to get reusable rune magic. So, if you are taking this approach, PCs should generally only become priests when they are going to be spending at least some time with that community.

 

[svensson]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

To me, the bigger problem is how do you run an adventuring campaign with a shaman-priest of Waha in the party, like Vishi Dunn becomes in the Vasana story.

In the story, it is glossed over. He continues to be a wandering adventurer. That's what most people are going to want to do. But there is no guidance on how to do this, all the rules in the book basically say you can't do it - they don't explicitly say this, but the most obvious interpretation is that it basically is end of adventuring career in the traditional sense. It's clearly a mistaken interpretation, but is a common initial assumption.

I have no problem, I can deal with this. I've dealt with it before in previous editions of the game, we can come up with our own mental gymnastics in our group to work around these problems because we're experienced RuneQuest players.

A lot of players are not, and are going to see these obligations as an impasse. This question is an example of this rules-versus-intent problem, the questioner asks how to cope with a 90% income tithe, and the official answer is "he gives 90% of his income to himself".

Well, there is one major detail in Vishi's story that is important in the 'wandering adventurer' statement. Vishi IS NOT a shaman of Grandmother High Llama or any other tribal spirit confined to Prax. He is a shaman of the White Bull, aka Argrath. His wanderings are in direct service to the cult and in support of Argrath's aims just as much as Vasana's are.

While Vishi doesn't have an infrastructure to support, he does have to spend significant amounts of time in the Otherworld questing and growing in power completely separate from the party's adventuring goals. This leaves him little time for a 'day job', so to speak.

That is one aspect of the sample party narrative I wish the writers of the authors had thought of... the transition of 'Bob the Farmer' into both an adventurer and to possibly a Rune level worshiper of his deity. All the magicians in Vasana's Band are society's outliers... a noble woman, a professional temple-raised priestess, a professional shaman... they're not 'Annie the Craftswoman' or 'Bob the Farmer'. It can be difficult to reconcile what's on your character sheet with Vasana's epic tale.

[g33k]

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think the challenge is that you have to shift the focus. It is no longer a wandering adventurer, but the shaman-priest has to become the leader of their Community.  There is something of a model for this with the JC book Company of the Dragon ... 

I think that's only one path forward.
The Really Big Names don't settle down to a community-focus lifestyle...  Jar-Eel wanders all over the WBRM map, and Argrath & Harrek circumnavigate the world.

Granted they aren't explicitly "Shaman-Priests," but the principle holds that they are the ultimate "PC Exemplar" characters, the heights of lofty power to which PC's often aim.

Moreover, the players themselves often prefer the "wandering adventurer" lifestyle for their PC's; for many it's what "feels like RuneQuest:"  they were often given the "Grand Tour of Glorantha" treatment by their GM's who wanted to show off everything from the bustle of Nochet, to the arid wastes of the Wastes, to the stunning spectacle of Skyfall Lake (and falls!), to the weirdnesses of City of Glamour nightclubs, and Dragonewt cities.  They have delved into the Earth Mysteries in the depths of the Paps, and ascended the slopes of Kero Fin to expand with the rarefied Air.

They don't really want to become stay-at-home PC's.  I think PhilHibbs' comments here are entirely valid -- the rules (so far) don't seem to support adventuring Shaman-Priests (and, FWIW many other Priest/Priestess characters adventuring instead of "settling down" as Community Leaders and chairpeople of the local PTA):

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

To me, the bigger problem is how do you run an adventuring campaign with a shaman-priest of Waha in the party, like Vishi Dunn becomes in the Vasana story.

In the story, it is glossed over. He continues to be a wandering adventurer. That's what most people are going to want to do. But there is no guidance on how to do this, all the rules in the book basically say you can't do it - they don't explicitly say this, but the most obvious interpretation is that it basically is end of adventuring career in the traditional sense. It's clearly a mistaken interpretation, but is a common initial assumption.

I have no problem, I can deal with this. I've dealt with it before in previous editions of the game, we can come up with our own mental gymnastics in our group to work around these problems because we're experienced RuneQuest players.

A lot of players are not, and are going to see these obligations as an impasse. This question is an example of this rules-versus-intent problem, the questioner asks how to cope with a 90% income tithe, and the official answer is "he gives 90% of his income to himself".

I am hoping, on this front, that the GM's Book -- when it comes out -- will help us with these sorts of issues.

[Snork]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

 

Which is quite likely not a sensible trade-off for the relatively minor power bumps that being a Priest gives. RQ:G is not RQ2 where you needed to mechanically become a Rune Priest in order to get reusable rune magic. So, if you are taking this approach, PCs should generally only become priests when they are going to be spending at least some time with that community.

 

The power trade off for being a shaman is significant and it's the only reason they became a priest

[French Desperate WindChild]

the point for me is that, if we have to "obey" the rules, a group of  shaman, priests and rune lords should "retire". The major issue is the 90% time duty for the community.

Of course there are exceptions like

- cult with a time's duty is low (Issaries ...), 

- priests and rune lords dedicated to discovery new things (I have no issue with a LM adventuring priest for example, ..well there is a limit : the LM must find something, write something, etc... if the adventures benefits are only guilders that's not good)

- priests and rune lords of a very little and wandering community (storm khan, humakt leader of a mercenary troop, etc...) In that case the community is the pcs group and some followers.

- and another but very specific option, is there are all from the same community AND the campaign is the community management. So maybe a scenario is to visit a "dungeon" or to visit Prax, then have to fight for/against the craddle by opportunity. But these scenarios should be exception, and the  majority should be in and around the community.

 

Another option should be to "extend" god talkers but that's house rule (however I'm pretty sure the large majority of GMs who faces the case of a pc reaching the shaman or priest level doesn't change anything in their scenario management, so about every one houserules this issue)

PC are not priests, or not shaman of a community as described in the rules, they don't obtain any mundane benefit from their communities. but don't have to manage a temple (aka they don't "waste 90% of their time")

but for any reason (luck, devotion, deeds, ...) they have  the otherworld benefits. They may be shaman (aka fetch) but outside any community, they may gain all the magical benefits of a priest (easy pow, easy replenishing). Same with a rune lord, not dedicated to a temple/community but getting their "orders" directly from their gods.

 

[Runeblogger]

I think the biggest challenge is how to accommodate the different duties of a varied group of PCs when all of them achieve Runelord/Shaman/Priest status.

Greg Stafford solved the issue by running a campaign where all PCs where humakti or initiates of related deities, so all their motivations where aligned.

In the White Bull series on YouTube by Jeff Richard, all PCs are following Argrath's orders, so Argrath's army becomes their "Community". For example, an Orlanthi runelord can keep doing what Orlanthi runelords do, because their motivation is 100% aligned with Argrath's goal: "destroying the Red Goddess". If the humakti in that party became a Sword of Humakt, he could take command of a unit of humaktis in Argrath's army, and so on.

The trick is to think about this beforehand and tell your players about it.

I didn't, so I'm not sure what is going to happen in my campaign and my group of PCs adventuring in Pavis, Prax and the Big Rubble in 1620 when they all become runelords. I guess the Vingan and the Humakti could decide to liberate Pavis from the Lunars, but the Veskarthan/Lodril initiate, the Aldryami, and the Agimori shaman who is looking for the members of his clan who were sold into slavery all over Prax... 🤔 I guess we'll need to figure it out! 😜 (Any suggestions are welcome!)

Edited March 5 by Runeblogger

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Jar-Eel wanders all over the WBRM map, and Argrath & Harrek circumnavigate the world.

Yes, but Jar-eel must support and is supported by the Moonsword cult (as directed by Aelwrin who is effectively her shaman-priest). Similarly, Argrath has to lead and support the Whitebull cult, and Harrek his Wolf Pirates. They are not isolated individuals, and when they go into the Otherworld or battle, they likely go with Companions. 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

They don't really want to become stay-at-home PC's.  I think PhilHibbs' comments here are entirely valid -- the rules (so far) don't seem to support adventuring Shaman-Priests (and, FWIW many other Priest/Priestess characters adventuring instead of "settling down" as Community Leaders and chairpeople of the local PTA)

A Community does not have to be settled, nor does the Shaman-Priest, but they need to interact if the shaman-priest is to deliver their promises of worship to the spirits they have allied. The White Bull horde is ready to go everywhere that Argrath goes. The Wolf Pirates are constantly on the move. Even the Company of the Dragon could be a roving mercenary band. The problem in all these cases is logistics - they do have to be fed, they do need shelter. If the community is small enough, then travelling via caravanserai's, or pitching tents, is workable. 

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I didn't, so I'm not sure what is going to happen in my campaign and my group of PCs adventuring in Pavis, Prax and the Big Rubble in 1620 when they all become runelords. I guess the Vingan and the Humakti could decide to liberate Pavis from the Lunars, but the Veskarthan/Lodril initiate, the Aldryami, and the Agimori shaman who is looking for the members of his clan who were sold into slavery all over Prax... 🤔 I guess we'll need to figure it out! 😜 (Any suggestions are welcome!)

Look to Argrath and the Sartar Magical Union!  Whether the Eleven Lights, the Snakepipe Dancers, or any other SMU unit, these are a group of rune lords, shamans, and other magic wielders who have found a common cause to work together which is exemplified by their wyter (which is the spirit at the center of their community). 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but Jar-eel must support and is supported by the Moonsword cult (as directed by Aelwrin who is effectively her shaman-priest). Similarly, Argrath has to lead and support the Whitebull cult, and Harrek his Wolf Pirates. They are not isolated individuals, and when they go into the Otherworld or battle, they likely go with Companions. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

A Community does not have to be settled, nor does the Shaman-Priest, but they need to interact if the shaman-priest is to deliver their promises of worship to the spirits they have allied. The White Bull horde is ready to go everywhere that Argrath goes. The Wolf Pirates are constantly on the move. Even the Company of the Dragon could be a roving mercenary band. The problem in all these cases is logistics - they do have to be fed, they do need shelter. If the community is small enough, then travelling via caravanserai's, or pitching tents, is workable. 

I really hope the GM's book delves into these sorts of ideas!

[svensson]

OK, as usual the discussion is wide-ranging, though oddly for us we haven't digressed completely off the track. 😁

I'll address some of the stuff I'm seeing as a point-by-point just to keep my own thoughts organized.

1. It's the GMs job to help the player visualize their character sheet and the Epic Story of their career. Reconciling the story and the numbers has always been the chief burden of the narrator and this is why we have to remember to give some leeway in how the players use their skills and not stifle their creativity.

2. I'm hoping that Jar-Eel and Aelwin's situation becomes more clear when the Lunars Gods book comes out this month. I don't perceive them having much of a shaman component at all, but I might be wrong.

3. Vasana's Band may not be a part of the Sartar Magical Union, though they could easily develop that way. Right now Vasana is on the path of Herodom and so I see her friends, apprentices, and hangers-on as a more temporal Hero Band and doers of things Argrath wants done on Glorantha rather than the Hero Plane. This is entirely fine. The Hero Wars will be fought on multiple battlefields [Mundane Plane, Hero Plane, Spirit Plane, the Hells, and so forth] and Argrath is gonna need assets in every one of them.

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, svensson said:

2. I'm hoping that Jar-Eel and Aelwin's situation becomes more clear when the Lunars Gods book comes out this month. I don't perceive them having much of a shaman component at all, but I might be wrong.

I've not seen any indication to date that we'll see anything detailed on Jar-eel, Beatpot, or the Moonsword cult. 

Since Jar-eel is the Red Goddess' avatar in the world, I agree that she's not shaman per se, but I think any Hero Cult will function very similar to a shamanic Spirit Cult. Jar-eel needs power and worship to do the things she does. Beatpot and the Moonsword cult provide that worship and allow her the ability to regularly engage in the Otherworld and deal with threats there. But she likely leads a group of companions most of the time (might be Beatpot, might be others) in her forays both mundane and magical.

My point with her was simply that a shaman and their community can function similarly - moving about, going where threats exist (as perceived by the shaman or their spirit guides), conducting the worship necessary to allow the shaman to deal with spirits and lead spirit cult worship, etc. (and still effectively be adventurers).

[radmonger]

12 hours ago, Snork said:

The power trade off for being a shaman is significant and it's the only reason they became a priest

True, but there are few reasons for becoming a shaman-priest over than a pure shaman, other than what the latter can do for a community. As pointed out above Vishi is a shaman of the White Bull, not a shaman-priest of Waha.

Is there perhaps an issue with the Lightbringers book being published, but the Spirits one not, so the purist option isn't front-and-center at the same level?

 

11 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I think the biggest challenge is how to accommodate the different duties of a varied group of PCs when all of them achieve Runelord/Shaman/Priest status.

The general fix here is to interpret 'doing things for the cult' as 'doing cult things for their community'. A Humakti Rune Lord fights for the clan, a Barntari Godtalker feeds it. Neither would ever get called away from doing so by some nebulous 'cult' duties that don't correspond to something in-game that such characters would be expected to do

All that is then necessary is to ensure that the PCs are involved with the same community. A clan is perhaps the most natural way to do that, but there are many others; a tribe, a warband, a ships crew.

One time Greg resorted to the bag of stabling option.

 

 

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

A Community does not have to be settled, nor does the Shaman-Priest, but they need to interact if the shaman-priest is to deliver their promises of worship to the spirits they have allied. The White Bull horde is ready to go everywhere that Argrath goes. The Wolf Pirates are constantly on the move. Even the Company of the Dragon could be a roving mercenary band. The problem in all these cases is logistics - they do have to be fed, they do need shelter. If the community is small enough, then travelling via caravanserai's, or pitching tents, is workable. 

I agree, but in that case (aka pcs forms their own community, and as priests (or shaman or runelord) they serve this community) it means they are not any more full member of any clan community, just relative.

As I understand, if zogzog is priest and member of the Colymar, zogzog is priest of the Colymar (the 90% duty)

But if zogzog says to the chief priest of the Colymar temple

"look, we were friends when we were children, I hope we are still friends, you gave me the priest status few years ago, all of that I agree,

but now, you know, I don't care your orders, I will not bless the Colymar lands and will not lead any ceremony for them because I m the priest of my "band" (with praxian shaman, lunar sorcerer, seshngi warrior, .... all of them not worship our priest god, by the way... so priest of no one except himself) I take care of my "band" and my "band" is free like the air and can go where it wants, with or without what the Colymar ring and priests says"

of course with words inspired by Issaries and not by Vadrus 😛 I m pretty sure that the Colymars will say (again with Issaries, or even Uleria intervention), ok , thanks, good bye then. We are still friends, but now, as you say your duty is not toward us, your loyalty is more for your friends than for us so our loyalty will reflect your decision. You cannot act in our name anymore, you can't expect us to respect our duties toward our tribe/clan members.

 

of course if our band is loyal to a very large imperialist community (like the white bull campaign), Argrath, the lunar Empire - not the XXX clan of Saird, Trash, Sartar or Prax-  there is a room for more or less "free" adventure for priests.

 

But as @Runeblogger notices, if the band doesn't share any god, if the band has no common loyalty except to their members, what does that mean to have priests ?

 

ok the two rune lords, may have "right" to be loyal to the others, if the band continues to move and then they can prove how honorable and proud their gods are but....

A priest of Lodril without any initiate or lay member ? with only a ridiculous charriot as shrine ?

A priest of Aldrya without any garden ? just one or two plant pots ?

What will decide the player of the Agimori shaman once they succeed to free the clan ? Will the player retire the shaman ? or play her only once per year, because the rest of the time she must manage spirit for her clan ? Or decide to leave the clan in good condition then continue to visit the world with her friends ?

 

Note that I m not considering this group (Vinga, Humakt, Lodril, Aldrya, Agimori) is a bad group. Just that the roles and duty of priests (shaman included) described by the rules don't fit for a game where there are such a group of "free / open" adventurers.

In the same way, the priest is for me well designed in the rule for a real priest occupation (manage a community of worshippers)

the issue I see is like the history process of the generation, the rules fit well for hero who will decide to follow Argrath or another big leader (so with a community who can support their "carreer" objectives in anyway).

But if you want to play a little band of independant "brothers", with no interests for politics as a group - or no strong loyalty to one  faction if you prefer - it is a little bit harder

Not a big issue of course, it is easy to "forget" a part of the duty . Or like me sometimes, considering that becoming a priest or a rune lord is not really important as you don't lose your spell as an initiate... it is so easy to refuel your RP.

But maybe, in rqg 2040, it could be nice to offer a "career", "class", "occupation" for rune level of the three magic paths (Zzaburi, Shaman, "choosen by a god" holy people) and for each of them, define different sub classes (the priest as is who manages the temple is one subclass, but one or two others who have no temple to manage, a shaman "as is" who serves her community, but a shaman without community who serves something else - a great entity for example-, or why not a totally free and lone shaman ). Same magical powers and benefits, but different duties, toward different "target/leader", and different mundane benefit.

 

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In the same way, the priest is for me well designed in the rule for a real priest occupation (manage a community of worshippers)

While it is not afaik explicitly stated in the rules, for me priest inherently needs a wyter in the same sense that a shaman needs a fetch. It is their means of interacting with the Other Side; they can't priest without it. And a wyter is a community spirit, so a priest needs a community.

 

Some personally leave the mundane world, and interact with the Gods of the otherworld directly without a proxy such as a wyter, fetch or whatever sorcerors use,. Those people are called heroes. These are supposed to break the rules, but I suspect some people are gong to need written permission to do so.

Edited March 6 by radmonger
tweak diagram

[Snork]

34 minutes ago, radmonger said:

While it is not afaik explicitly stated in the rules, for me priest inherently needs a wyter in the same sense that a shaman needs a fetch. It is their means of interacting with the Other Side; they can't priest without it. And a wyter is a community spirit, so a priest needs a community.

 

Some personally leave the mundane world, and interact with the Gods of the otherworld directly without a proxy such as a wyter, fetch or whatever sorcerors use,. Those people are called heroes. These are supposed to break the rules, but I suspect some people are gong to need written permission to do so.

What about wandering priests? Roaming the countryside. Probably only visit shrines as congregation numbers are low. Still get MP and points of POW for their god. 

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, Snork said:

What about wandering priests? Roaming the countryside. Probably only visit shrines as congregation numbers are low. Still get MP and points of POW for their god. 

RAW, a priest position requires a small temple to support it. A godtalker can be supported by/supporting a shrine, but the income situation is different.

[French Desperate WindChild]

46 minutes ago, radmonger said:

While it is not afaik explicitly stated in the rules, for me priest inherently needs a wyter in the same sense that a shaman needs a fetch. It is their means of interacting with the Other Side; they can't priest without it. And a wyter is a community spirit, so a priest needs a community.

i m not sure there is a wyter for each priest.

there is a wyter for a clan,  sometimes for a band, if the band is strong enough to obtain it.

and yes you need a priest for this wyter.

 

But in a clan/tribe, you may find several temples of different gods. Is there a wyter for each temple ? maybe (i would say yes imo)

But in a temple, you may have several priests, and a hierachy . Are there several wyter ? I don't think so. If there is a wyter in a temple, the priest of the wyter would probably be the leader of the temple(or one of his/her favorites).

So for me you are not a priest because you "have" a wyter (you need to have a fetch to be a shaman). You are a priest because you have a role in the temple.

46 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Some personally leave the mundane world, and interact with the Gods of the otherworld directly without a proxy such as a wyter, fetch or whatever sorcerors use,. Those people are called heroes. These are supposed to break the rules

I agree. in the other hand... why are there rules about priesthood for us irl, if the first thing we (irl) have to do is to not follow the rules for our pc once they reach the priest or shaman or rune lord status ?

 

20 minutes ago, Snork said:

What about wandering priests? Roaming the countryside. Probably only visit shrines as congregation numbers are low. Still get MP and points of POW for their god. 

yes that's my answer with "subclass" but that s not the rules (and the debate, somewhere 🙂 )

you have temple priests, you may have wandering priests, you may have missionaries, inquisitors, etc... and/or you may have "hero"/"champion"/"choosen" like

 

my house rule is not by subclass by the way, it is a matrix :

in one dimension, you have your mundane role:

- You are a priest in a temple (with or without building) you get the mundane benefits and the mundane duties (90% time, 90%tithes *),

- same with a shaman of a community

- or a rune lord (iron gear, lifestyle, temple support etc..),

- and the last is you are not working for your community as member of your cult hierarchy (aka you have the 10% time and tithes of an initiate * )

 

in the seconde dimension you have a relationship with your god, you get the "magical" benefits and duties (restrictions, worship sessions, etc...)

- you can be welcomed (access of runespells, etc.. like an initiate)

- a holy guy (magical benefits of a priest even if you are not a mundane priest)

- a champion (magical benefits of a rune lord) etc...

- a shaman (you have a fetch so you are a shaman from the otherworld perspective)

 

with that matrix :

- A majority of priests are "holy" but you may find some priests (those who organise the temple activity) with only the welcomed status (no bonus to gain POW, etc...).

- some zzaburi are priests (mundane) when other are "just" sorcerers

- an initiate who travels the world to offer the words of her god to anyone, may gain the holy status from her god, even if she has no community, no temple.

- And you may meet @radmonger 's heroes (or mine 😛 ), who may be both holy and champion (and more, or less) because they succeed some heroic deeds.

 

but that's house answer for what I consider (probably a lot don't care) as a issue. But that's a little issue as I can manage it

 

* 90%, 10% etc... depends on the cult of course

 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

RAW, a priest position requires a small temple to support it. A godtalker can be supported by/supporting a shrine, but the income situation is different.

The anomaly here is Issaries, who has two types of priests, one of whom used to be (in older write ups) Rune Lords. The travelling princes of trade are rarely going to take a whole congregation with them on their travels. Though I suppose some caravans do get quite large?

I am minded to say that is a reflection of the special nature of Issaries; he can be temporarily accepted in any community open to trade. 

52 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But in a clan/tribe, you may find several temples of different gods. Is there a wyter for each temple ? maybe (i would say yes imo)

I would say no. As a default, the whole clan is a single community, typically tied together by the bonds of marriage. When things aren't that way, politics happen, and the clan may split. A regular priest or initiate in one of the clan temples has access to the clan wyter by being part of the clan. 

 

 

 

More details here.

 

[g33k]

@radmonger what are you using for these diagrams?

I'm looking for a good tool to support R-mapping, and this seems like a decent 1st cut!