The inspiration(s) for Glorantha's cosmology and gods

[Grivenger]

I've been reading the Lightbringer's book, the Earth Goddesses's book, and even the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I still struggle mildly with getting a grip on all its metaphysical splendour. Are there any real life religions from which some ideas are in Glorantha are taken? I believe Glorantha took some inspiration from proto-indo european religion, and therefore perhaps Vedic, and Sumerian/Akkadian gods are a good place to start?

Orlanth, however, makes me think that I should look closer at Greek Mythology and Norse Mythology, perhaps.

[Ynneadwraith]

I get the impression, that like many great creative works, its influences are widespread and varied such that it's difficult to pin anything really down and say 'this is inspired by X'. For me, this is an alternative way of looking at the phrase 'it's its own thing really'. But then I ascribe to the school that there is no such thing as true creative thought, and it's all just subconscious mish-mashing of many and varied influences.

Also, as a quibbling point that I'm not sure you're even making, Sumerian and Akkadian gods aren't held under the 'PIE' umbrella. I suppose you could argue that they're proto-Semitic if you want to imply that level of linearity between the two, with the Semitic and later Abrahamic traditions evolving out of what seems to be an endemic middle-eastern tradition of City Gods. They are, however, a good place to start when looking at the gods of Dara Happa.

[Joerg]

Greg Stafford was influenced by mythologers of the sixties and earlier when he wrote his first stories and expanded them in the seventies and early eighties to include the God Learner monomyth. You will find influences of Jung, Eliade and Campbell and probably their abstractions of the elemental deities at the root of quite a few  of the Gloranthan elemental deities, who in turn compiled their knowledge of Indo-European, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Indian, Chinese and other well-researched mythologies translated at the time, and possibly also some of the fantasy archaeology by Evans or Schliemann projecting stories on their finds. Research of real world myths and ancient textual sources has progressed quite a bit since the early days of writing about Glorantha.

[Brian Duguid]

For Orlanth, you could start with Indra. Even the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra should give you a few similarities, such as their similar power over thunder, the vajra, and their battles against evil serpents in order to free the rains. But that's largely what you'll find: occasional correspondences rather than a 1:1 mapping.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Grivenger said:

I've been reading the Lightbringer's book, the Earth Goddesses's book, and even the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I still struggle mildly with getting a grip on all its metaphysical splendour. Are there any real life religions from which some ideas are in Glorantha are taken? I believe Glorantha took some inspiration from proto-indo european religion, and therefore perhaps Vedic, and Sumerian/Akkadian gods are a good place to start?

Orlanth, however, makes me think that I should look closer at Greek Mythology and Norse Mythology, perhaps.

Lot of them. 

Some sources that are used particularly closely: Arthuriana, particularly the verse and prose romances and especially Malory. The Hebrew and Christian Bibles and source criticism of both. Norse mythology, but also the Icelandic sagas and Beowulf. Hurrian and Hittite mythology get a real workout in the Glorious Reascent and Fortunate Succession- an entire section of the Kumarbi cycle, the "Song of Silver", gets used for the Sun Dragon section in the latter. 

Greek and Roman mythology are valuable, of course, but especially look at mystery cults and both older, speculative analysis and more recent, soberer analysis. Mexican mythology has some striking parallels, especially Nahuatl and Oaxacan mythology, to later Staffordian Lunar writing. 

Then there's contemporary religions. Thelema, Theosophy, chaos magick, and a good look at pop-Zen in America in the 60s and 70s are valuable. Contemporaryish efforts at fantasy and mythology in conjunction, like Robert Graves, Michael Moorcock, maybe some Angela Carter, are worth examining too, along with comics.

Scholars that I find useful for both playfulness with Glorantha and in "following the trail" are Claude Lévi-Strauss, Georges Dumezil, Margaret Clunies Ross, Vladimir Propp, Mark S. Smith, John Day, and Neil Forsyth. If you really want to damage your life and possibly your mind, there's also Jacques Lacan and Ludwig Wittgenstein. All of these are in addition to, or supplementary towards, standard answers.

[Grivenger]

2 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I get the impression, that like many great creative works, its influences are widespread and varied such that it's difficult to pin anything really down and say 'this is inspired by X'. For me, this is an alternative way of looking at the phrase 'it's its own thing really'. But then I ascribe to the school that there is no such thing as true creative thought, and it's all just subconscious mish-mashing of many and varied influences.

Also, as a quibbling point that I'm not sure you're even making, Sumerian and Akkadian gods aren't held under the 'PIE' umbrella. I suppose you could argue that they're proto-Semitic if you want to imply that level of linearity between the two, with the Semitic and later Abrahamic traditions evolving out of what seems to be an endemic middle-eastern tradition of City Gods. They are, however, a good place to start when looking at the gods of Dara Happa.

Thanks for correcting me. I messed up and I should have said Vedic religions, but I had a tab open about Sumerian stuff, and I might be incorrect about a link there, too 

Thanks Joerg for those names. I'll look into them, and thanks Brian for pointing me towards Indra.

 

[scott-martin]

Love it. Response will be endless and it's all accurate. Like they say, whatever you love has already worked its way into the roots of Glorantha. For some people, this means Orlanth is Thor or Zeus, someone from an Edith Hamilton paperback. For people who prefer Karoly Karenyi, Orlanth is actually Apollo or Hermes the Thief and it's complicated. He can be Indra. He can be Seth, the other brother.

Same with everybody else. You go where it takes you and you either see Glorantha there or you don't. Ernalda is easy. There's a lot of Robert Graves in there from when Robert Graves was blowing a lot of dudes' minds. Then there was a lot of Marija Gimbutas. A lot of Mists of Avalon, even though that one has fallen far from favor.

He really loved Hesiod. But then again he was really moved by the book Shardik and the work of Rogan P Taylor, which is perversely available in plain sight to anyone bold enough to get an account.

Issaries is simultaneously a cheap gag ("Am Issaries = Emissaries") and a complicated footnote to Gurdjieff as suits the great god's nature.

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Orlanth is actually Apollo or Hermes the Thief and it's complicated.

Inclusive or, or even and? Orlanth strikes me as the kind of guy who would steal his own cattle.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Shardik

So Richard Adams was the grandmother of Harrek? With that, Art Garfunkel, and Bunnies & Burrows, the man has stuff to answer for.

[scott-martin]

43 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So Richard Adams was the grandmother of Harrek? With that, Art Garfunkel, and Bunnies & Burrows, the man has stuff to answer for.

Art Garfunkel would have found a way to become a problem in multiple timelines. I will forgive Adams for giving the world the band Owsla, which in turn gave the world my favorite novel of the plague decade, Seek The Throat From Which We Sing.

However I'm told we should roll the clip



This is not really a goofy tangent. What I like about it in the context of this thread is the fact that Greg got super inflamed by it initially. A bear who was god! But then he wanders off to make his own bear god man, a more satisfying execution. All our gloranthas are like that. "Take only what you need from it."
 

[Eff]

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is not really a goofy tangent. What I like about it in the context of this thread is the fact that Greg got super inflamed by it initially. A bear who was god! But then he wanders off to make his own bear god man, a more satisfying execution. All our gloranthas are like that. "Take only what you need from it."
 

You can taste the exile/escape from his personal Brithos there, wow.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Inclusive or, or even and? Orlanth strikes me as the kind of guy who would steal his own cattle.

...

Given that Runemagic is heroforming your god... 
and that cattle-raiding is a ubiquitous pastime of most Sartarites...

Orlanth is always stealing his own cattle.

[g33k]

Also:  I have long been struck by similarities between the "timeless" eternal Now of Glorantha's "God Time" with (what I understand of) the Australian "Dreamtime."

[Ali the Helering]

For me the joy of Greg's mythologising is that he would happily incorporate (almost?) anything into his thinking.  Don't impose a boundary - leap it!

[Ethereal]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

For me the joy of Greg's mythologising is that he would happily incorporate (almost?) anything into his thinking.  Don't impose a boundary - leap it!

I have noticed similiarities between Glorantha myths and Spiritualism. I think he used many Earth Myths to give a varied and interesting world.

[Sir_Godspeed]

One major theme of Glorantha, that of Storm vs. Sun/Sky is pretty likely derived from ancient Egyptian myths. Orlanth is akin to Set/Sutek, and Yelm is Ra or Osiris. The fun spin is not only the change in landscape, but also the typical reader's sympathies. It's as if Stafford went "okay, but what did all of this look like from Set's perspective?"

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Set does have some interesting parallels to Orlanth, particularly when understood holistically.

He was the god of the Red Land, after all— the desert, contrasted against the fertile Black Land of the Nile Delta. I wonder if Dara Happans might think of Orlanth as the God of the High Mountains. He was also the god of foreigners, that is, people who were not from the Black Land, the rich river delta, the heart of civilization.

However, while Set did dismember his brother Osiris and scatter those parts, his most important role was as Ra’s defender in the Underworld each night. The one time he did not join the honor guard, the (Chaotic) serpent Apep devoured the sun, and only Set was able to cut the sun out of Apep’s belly. While this protective role is likely assigned to Shargash in traditional Yelm-worship, one might see the seed of an interesting hill country heresy here. Yes, he is a usurper whose illegitimate attempt to seize power must be opposed, but he is also a necessary counterbalance against the forces which wish to destroy the world completely…

[Ynneadwraith]

2 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

one might see the seed of an interesting hill country heresy here

Interesting idea. Syncretisation of Yelmic and Orlanthi beliefs into a shared narrative where Orlanth is both murderer and saviour. Both the cause of the sun's setting each night, but also its rising with the dawn. Yelm's most loyal servant, who dared to follow his Lord's orders and slay the Relentless Sun, providing the respite of night to his baking mortal subjects.

Well that ended up a bit more Gospel of Judas rather than Set, but interesting to think about anyway!

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Interesting idea. Syncretisation of Yelmic and Orlanthi beliefs into a shared narrative where Orlanth is both murderer and saviour. Both the cause of the sun's setting each night, but also its rising with the dawn. Yelm's most loyal servant, who dared to follow his Lord's orders and slay the Relentless Sun, providing the respite of night to his baking mortal subjects.

Well that ended up a bit more Gospel of Judas rather than Set, but interesting to think about anyway!

I suspect the broken Council/Bright Empire might have taught something like this at some point.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Orlanth is both murderer and saviour.

I thought that was Orlanthi orthodoxy.

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Yelm’s most loyal servant

They have the same inside–outside relationship as Arkat and Nysalor (although which is which is never clear). One way or another, Orlanth’s blow illuminates Yelm, but as any draconic mystic will tell you, in severing the dragon’s head you are removing your own. Naturally, Gbaji (any Devil or wicked serpent, really) is the third term in this holy trinity — “One, One, the Perfect Sum” (TH). ->  or (hence ), and the central mark marring is where Orlanth’s sword struck/Yelm’s third eye. 😉

Edited March 13 by mfbrandi

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

I thought that was Orlanthi orthodoxy.

Aye, though the Yelmic bods are having none of that! The compromise the Orlanthi made in this hypothetical was acknowledging that Orlanth did it all because Yelm told him so.

No-one can make you do anything, but you can choose to do as you're told.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

One way or another, Orlanth’s blow illuminates Yelm, but as any draconic mystic will tell you, in severing the dragon’s head you are removing your own.

Ooh, I sense a Lunar illumination-through-death cult brewing as well...

[Shiningbrow]

You have just reminded me - I wanted to post a few photos.

I was in Chiang Mai (Thailand) last week, and obviously I went wandering around through wat wat wat (temple temple temple).

Here's a couple of pics ... You may recognise a certain image in the second pic - right in the middle of the mosaic.

(FTR, that's the Silver Temple, and women aren't allowed in!)

Edited March 14 by Shiningbrow

[Grivenger]

 

On 3/11/2024 at 7:24 PM, Eff said:

Lot of them. 

Some sources that are used particularly closely: Arthuriana, particularly the verse and prose romances and especially Malory. The Hebrew and Christian Bibles and source criticism of both. Norse mythology, but also the Icelandic sagas and Beowulf. Hurrian and Hittite mythology get a real workout in the Glorious Reascent and Fortunate Succession- an entire section of the Kumarbi cycle, the "Song of Silver", gets used for the Sun Dragon section in the latter. 

Greek and Roman mythology are valuable, of course, but especially look at mystery cults and both older, speculative analysis and more recent, soberer analysis. Mexican mythology has some striking parallels, especially Nahuatl and Oaxacan mythology, to later Staffordian Lunar writing. 

Then there's contemporary religions. Thelema, Theosophy, chaos magick, and a good look at pop-Zen in America in the 60s and 70s are valuable. Contemporaryish efforts at fantasy and mythology in conjunction, like Robert Graves, Michael Moorcock, maybe some Angela Carter, are worth examining too, along with comics.

Scholars that I find useful for both playfulness with Glorantha and in "following the trail" are Claude Lévi-Strauss, Georges Dumezil, Margaret Clunies Ross, Vladimir Propp, Mark S. Smith, John Day, and Neil Forsyth. If you really want to damage your life and possibly your mind, there's also Jacques Lacan and Ludwig Wittgenstein. All of these are in addition to, or supplementary towards, standard answers.

Thank you for your exhaustive reply. You mentioned many things that I wasn't familiar with. That should keep me occupied for a while 🙂

 

On 3/13/2024 at 6:11 PM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

Set does have some interesting parallels to Orlanth, particularly when understood holistically.

He was the god of the Red Land, after all— the desert, contrasted against the fertile Black Land of the Nile Delta. I wonder if Dara Happans might think of Orlanth as the God of the High Mountains. He was also the god of foreigners, that is, people who were not from the Black Land, the rich river delta, the heart of civilization.

However, while Set did dismember his brother Osiris and scatter those parts, his most important role was as Ra’s defender in the Underworld each night. The one time he did not join the honor guard, the (Chaotic) serpent Apep devoured the sun, and only Set was able to cut the sun out of Apep’s belly. While this protective role is likely assigned to Shargash in traditional Yelm-worship, one might see the seed of an interesting hill country heresy here. Yes, he is a usurper whose illegitimate attempt to seize power must be opposed, but he is also a necessary counterbalance against the forces which wish to destroy the world completely…

I always compare Orlanth to the sky-father Dyaus Piter. I'll have to read up on Egyptian mythology.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

5 hours ago, Grivenger said:

I always compare Orlanth to the sky-father Dyaus Piter. I'll have to read up on Egyptian mythology.

If you’re drawing from the Rig Veda, Dyaus Piter is closer to Umath, friend. He is more a force of nature than a personified god, and his importance largely comes from his progeny. Notably, he is the father of Indra: storm god, bearer of the vajra, king of heaven, and master of the cattle raid. There’s a reason people keep saying “yeah, Orlanth takes a lot of cues from Indra.”

I find that the central question of Egyptian mythology, broadly, is “who is to rule?” It is interested both in the role of the sacred king and the struggles for the throne. Is it moral to depose a king whose senility is inviting disaster, particularly for your own gain? Is it right to unleash a punishment that you yourself struggle to control onto disrespectful and impious subjects? Do we follow a usurper who claims he is overthrowing his brother’s illegitimate dynasty, or an unproven boy born of a dead king?

(Lhankor Mhy is enriched when you notice his parallels with Thoth, whose cleverness and skill are heroic despite never being martial or even the protagonist. And Babeester Gor drinks wine and blood and is the punishment of the gods against a world that has failed them, much like Sekhmet.)

Unrelated to the above: I have found paths to Chalana Arroy and the Lunar Way through the contemplation of Guanyin.

Edited March 16 by Tatterdemalion Fox

[Grivenger]

On 3/16/2024 at 4:50 PM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

If you’re drawing from the Rig Veda, Dyaus Piter is closer to Umath, friend. He is more a force of nature than a personified god, and his importance largely comes from his progeny. Notably, he is the father of Indra: storm god, bearer of the vajra, king of heaven, and master of the cattle raid. There’s a reason people keep saying “yeah, Orlanth takes a lot of cues from Indra.”

I find that the central question of Egyptian mythology, broadly, is “who is to rule?” It is interested both in the role of the sacred king and the struggles for the throne. Is it moral to depose a king whose senility is inviting disaster, particularly for your own gain? Is it right to unleash a punishment that you yourself struggle to control onto disrespectful and impious subjects? Do we follow a usurper who claims he is overthrowing his brother’s illegitimate dynasty, or an unproven boy born of a dead king?

(Lhankor Mhy is enriched when you notice his parallels with Thoth, whose cleverness and skill are heroic despite never being martial or even the protagonist. And Babeester Gor drinks wine and blood and is the punishment of the gods against a world that has failed them, much like Sekhmet.)

Unrelated to the above: I have found paths to Chalana Arroy and the Lunar Way through the contemplation of Guanyin.

Reading up on Indra, it does look like a better inspiration for Orlanth. I get easily lost in the different lineages. It's also why I get stuck on getting a handle on the religions of ancient Egypt and the Vedic religions, due to the timespan and shifting religious practices. It's also why I can't quite get a grasp on the variations of Gnosticism. Your detailed response does help me narrow down some avenues, which I'd like to explore. Much appreciated!