Looking for Info on Eastern Genertela

[Arkangel]

Are there any publications or information on the Eastern portion of Genertela? The names all sound Asian-influenced, and this piqued my curiosity.

Many thanks!

[jajagappa]

The Guide has all the canonical information about Kralorela and Teshnos plus Vormain and the East Isles.

For JC content, there's been a several works on the first two plus an ongoing series now set in the East Isles.

 

[Arkangel]

Wow, okay. I must've completely missed those sections. I saw the bridges in the AAA atlas and must've looked for the wrong key words. Thanks! Was there ever anything on there in classic RQ?

[Nick Brooke]

Yes. For RQ3, the Red Box (1985) contained the short-form cult of Godunya, Dragon Emperor of Kralorela, and the Orange Box (1988) detailed the lands of Teshnos and Kralorela. These were, ahem, “of their time,” presenting fairly crude Orientalist stereotypes of fantasy India and China respectively. The Prosopaedia (in the Red Box) gave us glimpses of Vormain and the East Isles.

There was some fragmentary Kralori material in earlier RuneQuest Classics (e.g. the RQ Companion), but that’s the motherlode.

[Nick Brooke]

On the Jonstown Compendium, several works are set out East: most notably the Kralori Primer, Houses of Teshnos and related works by Paul Baker, Pirates of the East Isles, and the ongoing Hero Wars in the East Isles series (now up to four volumes, starting with Korolan Islands). There’s also a detailed account of the Teshnan city of Dosakayo in Ships and Shores of Southern Genertela.

Edited June 4 by Nick Brooke

[Jason Farrell]

I recommend Paul Baker's books, the aforementioned Kralori Primer and the two Teshnos books.  The Kralori Primer is $4 and he kept adding to it, so it's something like 300 pages, not the 87 the JC listing says it is.  You almost have to buy it at that ridiculous price.  His books are a bit rough around the edges, but full of good ideas, and he "gets" Glorantha.

Edited June 4 by Jason Farrell

[Exubae]

There is also a Facebook page to support all JC stuff of Eastern content. 

Https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi57I_g1cKGAxUyV0EAHZYJCkUQFnoECCQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2F1101091623708900%2F&usg=AOvVaw1mEQNiCHfI1cSQoUQbjb2I&opi=89978449

Also put together Hsunchen of the East and The Way; the former is for animal folk of Teshnos and Kralorela, the later is a collection of martial arts and mysticism rules and notes. 

Currently reworking Kralori primer in to a players book and a sand box/setting book. 

 

 

Edited June 4 by Exubae

[Arkangel]

Very interesting. I can see some mixture of early India, China, and perhaps very, very ancient Japan in the bas reliefs. The details in the Guide are very helpful. Now that I know there's some nuggets in the Ships and Shores of Southern Genertela, I can go dig into there too.

While I find the Dragon's Pass fascinating and a great place to begin a RQG campaign, Glorantha is just so much more. There's some things here that I see mirrored in settings like Elder Scrolls, and (to some extent) Forgotten Realms. The mythology and fantasy mixed just right with this one.

As a published games author, I see so many story potentials and perhaps a place to make my mark upon it. Whether through stories or game material, the world is very rich.

[Exubae]

There is also an official Kralorela in the pipeline, but it is unfortunately  very near the bottom of the chaosium to publish list. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Arkangel said:

While I find the Dragon's Pass fascinating and a great place to begin a RQG campaign, Glorantha is just so much more.

The other piece you might find interesting is Revealed Mythologies. This Stafford Library work collected the myths known at the time on the western, southern, and eastern cultures. Not necessarily canonical, but I suspect most of the eastern myths will change little from this. (Some of it is reflected in the God Time references in the Cults of RuneQuest: Mythology book, but Revealed Mythologies has more extended content.)

[Arkangel]

I was curious about the Revealed Mysteries book. I figured the Cults series would cover that material. Now I'll have to see about getting it. 

@Jason Farrell@Exubae Good call on the Kralori Primer, and the other material. Flipping through it is very enlightening.

Just a quick mention on the topic of the Cults books, was, Mythology supposed to be the first in the series

Edited June 5 by Arkangel
Credit where credit is due

[Jason Farrell]

51 minutes ago, Arkangel said:

Just a quick mention on the topic of the Cults books, was, Mythology supposed to be the first in the series

It's kind of foundational, but keep in mind that all of that was not so long ago supposed to be released as a single three volume set: the Prosepedia, and two volumes of cults, with that mythology overview.  So "first" wasn't a pertinent concept.  When Chaosium decided to break that up into 11 releases, "Mythology" ended up being fourth.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

 ... These were, ahem, “of their time,” presenting fairly crude Orientalist stereotypes of fantasy India and China respectively ...

I remain hopeful, but honestly very suspicious, about Glorantha's Kralorela & the Orientalist impulses.
Western RPG writers keep getting it wrong, except when they get it even worse.

(n.b. I do not include Mr. Baker's Kralori Primer (or any other JC "Eastern" content) in my "wrong or worse" criticism, as I haven't (yet) read it... My RQ/Glorantha reading-list is growing much faster these days than I am reading the stack down in size ...   "But that's a good problem!" say the kids these days)

I think Greg saw the "Orientalist problem," and intentionally left Kralorela as a stub, to be finished when a reliably non-orientalist approach could be had.

I hope Chaosium puts in a *LOT* of due diligence in upholding this policy (or making it their policy, if it was less-intentional by Greg).

Edited June 5 by g33k

[theconfusingeel]

I've heard that the upcomming sky cult book might cover parts of vithelan religion, but i don't know to what extent

[theconfusingeel]

Now excuse my double comment, but I remebered something I wanted to ask and posting it in this thread seems better than making another one.

How does chaos in this part of glorantha look? I know there's something in guide that says chaos never came to Vithela(asumming that doesn't just mean the east isles), but Huan To exist exclusively there and are chaotic, plus this mentions Valkalta and Tyram as chaos god important outside of (asuming central) Genertela, and because they don't seem to be present in Pamaltela I assume they're worshiped in Vithela. I imagine there's not much about this out there but any info is appreciated.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

Now excuse my double comment, but I remebered something I wanted to ask and posting it in this thread seems better than making another one.

How does chaos in this part of glorantha look? I know there's something in guide that says chaos never came to Vithela(asumming that doesn't just mean the east isles), but Huan To exist exclusively there and are chaotic, plus this mentions Valkalta and Tyram as chaos god important outside of (asuming central) Genertela, and because they don't seem to be present in Pamaltela I assume they're worshiped in Vithela. I imagine there's not much about this out there but any info is appreciated.

Chaos is part of the array of Antigods, the cotery of not-quite-as-high entities who made their strongholds in Sortum. Far from all antigods are chaotic or have chaotic features, but some do.

Outside of the East Isles and Vormain, we have RQ stats (both 3rd edition and RQG) for the lesser antigod races of the Huan To (Kralorela, Shan Shan) and the Gorgers (in Kimos, originally from Duravan just east of Pamaltela). Some of the antics of the Black Sun in Ignorance might be chaotic in addition to being Underworld-related.

 

Sortum is a demonic place, a gateway to an underworld. The Andins seem to have such in their islands, too. These places probably will have their measure of Chaos among the Underworld denizens, but that can be said about the Castles of Lead, too, if they harbor Cave Trolls (or Sea Trolls beneath the Shadow Plateau).

The places of the Dead in Esrolia or Peloria aren't exactly certified Chaos-free, either. The Blackmaw in Nochet leads to the realms of Nontraya, who may be identical to Vivamort. Alkoth links to the Underworld realm of Shadzor, with its Shadzoring demons roaming and devastating the environments of Alkoth aka Hellgate throughout the Greater Darkness and into the Dawn Age.

What comes from Drospoly and Varchulanga may not be certified non-chaotic, either. Wherever you dig deep enough, you might catch some Chaos by proximity.

 

The East has a history of redeeming antigods. The noble Adpara, Herespur, Kahar (the Storm god who became civilized for his love, and unlike Oorsu Sara did not betray his learnings), or Harantara's noble brother Sarono, the Duke of the Deep - a descendant of Togaro or Sshorg. Govemeranen, the child of Dogsalu the Terror Dragon even became the Emperor of Vith's land.

(But then, Lugh Lamfada is a grandson of Balor of the Fomorians in Irish myth. Not much of a difference there.)

 

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, theconfusingeel said:

How does chaos in this part of glorantha look?

Chaos looks pretty much the same as it does elsewhere.  The Eastern Isles were better at keeping it out but suffered because they followed the Illusion Avanapdur in doing so rather than the truths of the High Gods.  There is some chaos in the Eastern Isles - a giant Walktapus at Nan-matal is mentioned in the Guide p489 while Vampires and diseases are mentioned in Revealed Mythologies.  However the Islanders classify Chaos as another - particular nasty - manifestation of the Antigods but as opposed to an Evil in their own right.  In this they are similar to the Dara Happans who view Chaos as a facet of the Rebel Gods who almost destroyed the World with their rebellion.

 

[jajagappa]

23 hours ago, Arkangel said:

I figured the Cults series would cover that material.

As some of the solar cults are important in the east, there may be references to some myths included. But, Revealed Mythology frames the God Time & Gods War from the eastern perspective and I don't expect to see that in the solar book (and aside from the God Time map references I noted before, they are not covered in the Mythology book).

[Arkangel]

One thing you can tell what was really thought out here was the concepts of good vs evil. There is the Gods and Chaos. Some aren't as neatly defined and have many aspects. And this give their mythology a more legitimate feel, IMHO.

[davecake]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:20 PM, theconfusingeel said:

How does chaos in this part of glorantha look? I know there's something in guide that says chaos never came to Vithela(asumming that doesn't just mean the east isles),

Just as the ancient Solar texts don’t really talk about Chaos much, because they sort of care more about Darkness and Storm barbarians and immorality and just see the Chaos monsters more as a consequence of the loss of the Emperor rather than the root cause, so the East Isles treat Chaos as just one type of antigod, and potentially not even the worst kind (Avanapdur, a great Illusion antigod, is there great Darkness big bad). But there clearly are many beings that seem very Chaotic present. It is also important to understand that a lot of East Isles myth is intended somewhat metaphorically. 

[Goldennose]

The Hero Wars in the East Isles books are set in the close areas around the Korolan Islands. Those are circled in this map.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:27 AM, g33k said:

I think Greg saw the "Orientalist problem," and intentionally left Kralorela as a stub, to be finished when a reliably non-orientalist approach could be had.

I hope Chaosium puts in a *LOT* of due diligence in upholding this policy (or making it their policy, if it was less-intentional by Greg).

While I agree with this to a large degree (we've discussed this before, and it can be a touchy subject for some), I also think a less obvious aspect is that Kralorela and the wider east suffer a bit from not being as, well, WEIRD as Central Genertela. One of the things I love about Central Genertela is how the writers spent a long time stewing influences and imagery and themes from widely different cultures together and dyncretized them using analogous points (for example, the hero-culture of Sartar has touches of Classicla Greece, Iron Age Celts and Germanics, Dark Age Anglo-Saxons, Vedic Indians and more, ditto for their clan structures, their settlements, their hospitality traditions and so on), and while few of the other regions ever quite get AS well-cooked as Dragon Pass, I think Kralorela especially suffers because it's so very obviously "fantasy ancient china". I don't want to denigrate the work put in there, there's a lot of threads to pull on, and obviously "ancient China" is a MASSIVE field in both time and geography to select from, but imho it needs to be more syncretized and organically develop more of its own distinct quirks that surprise and delight readers. (The undead work gangs is a good example of quirks already present in the book.)

I hope when the time comes, they manage to pull that off spectacularly.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

... (for example, the hero-culture of Sartar has touches of Classicla Greece, Iron Age Celts and Germanics, Dark Age Anglo-Saxons, Vedic Indians and more, ditto for their clan structures, their settlements, their hospitality traditions and so on), and while few of the other regions ever quite get AS well-cooked as Dragon Pass ...

Prax, I think.

In addition to the obvious Mongol X Plains-Native tropes, I see more than a little bit of Bedouin, the bit with Peruvian quipu, some Aussie-Aboriginal elements, cattle-raiding seems very ancient-Vedic, etc.

But, uh... it' not exactly "news" that Prax & Sartar have gotten more support than other regions.  😉

 

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

... I think Kralorela especially suffers because it's so very obviously "fantasy ancient china". I don't want to denigrate the work put in there, there's a lot of threads to pull on, and obviously "ancient China" is a MASSIVE field in both time and geography to select from, but ...

💯THIS!!!
"but..." indeed.
It's something white/western gamerdudes keep getting wrong.

 

10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

... but imho it needs to be more syncretized and organically develop more of its own distinct quirks that surprise and delight readers. (The undead work gangs is a good example of quirks already present in the book.)

Again:  THIS!
I hope they pull much more broadly, and include swaths of other cultures & civilizations.

 

16 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

...
I hope when the time comes, they manage to pull that off spectacularly.

You and me both!

I'll say this:  I remain optimistic!  The post-2015 Chaosium crew has an amazing track record of producing quality RPG supplements.  (OTOH, they have AFAIK yet to tackle anything quite this potentially-problematic).

[Goldennose]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:30 PM, Arkangel said:

Are there any publications or information on the Eastern portion of Genertela? The names all sound Asian-influenced, and this piqued my curiosity.

Many thanks!

Here are what the Hero Wars in the East Isles series have so far. Here are all the content pages from all four volumes. Volume 4 contents are on two pages.