Double cult initiation question

[Malin]

An interesting question came up, and I am not sure if this has been dealt with in the rules or QnA, so I am asking people here if they have seen any official mention?

A character is initiated in two runecults. One gives access to a VERY limited amount of general rune spells (let's say extension and multispell), while the other cult gives access to the full spectrum of general rune spells.

So, the character has access to Sanctify through one cult. Can they use Sanctify to sanctify the ground and then perform ceremonies for the other cult they are initiated into?

Has this been touched on, or is it a case of MGF and YGMV?

[Jon Hunter]

I have no offical guidance, but i would say the sanctify spell is specific to the cult that gives the spell.  That seems logical to me.

[Jens]

24 minutes ago, Malin said:

Can they use Sanctify to sanctify the ground and then perform ceremonies for the other cult they are initiated into?

According to RAW no, unless the second cult is an Associated Cult of the first one; common rune spells are granted by, and specific to, the cult they come from, so a Sanctified holy area for one cult would not work for another.
 

Of course, you’re free to change this to fit your Glorantha and maximize game fun. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

Quote

as if it were a temple

is key

a temple is one god "property", those who provides the sanctify spell.

But as @Jens notes : a temple provides opportunities for associated cults so the spell does the same, as if it were a temple

[Scotty]

Answered in the Q&A: 

 

 

[Malin]

Thank you, that's what I figured! The person that asked will be disappointed, but that's life. Just wanted to check to make sure.

[Akhôrahil]

It’s the same idea with sacred ground in general - it’s sacred to a cult or deity, not just all-around sacred.

If you want to be nice to the player (and it fits), the “Site” level of sacred ground might be found about (although for a lesser cult, this would reasonably be less common as well - the Spirit of the Great Split Rock can probably only be worshiped at that place and nowhere else.)

Edited June 15 by Akhôrahil

[radmonger]

Are there actually any cults that don't have access to Sanctify, and also don't have any associated cults that have such access?

 

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Are there actually any cults that don't have access to Sanctify

Yes, examples to date include: Eurmal, Lanbril, High King Elf (though Shamans and Elder Sister of Aldrya do), Bloody Tusk, Crimson Bat, Red Goddess, Red Emperor, and Teelo Norri.

[radmonger]

Eurmal is associated with Orlanth, High King Elf with Chalana Arroy, The Bat and the other Lunar deities with Seven Mothers, 

Which leaves Lanbril and Bloody Tusk. 

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, radmonger said:

Are there actually any cults that don't have access to Sanctify

While @jajagappa's answer might be RAW, I'd change that. It seems silly to not be able to call upon your own deity.

Unless, of course, someone can provide a good logical reason behind why Sanctify doesn't do what one would think it does (help to make an area more habitable for the deity in question). Because, ultimately, it would mean that those cults without it sort of can't make a temple (or, dare I suggest, even a shrine... or any 'holy' place). IMG, such holy sites are where you get your Rune Spells (and Rune Points) from, and you need such a holy, sanctified space in order to get them.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

59 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

While @jajagappa's answer might be RAW, I'd change that. It seems silly to not be able to call upon your own deity.

We find the cult limitations on Common Rune Spells arbitrary, complex, and incomprehensible, and generally ignore them.  I mean, if Orgovale Summer, a cult with literally 0 - 1 worshippers, offers all common rune magic, so should all other cults.

[Shiningbrow]

13 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We find the cult limitations on Common Rune Spells arbitrary, complex, and incomprehensible, and generally ignore them.  I mean, if Orgovale Summer, a cult with literally 0 - 1 worshippers, offers all common rune magic, so should all other cults.

Although... I can find a justification for that one (Orgovale Summer) - It's what she's got access to and knows, not actually about the number of worshippers.

[radmonger]

17 hours ago, radmonger said:

Which leaves Lanbril and Bloody Tusk. 

Bloody Tusk makes a certain amount of sense, as it clearly 'supposed' to be mythically associated with other Earth Cults, but those ties have been cut. And it has one really big temple and no need to create any more, or ability to defend them if it did. You start at the Ivory Plinth, you go out to raid, and then you return.

As a plot hook, it does seem plausible if a group of tuskers took over a small Earth temple, they could successfully worship there. Cults being written up as associated seems to mean 'are currently pragmatically associated', not 'theoretically could be, if things were different'. Hence how different subcults sometimes have different associated cults.

Lanbril, I got nothing; realistically the cult needs a rework to be something other than 'an excuse to play a D&D thief in Glorantha'.  An Orlanthi cult of uninitiated refugees and street kids who steal to survive, an urban Gagarth could work.

 

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

Lack of Sanctify makes sense to me when the cult is particularly tied to a location. Bloody Tusk, Crimson Bat, many spirit cults… you’re not supposed to be able to worship them anywhere.

[David Scott]

23 hours ago, radmonger said:

Are there actually any cults that don't have access to Sanctify,

See Rune Magic by Cult and Associate Cult, Some Common. 

23 hours ago, radmonger said:

and also don't have any associated cults that have such access?

Associate cults don't usually share Common Rune magic, usually just some skills, spirit magic and a special Rune spell.

[Akhôrahil]

52 minutes ago, David Scott said:

See Rune Magic by Cult and Associate Cult, Some Common. 

Associate cults don't usually share Common Rune magic, usually just some skills, spirit magic and a special Rune spell.

I think the idea is that you can regain your rune points away from the temple by using Associated Cult Worship.

[Memestream]

On 6/16/2024 at 4:40 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Unless, of course, someone can provide a good logical reason behind why Sanctify doesn't do what one would think it does (help to make an area more habitable for the deity in question). Because, ultimately, it would mean that those cults without it sort of can't make a temple (or, dare I suggest, even a shrine... or any 'holy' place). IMG, such holy sites are where you get your Rune Spells (and Rune Points) from, and you need such a holy, sanctified space in order to get them.

Maybe it's simply not packed into the convenient package of a rune spell? Perhaps sacred places for these deities without the sanctify spell come about through different means?

I mean just spitballing here, but in the case of Lanbril(who I admittedly don't really find a lot of use for IMG), I could see a space becoming sacred through regular instrumental purpose. I mean if there's a secret spot where thieves regularly meet, hide, plan, and divvy their ill-gotten gains, is it not a den of thieves?

I could see the same thing for Eurmali(who can worship through associated temples anyway, but still), maybe 'naturally' disordered places which are liminal in relation to society tend to naturally become "temples" of Eurmal? I mean that certainly fits with his myth, what with him being driven to the edges of reality where order wasn't so orderly.

Red Goddess has weird saintly intercessors, but maybe in order to worship the Bat you gotta actually get close to it? Also, surely the whole of the Red Moon is sacred to TRG, right?

[PhilHibbs]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:25 PM, Memestream said:

Maybe it's simply not packed into the convenient package of a rune spell? Perhaps sacred places for these deities without the sanctify spell come about through different means?

Yes this, just because there isn't a rune spell for it doesn't mean it's impossible. There's no rune spell for teaching spirit magic (which there was past editions), it's just something that rune masters can do.