Sorcery and Allied Spirits

[Jens]

Now that The Lunar Way has delivered a host of Rune levels that can learn Sorcery and have Allied Spirits, it raises the question- can Allied Spirits cast or memorize sorcery? In particular:

1. Can an Allied Spirit learn and/or cast Sorcery spells?
2. If they can cast sorcery,  is it like spirit or rune magic where they can cast any spell their Rune master knows, or would they need to learn each spell independently, and have a their own percentage chance to cast it?
3. Would they share runes and techniques, or need to learn/sacrifice POW on their own?
4. Most importantly, whether or not they can cast sorcery, can their INT be used to memorize sorcery spells, freeing up the INT of their Rune master?

It may help that those same Allied Spirits likely come from cults that teach Sorcery- Lhankor May, Irrippi Ontor, etc., and could have learned sorcery while alive if they are spirits of cult members.

Edited June 13 by Jens

[Squaredeal Sten]

Or to rephrase the question, can spirits do magic that is not spirit magic?  The answer is unquestionably yes because there are canon examples of spirits with Rune magic.

However spirits seem to learn much more slowly than the living. Shown by their more demanding POW increase rolls.

So IMHO the sorcerous spirit should not be able to create new sorcery spells. only to use those it created when alive.  Which the GM will define.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

However spirits seem to learn much more slowly than the living. Shown by their more demanding POW increase rolls.

Digressing a little, but I'm not sure that they inherently learn more slowly. I'd allow an allied spirit the same skill increase rolls as the adventurer, although they are less likely to get such rolls if they're in an inanimate object. A snake familiar that hides should get a tick on their hide skill like anyone else.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So IMHO the sorcerous spirit should not be able to create new sorcery spells. only to use those it created when alive.  Which the GM will define.

Hm. I do believe that spirits have a limited ability to change and to change the world... so maybe that undermines my point earlier about skill checks. Maybe they should be more or less stuck with the skills that they start with, or have a different method of skill improvement/acquisition.

[radmonger]

IMG, this is impossible as a default. It breaks my view of the magical economy of sorcery-using societies to have an unlimited source of arbitrarily-skilled sorcerers on tap. And being able to routinely demonstrate how Bob the Brithini is still around doing magic 300 years after his energies should have dissipated doesn't seem like the kind of thing sorcerers could be unaware of.

So IMG allied spirits lack the abstract reasoning portion of the Gloranthan soul. Like certain kinds of AI, you can ask them what they know, or hold a conversation with them But you can't hand them a novel problem and ask 'what is the solution?'.

As a result, they can't compose music, solve puzzles, or do sorcery. A cult can channel worship to them and keep them around indefinitely, but that's not going to chnage their nature.

if a PC came into possession of an exception to that default, then it would be a major McGuffin that all kinds of magical factions would develop an intense interest in. Perhaps for a level of 'intense interest' that last manifested around the place now called the Machine Ruins.

 

[Jens]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

However spirits seem to learn much more slowly than the living. Shown by their more demanding POW increase rolls.

Allied spirits have more awareness and agency than other spirits, as well as a standard POW increase roll. From the Well:
"Embodied spirits like Allied spirits in animals, can improve skills by experience where appropriate and have a normal POW gain chance if they receive a POW check through normal means." and "Allied spirits and fetches (spirits with you of their own free will) [can cast/boost their spells from crystals], but not the others (bound spirits)."

When you combine this with the standard capabilities of Allied Spirits it suggests there's at least a chance- "They can use each other’s magical abilities, including spell knowledge, magic points, and Rune points. The priest can see through the ally’s senses (and vice versa). A priest can cast spells through the ally (and vice versa) at any distance." Sorcery could definitely fall under both the magical ability and spell knowledge categories.

Of course sorcerers with allied spirits are obnoxious enough already, given their ability to memorize and cast spirit magic without reducing the sorcerer's Free INT, so your Glorantha can certainly exclude additional munchkinry. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

From my perspective I would consider any spirit (even allied spirit) with the same "problem" that gods have. In fact I would consider any "entity" who is not "mundane native" (aka born and not yet dead in the mundane world) as "frozen" : they cannot do new things. They may improve themselves (learn more about a domain they know; get experience check on skill they already have)

So an allied spirit may be previously a mundane native but now dead, they cannot do new thing

An allied spirit may have been an initiate so they have rune spells and can cast this spells "now" I would say that they can "learn" how to ask their god to cast a new one because the pattern they follow is the pattern of obtaining blessing from their god.

So an allied spirit maybe previously a mundane sorcerer. In that way, they can understand sorcery, they can cast sorcery spells they had learn before. Are they now, as spirit, able to learn new spells ? probably if these spells needs rune understanding they already master. Could they learn new runes or technics ? Imo yes but they would need much much much more time than a mundane sorcerer.

But if the allied spirit was from the mundane world bu never get any notion of sorcery, I would consider them impossible to learn sorcery.

 

 

 

[Jens]

Just realized one other balancing factor- Free INT for the Allied Spirit will be reduced by any spirit spells it knows. So let's say it has 15 INT and 12 CHA, a full complement of spirit spells would leave only 3 points of INT to memorize or cast Sorcery spells.

[PhilHibbs]

Maybe there's a middle ground between "spirits are stuck and unable to change themselves" and "allied spirits can learn just like anyone else and become super awesome over the centuries".

Maybe when an allied spirit is embodied in a physical item or creature, it's like being reincarnated. You don't get to keep the skills of your past self. You start again as a blank slate, maybe taking on the physical skills of the creature that awakened as the-new-you so you're not an incompetent newborn in an adult body.

Sorcery? That's a tricky one, as you'd need to start from scratch. I'd steer clear of an overly literal interpretation of that last paragraph - you start off with initiate-level skills and can progress from there, potentially including some basic functional sorcery abilities. But you don't get to keep a thousand years of accumulated skills - becoming physically embodied acts as a reset on that.

[metcalph]

Possible solution: when spirits achieve henosis with the Invisible God (part and parcel of learning sorcery), they can't return due to the lack of having any body to return to.  They can still use a priest's sorcery.

[Shiningbrow]

My 2 clacks' worth

If the Allied Spirit comes from a cult that has sorcery as a mainstay (e.g., Lhankor Mhy, Irrippi Ontor), then yes, the sprit can (and probably should) have sorcery. They should be able to learn new Runes & Techniques, and obviously have spell knowledge that can improve, and even learn new spells as appropriate.

However, they can't hold spells which they haven't learned, and for spells they have learned, the Rune level shouldn't have automatic access to those spells (or Techniques or Runes). If, however, the RL has learned the spell, then they can remove it from their memory (Freeing up the INT), and just take the AS' memory of it (not unlike an inscription).

They can't cast any spells the RL knows, unless they've already learned the spell - in which case, they cast it at their own skill level, not merely the higher of theirs or the RL's.

Obviously, I would not allow the 'sharing' of Runes and Techniques - they are two separate entities, and the 'learning' (as demonstrated by the sacrifice of POW), requires having that 'learning' be something very deep, at a soul level, and not merely intellectual. (if, however, there was a version of sorcery that didn't require such a sacrifice of POW, it would be a different matter).

BUT... either could teach either Runes/Techniques or spells to the other. (we need a (better?) mechanism for this to be included in the RAW.) Given the closeness of the relationship, I would think this may be faster/more efficient than what is currently assumed (but then, we no longer have the Apprentice Bonding Ritual...)

IF the AS is from a cult that simply permits sorcery, then things would be rather different ... well, actually, not. It would simply be the case that the AS has never learned any sorcery, and so would be starting from scratch (and, by that, I mean would take years to learn the basics, sufficient to be able to even start to sacrifice for a Rune or Technique...). Given that an Inscription requires the sacrifice of POW by the sorcerer, then there's no way said sorcerer can simply 'move' spell knowledge to an AS to Free up the Int - as above.

[David Scott]

Sorcery is a literate discipline, and a sorcerer cannot know a spell better than their Read/Write skill. (RQG 388) Given that LM put their allied spirits in writing instruments (so no eyes or limbs) and IO into bats, I suspect that even if sorcery using allied spirits were possible they would be very rare.

[Shiningbrow]

40 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Sorcery is a literate discipline, and a sorcerer cannot know a spell better than their Read/Write skill. (RQG 388) Given that LM put their allied spirits in writing instruments (so no eyes or limbs) and IO into bats, I suspect that even if sorcery using allied spirits were possible they would be very rare.

But this (the binding into an object) is not related to what the spirit has learned before they were bound. Just as if I lost my arms in an accident, I'd still be able to Read the languages that I can. (this presumes, of course, that said spirits have been incarnated previously.. or had access to those skills in some way).

And, the chart of Allied Spirit binding is "Typical Host" - meaning that other options are available.

And, isn't there a way for a bound spirit to come out of it's binding (a Control spell?)? Or able to use the senses of the RL (yes... " The priest can see through the ally’s senses (and vice versa). A priest can cast spells through the ally (and vice versa) at any distance." P277)

So, I'm suggesting that while such sorcery casting spirits may be rare overall, in sorcerous cults, not as rare as you may be suggesting.

 

[David Scott]

52 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But this (the binding into an object) is not related to what the spirit has learned before they were bound. Just as if I lost my arms in an accident, I'd still be able to Read the languages that I can. (this presumes, of course, that said spirits have been incarnated previously.. or had access to those skills in some way).

An allied spirit is not a bound spirit. Rune levels must persuade the spirit to ally.

52 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, the chart of Allied Spirit binding is "Typical Host" - meaning that other options are available.

Sure. The cults books are more specific, but if your Rune level wants something different thats fine. 

52 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, isn't there a way for a bound spirit to come out of it's binding (a Control spell?)?

Not bound, see above. IIRC there's only one cult where the allied spirit is actually a discorporate spirit.

52 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or able to use the senses of the RL (yes... " The priest can see through the ally’s senses (and vice versa). A priest can cast spells through the ally (and vice versa) at any distance." P277)

So, I'm suggesting that while such sorcery casting spirits may be rare overall, in sorcerous cults, not as rare as you may be suggesting.

I'm not saying you can't have them in your game. In my games they don't exist.

You can always ask in the Q&A, although I suspect I know what the answer will be.

[Shiningbrow]

37 minutes ago, David Scott said:

An allied spirit is not a bound spirit.

Sorry, I'm using the term to refer to the way the spirit is in an object... I presume there's something more than just 'I decide to sleep in this object'.

[David Scott]

40 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sorry, I'm using the term to refer to the way the spirit is in an object... I presume there's something more than just 'I decide to sleep in this object'.

Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects. RQG 277

They can discorporate if they have access to the Discorporate spell.

[Shiningbrow]

58 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects. RQG 277

So, you're saying that the AS isn't bound to the animal or object???

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're saying that the AS isn't bound to the animal or object???

It says they inhabit it. You persuade them to be your allied spirit. I'm just saying what the book says. The Q&A says the same (5.5.9 How do you bind an Allied spirit?)

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're saying that the AS isn't bound to the animal or object???

What I have always understood :

 

the allied "spirit" IS the animal or object. You kill the animal, you "kill" the allied spirit. You destroy the object, you "kill" the allied spirit

the bound spirit is imprisoned in the animal or object. You kill the animal, you free the bound spirit. You destroy the object, you free the bound spirit.

 

I think the only common point (and not so sure that's the same process/spell) is theway to "free" the animal or the object from an allied spirit / bound spirit.

Maybe a shaman can engage the spirit and, carrefuly, mp after mp, distinguish the spirit from its receptacle

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the allied "spirit" IS the animal or object. You kill the animal, you "kill" the allied spirit. You destroy the object, you "kill" the allied spirit

So, theoretically, by this interpretation (and you sort of hint at it), if the AS has its POWer reduced to zero (thereby killing it), the object it's in will cease to function - the sword breaks apart, the pen shatters, etc etc... You 'kill' the animal that was hosting it - but then, if the AS has taken over the animal's body, it normally means a possession, or a spirit combat with the winner getting the body as the reward. (and, what happens to the original owner spirit??)

This is why I'm having a problem with the idea...

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

but then, if the AS has taken over the animal's body, it normally means a possession, or a spirit combat with the winner getting the body as the reward. (and, what happens to the original owner spirit??)

 

I've always assumed that as Allied spirits are limited in number, the animals that house them are specially bred for that purpose in a temple environment (otherwise where do the bats, doves, hawks, etc come from), and their spirit returns to be one of cult's spirits that can be summoned (per Cult Spirits) Alternatively, it could be seen that the persuasion of the spirit is just the animal awakening as an allied spirit. Either maybe true in my games.

If you want your Rune priest's investment ceremony to have an allied spirit vs. animal spirit possession contest, then go for it.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, theoretically, by this interpretation (and you sort of hint at it), if the AS has its POWer reduced to zero (thereby killing it), the object it's in will cease to function - the sword breaks apart, the pen shatters, etc etc... You 'kill' the animal that was hosting it - but then, if the AS has taken over the animal's body, it normally means a possession, or a spirit combat with the winner getting the body as the reward. (and, what happens to the original owner spirit??)

still my view (I have no canonic reference) but with all cases :

 

- if you destroy/kill the object/animal, the allied spirit is lost (aka go back to spirit world or deads world, but I think it is just a question of step)

- if you destroy the allied spirit (spirit combat, and others) in an object, the object is still there, and the object doesn't need a spirit to work (except of course something like golem and other automates) A sword is a sword.

- if you destroy/drive out the allied spirit in a beast, I imagine the shock so important that the original beast spirit (before the possession, @David Scott's has another interesting version) has not the time to take the control of the body. Then, the beast's body, without any spirit to lead it, die.

- that's why I imagine a shaman is able to drive out the allied spirit in a "soft" way (for the original beast spirit + body at least) something that let the original spirit take the control gradually. So it may save the beast.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is why I'm having a problem with the idea...

I get it, I sometimes struggle with these things. I'm a programmer, I have to train myself not to think that way.

Mundane objects are already dead. Their spirit is gone, or dormant, that's why gold falls to the ground. Awaken gold, and it dances around, light as a feather, and floats up towards the sky if it fancies. Kill it, and it falls to the ground again, heavy, trying to follow Yelm to the underworld.

[Darius West]

On 6/13/2024 at 1:26 PM, Jens said:

Now that The Lunar Way has delivered a host of Rune levels that can learn Sorcery and have Allied Spirits, it raises the question- can Allied Spirits cast or memorize sorcery? In particular:

1. Can an Allied Spirit learn and/or cast Sorcery spells?
2. If they can cast sorcery,  is it like spirit or rune magic where they can cast any spell their Rune master knows, or would they need to learn each spell independently, and have a their own percentage chance to cast it?
3. Would they share runes and techniques, or need to learn/sacrifice POW on their own?
4. Most importantly, whether or not they can cast sorcery, can their INT be used to memorize sorcery spells, freeing up the INT of their Rune master?

It may help that those same Allied Spirits likely come from cults that teach Sorcery- Lhankor May, Irrippi Ontor, etc., and could have learned sorcery while alive if they are spirits of cult members.

In my opinion:

1.  Only if the deity in question accepts the use of sorcery.

2.  Because of the mind link effect between an allied spirit and their patron, they can borrow their patron's runes.

3.  It is optional.  They don't have to, but they can.

4.  Yes.

[Godlearner]

On 6/12/2024 at 11:26 PM, Jens said:

• Can an Allied Spirit learn and/or cast Sorcery spells?
• If they can cast sorcery,  is it like spirit or rune magic where they can cast any spell their Rune master knows, or would they need to learn each spell independently, and have a their own percentage chance to cast it?
• Would they share runes and techniques, or need to learn/sacrifice POW on their own?
• Most importantly, whether or not they can cast sorcery, can their INT be used to memorize sorcery spells, freeing up the INT of their Rune master?

IMO, they can not cast sorcery, but: They expand the number of spells the priest can learn by adding their CHA and they may add their INT to determine how much manipulation can be done. This is most like the case for Malkioni. 

[davecake]

While I don't want to get back to the old Essences vs Spirits days, I do generally feel that most spirits (or other beings) are unable to cast sorcery while disembodied. So a sorcerer ghost needs to possess someone to cast sorcery.