Dwarvish Mass Transit

[Erol of Backford]

Yes, this isn't something normal Gloranthinas would think about and likely it belongs in the Your Dumbest Theory thread but in case there are some ideas to add to it:

Previously questioning how the 10,000 dwarves appeared out of thin air to attack the Clanking Ruins and Dwarf Knoll having mining tunnels or even massive caverns with iron constructs 100's of feet high (thank you Mr. Scoot) I was thinking there is surely a Gloranthian Dwarvish Mass Transit System.

With this thread I hope to play on Jaja's, Sorala of Nochet's studies and Dathan Denethsson's interview with Isidilian (from RQA 05 by Mr. Rowe) to grow a hypothetical dwarf subway system, develop encounters and create scenarios associated as sometimes dwarves need assistance due to say an infestation of krarshikid in a tunnel or possibly some trolls broken in somewhere? A lost tunnel in the Haunted Ruins is uncovered and leads to a tunnel or shaft to a deep tunnel... Maybe there is a dispute between 2 dwarven settlements and the PC's are sent to investigate an issue in the tunnel linking them so neither side is seen as the aggressor?

The major transit hubs would be under the larger settlements IMHO. In Genertela they'd have runs connecting, the Brass Mts., Nida, Jord, Imther, Gemborg, Iron Mts., Diamond Mts. and of course, Dwarf Mine. There would also be side spurs to or connecting runs from Pavis and the Haunted Ruins. I am guessing they'd be in operation still unless there were collapses due to earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc. or intrusions by hostile forces. If not maybe the dwarves will send out "Special Repair Missions"?

The greatest number of converging lines must have been at "Mostal’s Palace. This is the great stronghold of the Mostali and is under constant construction and expansion. Within is Mostal’s workshop and his furnace where the metals are made." Where is it if Mostal's Palace exists physically on Glorantha?

Any runs would have "passing siding" or a "passing loop" for trains going in the opposite direction or maybe if an express tram were headed in the same direction. Guessing the dwarf system in very remote areas would be only large enough for a single tram?

It's likely that any entry point not at a dwarvish complex would have some sort of warded or guarded subterranean barbican. The old zine, Shadows of pavis had some detail on the areas beneath Dwarf Knoll. Who knows maybe many of these "hubs" have portals to actually meet Mostal?

Wondering as to other's thoughts on how deep below the surface these tunnels would be. Guessing several hundred feet, maybe just about at sea level. If so and they were under the mountain ranges mostly they'd have much less a chance to have invaders discover them. Who'd wish to tunnel 100's of feet below grade to get to an empty tunnel?

I'll also assume the origin of the coordinate grid dwarfs use would be set at the center of Magasta's Pool? It may have been under the Spike but IIRC its location was one and the same? Can't recall. Would transit hubs be labeled XZ437, YQ232, ZE124 or something like that or would the coordinates also have time and planar space dimensions added?

Possibly the dwarf trams are submersible or do they run in "fish roads" as some sort of deal has been brokered between Mostal and Magasta? Lastly do the trams look like Leonardo's Travelpede but on wheels in lieu of legs? Maybe the nearest coastal town to Leonardo's workshop that the Travelpede runs between is linked to the dwarven tram system?

I wonder if there are any links near, say, the Footprint or the Hollow and if there are incursions by chaos near them?

There must be a line running to or through the Pavis under ground as it heads east... are there not some chaos dwarves in the Tunnel Hills? Seems like there are many ideas for dealing with dwarfs and their tram system?

Positive and constructive thoughts that add to the idea appreciated and YGWV for sure.

 

    

[KeithN]

could you create a London Underground style maps of the dwarf settlements? 

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The greatest number of converging lines must have been at "Mostal’s Palace. This is the great stronghold of the Mostali and is under constant construction and expansion. Within is Mostal’s workshop and his furnace where the metals are made." Where is it if Mostal's Palace exists physically on Glorantha?

I think it's basically destroyed when the Spike exploded.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wondering as to other's thoughts on how deep below the surface these tunnels would be. Guessing several hundred feet, maybe just about at sea level. If so and they were under the mountain ranges mostly they'd have much less a chance to have invaders discover them. Who'd wish to tunnel 100's of feet below grade to get to an empty tunnel?

 

They either have to be above the water table or use submersible trains.

 

[metcalph]

If the Mostali have an Underground, I think they would be literally under the Earth.  The trains would run on rickety tracks that are hanging down from the Earth where it meets the Underworld.  Beneath them is a vast dark expanse through which some planets can be dimly seen.

[svensson]

So are we looking for ruined transit stations buried under thousands of years of rubble, a'la Tekumel?

Previous editions have described Mostali habitations as being close by their work stations, 'close' meaning 'just on the other side of that door'. Presuming that is the case in RQG, and I haven't seen any description otherwise, most Clay Mostali don't need to travel far at all. Not even their products need to travel far, inasmuch 99% of dwarf products are used by the dwarfs themselves. The simple fact that, barring heresy, Mostali have very little need or desire to interact with the rest of Glorantha. Trade is simply the least of their concerns.

[svensson]

And, because I simply can't help it, there's this.... though I do mean it tongue in cheek, there's definitely a certain je nais se quas

From 'Metropolis' [Fritz Lang 1927]

Edited Tuesday at 07:52 AM by svensson

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Positive and constructive thoughts that add to the idea appreciated and YGWV for sure.

• Chaos dwarf mass transit is as simple as it is terrifying:
  punch a hole into the Void at one end of the tunnel
  — after all, you can do this anywhere —
  and anything at the other end will accelerate toward it.
   
• If you don’t close the breach and lack a robust “catcher”° at the destination,
  you lose a trainful of CDs — but at least they die happy: whoosh!
   
• Nonchaotic dwarfs are aware of the technology.
  Are they prepared to use it?
  Some things clay was meant not to know.
  But it knows.

 

——————————————————————
° Some say a net woven from Her silk. Others that nothing of Hers can be trusted to keep Cosmos and Chaos apart. Chaos dwarfs just shrug … and smile.

Edited Tuesday at 11:18 AM by mfbrandi
footnote

[Joerg]

As an alternative to rails, think chains of buckets transporting whatever needs transporting, possibly changing directions as required.

[Erol of Backford]

17 hours ago, KeithN said:

London Underground style maps of the dwarf settlements

That is the plan eventually but for now it'd be Dwarf Run over to Pavis via the Haunted Ruins, down to Clanking Ruins. The trick will be to figure out how dwarves would plan their system, lay the track, would it be hordes of nimerlings helping actual dwarves or would it be mostly dwarf crews with a few iron dwarf guards with some Jolanti.

16 hours ago, John Biles said:

think it's basically destroyed when the Spike exploded.

Exactly.

It invites so many ideas for scenarios. Any lines that remained afterward are hanging into the maelstrom of Magasta’s Pool or do some of them run to Iron City which juts sideways out of the wall of Magasta’s Pool and or Nowhere Land, a bleak and desolate place which sits deep within the maelstrom of Magasta’s Pool... Maybe Iron City was the main dwarven transit hub before the Spike exploded and is what remains?

The Great Tram Robbery, The Temple of Dwarvish Doom, anything related to tunnels, mines and or mountain caves would fit in well.

15 hours ago, svensson said:

The simple fact that, barring heresy, Mostali have very little need or desire to interact with the rest of Glorantha. Trade is simply the least of their concerns.

But when dwarves were on the council they'd have taken the tram to any meeting? Also how did those 10,000 dwarves suddenly appear. It reminds me of the Confederate Army in the ACW being transported all over the South via rail, arriving just in time to help turn the tide? I would guess dwarves are always able to produce more than they need, efficient that they are. Would they produce more than they need, of course they would because they know the Hero Wars are coming? That aside, they could transport goods and materials, dwarf-power between locations as needed to assist with bigger projects or to stockpile those tin cans of paste (Do dwarves like curry?) rather than waiting for more dwarves to be manufactured or going hungry because food production was disabled due to some raid at some obscure location?

15 hours ago, svensson said:

From 'Metropolis' [Fritz Lang 1927]

 

It's perfect. Dwarves moving via the subterranean tram system to remote work locations... I love it. As ore is mined out they need to send miners to obtain and ship it. Recall the dwarves have been mining in the same locations for 100's of years... the tunnels get longer and or deeper?

Maybe there are Balrogs under the sidewalk, below the earth!? There could also be a corridor, somewhere deep in the tramway, to Mostal's Hall?

   

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Chaos dwarf mass transit is as simple as it is terrifying:
punch a hole into the Void at one end of the tunnel

The Tunneled Hills would be perfect for this sort of thing. The underground tramway was blasted purposely in certain places to keep chaos or maybe trolls out? I supposes dwarves may have decided they could rebuild a tunnel at their leisure as/if when needed at a future date?

The idea of the Dwarf Special Repair Mission, whatever that might be coupled with some PC's who are hired to help, not unlike "An Elf is Hiring" or similar scenarios? Who knows, maybe the Cinder Pits have a subsurface tramway to  Dwarf Run!?

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

rails, think chains of buckets transporting whatever needs transporting, possibly changing directions as required

Seems like the Loony Toon cartoons, Robots or maybe something from when the drones are being made in Star Wars? I'd say in their mines yes but not the tramway that is unless they are literally under the earth as Metcalph proposed...

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

literally under the Earth

Are they cars like on a ski lift, cable cars? This leads to another question, how think is the ground so they'd be under it? Reminds me of the old book Where the Sidewalk Ends...

It could be that in some locations the trams run so deep they actually become cable cars like on ski lifts on if you like it better  

 

Also would they change elevation via 45 degree slopes with cog engines or would all the lines be at the same level deep below grade.

Sometimes repairs are not made as they should be... drunken dwarven gandy dancers? But this does give questions such as how do they make repairs resulting from earthquakes?

I suppose I laugh more when making these posts and responding to them than as I recollect, when we sometimes had gotten out of hand when I was younger in gaming session... both bring a smile to my face.

Thank you all for the input!

 

[EricW]

I always figured the 10,000 dwarves appeared because the compromise was broken, time had stopped in that area, and the dwarves journeyed to the Clanking City via the hero plane?

As for mass transit I would imagine something mundane except for emergencies. Problem with a transit system which dips into other worlds is you might pick up stowaways?

[svensson]

Folks, I really think we're mistaking Glorantha's Clay Mostali for Tolkien's Durin's Folk, and as we are all aware Tolkien and Stafford are two very different styles of fantasy. Dwarf holds are not grand affairs like Moria or Erebor. They're machine shops and warehouses with barracks close by.

Clay Dwarfs have absolutely no need to trade or move goods hundreds of miles. The Diamond Dwarfs are perfectly capable of balancing the needs of any dwarf holding so that all dwarfs in the community are doing their destined jobs in the right balance for the materials available. A dwarf community is the size it needs to be to contribute its work on repairing the World Machine. It needs no outside goods other than luxuries, and such luxuries are a heretical to the Way of Mostal anyway. Dwarfs live very close to their work sites for efficiency's sake and there is no need for dwarf mass transit at all.

According to the Way, every dwarf interaction with other races has been disastrous and has set back the timetable for the Machine's repair by centuries. The wars of the First and Second Ages seriously depleted the number of True Mostali able to guide the restoration and the current generation of Clay Mostali are determined not to repeat those mistakes. They see isolationism as true to the Way of Mostal and a vital aspect to their survival. Unless a community is in open heresy against the Way [as Dwarf Mine is], it could exist since Time began without any living being knowing it... especially in this latter Age where dwarfs are not trying to conquer or fight the Elder Enemies, but rather focusing on the repair of the World Machine.

Therefore, the technologies they do have are theirs and theirs alone. They will not be traded nor observed nor displayed until the glorious day the Machine is repaired and world set right again.

Edited Wednesday at 04:59 AM by svensson

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Clay Dwarfs have absolutely no need to trade or move goods hundreds of miles.

There are tunnels between the Dwarf Cities.  

Quote

Nothing good occurred when the [Nidan - PHM] dwarfs attempted to
send three armies secretly against the Greatway alliance.
One was caught in the open by trolls, who harassed it into
nothing, while another was destroyed in an underground
dwarf ambush [my italics - PHM] from Greatway.

Glorantha Sourcebook p60

There's an earlier mention of the dwarfs sending an "over-ground' army against Belksan in Seshnela (p59) which implies they could reach it by an underground route.

Likewise Slon

Quote

Glimdrung: Only humans are present in
the city streets, but they all swear that exactly twelve
days’ journey straight down from the black obelisk at
the city’s center lies the Decamony’s amphitheatre.

Guide p519

Deep beneath [Inside the Wall] are the vast
cities and palaces of the dwarves; numerous
entrances, some grand, some secret and
hidden, cover the area. Subterranean tunnels
connect the dwarves cities here with the
Fences and the God’s Cliff.

Guide p521

So the Dwarves do have long tunnels.

[Eff]

In the real world, one very impractical but quite efficient theoretical transportation method is the gravity train, which (in the ideal form) takes the exact same amount of time to travel regardless of how long you're traveling, so long as you're moving between two points on the surface of a sphere via a direct tunnel through the sphere. Deviations from the ideal math come from deviations in ideal density. 

Now let's add funicular railways, where one train counterweights another- one goes downhill, the other goes uphill. Instead of using gravity, this train system uses concentrations of the Eight Minerals. Dwarf trains consist of a pair of trainsets, which are built so that each end has a weight that pulls the train towards a concentration of its associated mineral. One train is released and the weight is freed, pulling it "downhill" and the other train "uphill", back to the original station. These tunnels are nonlinear, of course. Going on the Quicksilver Line from Dwarf Run to Greatway might take you to some Jrustelan ruins, then the Mislaris, then Nida... and many of the lines are missing stations altogether due to damage to the integrity of the world-machine. Nothing to do but circumlocute your way around or possibly go by foot. 

There's possibly Clay lines, but any Iron or Diamond lines would be hastily constructed things. Well over budget and behind schedule. I don't like to think about what the service is like. 

[David Scott]

In my HQG Mostali convention game, Outpost 23 (Under the copper caves in Prax) was built by Greatway construction town 27. It was towed into position by BrontoTrans team 18 over a number of years along the newly constructed Gateway Radian 2.094. This new Radian was tunnelled by the elite Greatway tunnel town 1, and at 500m diameter easily accommodated the spherical construction town. On the completion and staffing of Outpost 23, BrontoTrans team 18 returned to tow the town back to the Greatway. BrontoTrans team leader Tin Trax Gumbolt was quoted after the first big heave, "It's the coolest job I've had so far, but I think our next job at Curustus will be bigger".

In this case, the "Mass" transit of Greatway construction town 27 was approximately 1 town (500 billion cubic metres/500 billion dwarf town units)

Edited Wednesday at 11:58 AM by David Scott

[jajagappa]

When my PC's discovered the dwarf tunnels under the Quivin Mountains going to the Dwarf Palace in Boldhome, the tunnels had metal rails on the floor and used carts along those to move goods as needed within the area. 

18 hours ago, svensson said:

Dwarfs live very close to their work sites for efficiency's sake and there is no need for dwarf mass transit at all.

What they do have is imbalances in the location of necessary substances between locations due to fractures and disruptions in the World Machine in the Gods War. Iron is heavily concentrated in Seshnela, copper in various locations, for tin they need to scout for fallen stars, etc. Similar for various types of rocks and for various Rune-associated items. These often in my mind need redistribution to appropriate centers to complete specified tasks.

[PaulJW]

I suppose an underground steam train linking dwarven strongholds is not so unbelievable as it might sound.  Such technology is not really so advanced as many people think.  People worked out that steam power could be used to make an object rotate (the aeolipile) in early Roman times.  Variations on the device are described by two separate scientists of the period - Heron and Vitruvius.  Heron actually described it, literally, as a 'steam engine'.  The only 'advance' from that discovery to the steam train was realising that you could attach that technology to a wheel.  However, the likes of Heron and Vitruvius appear to have regarded it as a kind of party trick or novelty device.  The aeolipile was first described in classical works dating to 30-20 BC, however the aeolipile itself was based on principles first described in a treatise on compressed air and the use of pumps, written by a Greek mathematician named Ctesibius (285-222 BC).

So, in reality, if someone had spotted the practical application of the aeolipile at the time, the Roman Empire could have had steam trains!

So, an underground train system for dwarves is not so unbelievable.  An extensive network of tunnels would have faced the problem of how to vent all that steam and smoke however.  That was probably a bigger technological challenge.    

[David Scott]

31 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

An extensive network of tunnels would have faced the problem of how to vent all that steam and smoke however. 

That's why it's dinosaurs all the way for me per GtG 88-89.

[metcalph]

While Dinosaur control is possible I see that as a Slon-thing.  The Dwarf of Dragon Pass tends to use "blind cave oxen".  Another possibility is Jolanti operated handcars.  During the Bright Empire, the Dwarfs would have experimented with Krarshtkids as a source of transportation.   Since they were found to be a bad idea, I think the Dwarfs have equipped Gremlins with tiny exo-skeletons and mech-suits to hunt down and kill the blighters. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

While Dinosaur control is possible I see that as a Slon-thing.  The Dwarf of Dragon Pass tends to use "blind cave oxen".

I see the Dwarf of Dragon Pass as an outlier. As an aside, it also explains the number of dinosaurs in the region. It's not down to the influence of the tiny Maran Gor cult spread across the region, it's the dwarfs secretly popping out a few spares when the population gets too low, its pretty clear where the exits for the dinodrop teams are. Even dinosaurs are part of the World Machine.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's why it's dinosaurs all the way for me per GtG 88-89.

Giant cthonic earthworms that traverse the great tunnels within the Earth are another option. (Or tamed Lodrili salamanders?)

[Erol of Backford]

9 hours ago, Eff said:

Dwarf trains consist of a pair of trainsets, which are built so that each end has a weight that pulls the train towards a concentration of its associated mineral. One train is released and the weight is freed, pulling it "downhill" and the other train "uphill", back to the original station. These tunnels are nonlinear, of course.

Maybe cog lines or line segments at locations changing elevation have some mechanisms like these?

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

while another was destroyed in an underground
dwarf ambush [my italics - PHM] from Greatway.

So dwarves fighting dwarves... I'll check this out for sure. Imagine dwarvish sabatooers sent to attack other dwarves in their tunnels or maybe PC' sent to intercept. I'd push this towards chaos dwarves being the aggressors but it'd limit them, to say Pavis or east of there, more thought needed on this. I don't recall any active dwarf versus dwarf actions. Are there current 1600-1630 actions of dwarves fighting each other on a larger scale or even skirmishes?

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

they all swear that exactly twelve days’ journey straight down from the black obelisk at the city’s center lies the Decamony’s amphitheatre

So how thick does that make Glorantha's "crust" or whatever you call it? 12 days down... it could be anything, maybe they were falling?! Hate to say it but reminds me of the old D&D Series Descent into the Depths of the Earth (I had both the old monochrome and blue cover issues, much fun there).

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

Outpost 23 (Under the copper caves in Prax) was built by Greatway construction town 27. It was towed into position by BrontoTrans team 18 over a number of years along the newly constructed Gateway Radian 2.094. This new Radian was tunnelled by the elite Greatway tunnel town 1, and at 500m diameter easily accommodated the spherical construction town. On the completion and staffing of Outpost 23, BrontoTrans team 18 returned to tow the town back to the Greatway. BrontoTrans team leader Tin Trax Gumbolt was quoted after the first big heave, "It's the coolest job I've had so far, but I think our next job at Curustus will be bigger".

This fits with grid coordinates easily enough but in lieu of XYZ I'd need to substitute dwarvish symbols. I was thinking it'd just be a coordinates system with XYZ, maybe V and W with Magasta's Pool the origin, where the Spike exploded. I started looking at the existing grid in the AAA and found the map hexes could be used as a grid of sorts and could easily be used to map tunnels... Dwarf Mine to Boldhome, spur to Haunted Ruins, Dwarf Knoll and Pavis. Boldhome South to the Heortland Plateau and on to the Clanking Ruins. What is the best map to use to trace out Dragon Pass and Heortland Plateau dwarf tunnels? Jaja I assume you used a grid of sorts for your tunnels near Boldhome but what was your base map and did it have a "dwarf grid"? 

Keep thinking of the way the roads where shown on the old Starship Troopers game board. Dwarf tunnels would move to avoid dangerous areas underground of course but sometimes they'd discover or run into something dangerous and need to avoid it...

 

Mr. Scott, I do like the dino use as I recall there was a dwarf, "Number Five" who specialized in controlling dinosaurs, from Eldar Secrets. There is also an illustration of the Faceless Statue being deconstructed by dinos while Pavis is being built, by dwarves, of course so there is a good bit of reference there in past Glorantha material for dwarves and dinosaurs. Could lead to some tension between dwarves and dragonewts who'd likely see the dinosaurs as dwarf slaves?

Thank you all for the input, as always!

 

[mfbrandi]

50 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Could lead to some tension between dwarves and dragonewts who’d likely see the dinosaurs as dwarf slaves?

I was imagining Krarsht and Her Children manoeuvring Her hapless cultists into setting up a Quakebeast Liberation Front to recruit — and provide cutting-edge bioweaponry to — unhinged Maran Gorites, who would then wage a fanatical guerrilla war against the dwarf slavers. But now you have me wondering whether She could get into the minds of the dragonewts, too? Could they be made to care? Any devious thing to give the “bugs” an edge over the Mobile Infantry/Mostali Idiots.

Grower vs. Maker. Shaper vs. Mechanist. Existenz.

[Erol of Backford]

42 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Any devious thing to give the “bugs” an edge over the Mobile Infantry/Mostali Idiots.

Chaos tainted giant ants or just plain giant ants? I love the idea of dwarven tunnels and complexes infested with them. Another scenario plot. Maybe the myrmidons have pet or allied giant ants, seems they would anyway.

I suppose dwarves have flamethrowers (projected oil) and gas masks (skin of life matrix) in order to deal with smoke and insect infestations? Maybe they just flood the tunnels with water which is held in giant tanks or underground reservoir to kill the invaders? Valves and pipes likely used.

The idea that some sort of parasitic fungi that could cause brain malfunction in dwarves which could grow in certain tunnel conditions, could be more than just athlete's foot for dwarves.

I forgot that the dwarves would likely add an underground spur to the Cinder Pits mine operation, who knows it might even intersect Rainbow Mounds underground somewhere or connect to it deep underground?