Comparative Systemology

[Joseph Paul]

Sorry Joseph, for some reason I thought the point was that no one would want a .45 as the .22 did more damage over the course of a round. But damn it, I still made a good point.

Rod Leary

OK I am confused and not getting the reason for the big smiley. At the risk of spoilng the joke could you please explain it? Also are you related to SD, I noticed the 'Leary' on the end of both your names.

[Trifletraxor]

This is the last post I'll make to this thread, as I'm going to significantly reduce my presence on these forums with the completion my BRP edits.

Good to hear the edits are completed! :happy:

Sorry to hear that we will hear less from you. :ohwell:

If someone were to approach me with advice writing materials for BRP, the first thing I'd tell them is "You will not be able to please everyone, and knowing that, you should probably stay off the forums altogether. Don't even read them."

Over the past month, I've seen several potential authors tell me they've seen the response here and lost interest. Rather than thinking "I'd like to write for that game line", they're thinking "What's the point if the fans will hate it before they see a word of it? Who needs the hassle?"

That's harsh. I can understand you have had a rought time and all, but the respons on this forum to the publication of the Basic Roleplaying book have actually been massively positive. Even those who say they strongly disagree with some selected game mechanics in the book, and those who see RQ3 as the pinnacle of Roleplaying Design, say they will buy the new book. That should at least mean something.

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

I know I'm happy with the new book at least!

SGL.

[frogspawner]

This is the last post I'll make to this thread, as I'm going to significantly reduce my presence on these forums with the completion my BRP edits.

...

"What's the point if the fans will hate it before they see a word of it? Who needs the hassle?"

I think he's stressed, guys. I hope you're ashamed of yourselves!

I'll walk you through a combo of the options...

• Hit Points Per Location in addition to general HP... I don't use 'em
  
• Fatigue Points and Sanity... I don't use 'em
  
• Armor per Hit Location is easy enough to add, but what if the GM wants random armor? ...I don't use 'em
  
• Heroic Hit Points doubles HP ...I don't use 'em
  
• Splitting Attack and Parry Skills... ...I don't use 'em
  
• Skill Category Modifiers - ...I don't use 'em
  
• Simpler Skill Bonuses - ok, I do use a version of these (called "characteristics")
  
• Increased Personal Skill Points, Cultural Modifiers, EDU/Knowledge rolls, etc. - ...I don't use 'em
  
• Skill Ratings Over 100% - ...I don't mind about 'em (just means it's a tough NPC or a TOUGH one!)
  

From that it looks like the emphasis (or in most cases, de-emphasis) Mr D has been giving BRP is pretty much in line with the way I like to play my games. And this from an RQ2 Grognard. So, for what it's worth, I reckon 'the boy done good'.

[The Venomous Pao]

I'll just repeat myself by saying that I think BRP looks great. I'm a happy owner (and reader) of Edition Zero and I look forward to the eventual release of the final version. I expect I'll get some very nice gaming in with BRP, enjoying the options and elegance of the system to the utmost.

So cheers to Jason and the rest of the folks involved in bringing this out-of-print goodness back to the world. It's no fault of theirs if people are happier whinging (especially about things they haven't looked at first hand) than they are playing.

On that note, I've decided that the negativity among certain folks on this forum only reinforces my belief that I don't much need to be hanging out on RPG boards. So I don't think I'll be around much anymore, either. Y'all have fun with the internecine warfare, ok?

Oh, and if it turns out my players all decide that a light pistol is the best weapon in the universe then I'll roll with it. Perhaps I'll tweak the rules if that somehow gets to me. Who knows? I'm crazy like that.

[SDLeary]

Good to hear the edits are completed! :happy:

Sorry to hear that we will hear less from you. :ohwell:

That's harsh. I can understand you have had a rought time and all, but the respons on this forum to the publication of the Basic Roleplaying book have actually been massively positive. Even those who say they strongly disagree with some selected game mechanics in the book, and those who see RQ3 as the pinnacle of Roleplaying Design, say they will buy the new book. That should at least mean something.

SGL.

<don fire retardant suit; step on soap box>

It is harsh, but it needed to be said. Potential developers WILL look at fora like this one. Now, imagine a company that isn't really familiar with how rabid (yes rabid) we are as fans of this system, but they have heard good things about Chtulhu, perhaps played a bit. Now, drop them into this forum, and look at the overall tone of the threads.

In may cases they are not simply discussions of the merits, or perceived lack. They are rant and flame fests. Honestly, if you were a company interested in producing a product, and saw this, wouldn't you loose interest too?

Now, I'm not saying that this kind of discourse is bad overall. What we have achieved here has been stated in Jason's post above, meaning that we will not have to wait for three months for an extensive list of errata, though I'm sure there will be some.But the signal to noise ratio is way over the top for a product that is still in editing. Especially from those that have yet to see the pre-release/proof copy.

We all need to tone it down a notch or two.

SDLeary

<getting off soap box; walking away with fire retardant suit STILL ON!>

[The Tweaker]

I don't know if it's one of your intended goals, but the primary result of all of this intensely negative feedback based on a game book you still haven't seen has made me reevaluate my own availability and willingness to discuss the development of the game in a public forum.

First of all, I hope your father-in-law gets better soon.

I must say that I feel very sorry about your decision, however.

I really enjoyed your presence in this forum. Your willingness to reply to all our questions has probably been decisive in keeping me interested in buying a copy of the book, even with all the delays. Your posts on rpg.net got me interested in the new BRP book in the first place, too.

If someone were to approach me with advice writing materials for BRP, the first thing I'd tell them is "You will not be able to please everyone, and knowing that, you should probably stay off the forums altogether. Don't even read them."

I generally enjoy rpg forums, but I am not so sure about this one lately. It was cool at first, but I am getting increasingly tired with all the endless discussions about guns, bullet caliber, inches of armor, realism (duh!) and whining about BRP-not-being-anymore-like-the-Runequest-I-love-so-much.

Now, I understand everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I am willing to admit that some of the discussions have been actually useful and informative, but I am beginning to see how all the negativity from some posters risks alienating new fans (including me). I simply cannot understand all the criticisms levelled against a product which hasn't even been published (in its final form, at least) and all this is reinforcing my belief in that BRP's worst enemies are its own fans (well, some of them... generalizing is always bad).

On that note, I've decided that the negativity among certain folks on this forum only reinforces my belief that I don't much need to be hanging out on RPG boards. So I don't think I'll be around much anymore, either. Y'all have fun with the internecine warfare, ok?

It is a shame, Pao. I'd really like to see more of your character write-ups, but I understand your reasons. I think I will quietly wait until it is finally released and my copy is in my hands.

Oh, and if it turns out my players all decide that a light pistol is the best weapon in the universe then I'll roll with it. Perhaps I'll tweak the rules if that somehow gets to me. Who knows? I'm crazy like that.

:thumb:

[Nightshade]

In may cases they are not simply discussions of the merits, or perceived lack. They are rant and flame fests. Honestly, if you were a company interested in producing a product, and saw this, wouldn't you loose interest too?

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

And its _immensely_ more civil than was the routine when I was on the USENET rpg groups.

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

[Atgxtg]

I generally enjoy rpg forums, but I am not so sure about this one lately. It was cool at first, but I am getting increasingly tired with all the endless discussions about guns, bullet caliber, inches of armor, realism (duh!) and whining about BRP-not-being-anymore-like-the-Runequest-I-love-so-much.

And who twisted you arm to read those threads? Most of the threads where people are discussion details are clearly marked for what they are. So what do you expect when you go there. That those threads are the most active is less a sign of how negative the forum is but more like how the people who don't want to discuss those topics aren't posting much on other topics.

Look at how many of the idea threads that people started that haven't been touched in weeks. No one's posted squat in the western thread, the Planet of the Apes thread, Taslantia, or any of the other "idea" threads.

Then people who don't want to hear negative stuff don't post positive stuff themselves, but come to threads like, oh, this one here, to gripe about negativity. This thread here is a classic case. It was started as a split off from another thread by soltakss to discuss those things that he didn't like about the new BRP.

So anyone who comes into this thread and complains about it being negative is really pretty dense. It would be like going into the Roman thread and complaining about the thread being to Rome-centric. Duh.

Same with the firearms threads.

If someone doesn't want to know what player's reactions to something is, they don't have to go into that thread and read it, do they? If they do go in there, then they have no right to get upset about the reactions, no matter how much they might disagree with them or consider them trivial, nitpicking or whatever.

Should we put a warning on the threads-"This might contain something you might not want to see"? No one put a "medium pistol" to anybody's head and forced them to read that thread. No one made anyone come into this one and read sotlakss's reservations about MRQ.

I don't agree with soltakss opinions all the time. Heck, I probably have the one-line record for disagreeing with him, but I can't fault the man for having them. I might disagree with them, openly or privately, but it it bothers me then it's my own damn fault for going into a thread he started and reading them.

If people don't want to read anything negative then they should join a religious cult where everything is spelled out for them, and stay award from anything where more than one person can express an opinion.

If the vast majority of people's reactions to BRP have been positive, and only a handful have been negative, then getting upset because that minority does wish to express themselves is actually more "whining" that I've heard from the critics.

"Oh no, a small number of people said something I don't want to head in a thread that I didn't have to look at, so I'm going to pick up my toys and go home."

Now, I understand everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I am willing to admit that some of the discussions have been actually useful and informative, but I am beginning to see how all the negativity from some posters risks alienating new fans (including me). I simply cannot understand all the criticisms leveled against a product which hasn't even been published (in its final form, at least) and all this is reinforcing my belief in that BRP's worst enemies are its own fans (well, some of them... generalizing is always bad).

No. Chasoium has been BRP's own worst enemy. It is because there are still fans buying up and playing old product that the game hasn't sank into oblivion decades ago. It's been all the mistakes and missteps made since the Avalon Hill deal that have hurt all the BRP games more than the fans. Fans by product. No one else does.

Controversy and criticism doesn't mean squat as long as the books are selling. Look at MRQ. Quite a larger number of RQ and BRP fans hate MRQ, including a sizable percentage of the membership here, and the MRQ forums have been far most negative about MRQ than this place has ever gotten. As many of the members here know. Yet as long as Mongoose can sell MRQ product the criticism means squat.

I think a good deal of the conflict around BRP stems from it attempting to be the ultimate collection of BRP rules. No matter what what it went, it wasn't going to appeal to somebody.

[Atgxtg]

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

Yeah the MRQ board got so hot that it was making RPG.net look tame, several threads got deleted, and some posters got banned multiple times, including a certain member of the Coleoptera order who is a key presence here.

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

Yeah, I've seen authors pop up on several forums and it always goes about the same. There are some critics who will disagree with every direction the author takes, but then there are some sycophants who will even praise the typos as a sign of genius. The majority of the forum will be somewhere between the extremes, and get lost in the shuffle.

If people want to promote a more positive feeling, why not start some positive threads. How about a "I Love BRP" thread where those who have/love zero can speak up?

Rise up ye masses and be counted!

[raymond_turney]

Hi,

My condolences Jason.

Authors are going to feel unappreciated and under-compensated. They are going to get a lot of criticism by fans who haven't dealt with putting out a game; misunderstand design objectives; ungratefully insist that the author should have written the game that is in their heads, assume that draft copies of the rules are final, etc.

In short, fans are human beings, and your human being leaves a lot to be desired.

On the other hand, in this load of {expletive deleted} some of the criticism will be useful. Like editing or code review, the process usually improves the product. Remember the George Bernard Shaw line:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself. All progress is due to the unreasonable man."

So stay out for a while, but remember that today's passions will be replaced by those of tomorrow, unless you attain enlightenment.

Ray,

[SDLeary]

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

And its _immensely_ more civil than was the routine when I was on the USENET rpg groups.

Not the point. I agree its far more civil than USENET. In some ways far more civil than RPGnet. Mongoose... haven't hit that forum in forever because its almost all noise.

The point is that first impressions do matter. Especially when your about to risk your own savings, that of your buddy or your family, and perhaps what ever investors you have.

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

Yes... I realize thats somewhat unrealistic, at least the money part. That is, however, the type of decision that could be made based upon the noise level in fora.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

I do too. And I credit that as a contributing factor in the way Jason has been delivering posts lately, and venting in the last one. But go back and read his post again. There were some points other than his personal displeasure that he was trying to deliver.

Im not sure that this is his first experience as point author. He has written and contributed quite a bit to various game. As for the sale of Edition Zero, it is a mixed blessing. But its one that we (the fans) pestered Chaosium for. If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

SDLeary

[Trifletraxor]

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

A game system will always have discussions about which game mechanics are the best to use. If you look at the planned supplements, and the threads covering them, you actually don't see a single critical post. (Well, I don't see one at least). The only flame I've seen on this forum was related to a sorcery and shaman discussion, which really had nothing to do with the new system at all.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

Well, that's rule #1 or #2 on this forum (I don't remember which): Self -moderate yourself. Still, while there is a lot of noice, I don't see much flame here.

If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

It is, and some of the discussions have erupted since BRP ZERO was so unfinished when sent out. People argueing about the range of firearms can't be much of a surprise when all the footnotes have disappeared. That Chaosium is even able to publish a "Zero Edition" says a lot about the passion for this game.

SGL.

[soltakss]

When BRP comes out, I will buy it.

When many of the supplements come out, I will buy them.

As with RQM and other versions of RQ, I will generally review BRP with a favourable eye, hoping to get other people to buy the product.

I will support BRP on my website, as I do with RQ at the moment.

I can't see how I can be more positive about BRP.

If saying that I'd have liked BRP to be more RQ-like is negative then I apologise about being negative.

If saying that I would like BRP to be less like Call of Cthulhu, a game I am on record as not liking, is negative then I apologise for being negative.

But I will not apologise for expressing my own views on a public forum.

I have criticised RQ in the past, am not a huge fan of RQM and will no doubt criticise BRP in the future if the supplements are not up to scratch. If I buy the products, surely I have the right to express my opinions about those products.

Granted, I have not bought BRP Zero both for financial reasons and because I am waiting for the complete version to come out, but I have seen the playtest version and have commented on that.

When BRP eventually comes out, expect to see glowing reviews.

[Shaira]

Blimey - I look away for a couple of days and look what happens! It's like the last scene in a Stormbringer scenario here - major wounds and body parts everywhere, walls covered in blood, widows and children sobbing in the corner, and some Unspeakable Slimy Mess bubbling on the floor over there that once must have been ... ugh... that's just not right...

Actually I tend to steer clear of threads on RPG boards which get passionately bogged down in opinion-based statistical minutiae. You know the sort - "hell, faster-than-light travel just can't work based on expanding the tunnelling phenomenon of electrons, this game just sucks..." "Does not!" "Does too!" Cue Wild Bill Hicks moment as Goat Boy comes cavorting on stage... >:->

I'm on record as saying I've been very, very well pleased with BRP Zero, and am looking forwards to the first edition as it looks likely to be a superlative release. In the same way I tend to avoid negative discussions where people who haven't actually seen the rules start criticising them. Hey, it's your god-given right, but it's not too productive beyond the Grand Catharsis of a Good Rant (which I enjoy as much as the next carbon-based lifeform).

But it's always difficult in a project lifecycle when the customer base gets its hands on a product earlier than expected. We all cajoled Chaosium into releasing the Zero Ed, and on the whole I think it's been an excellent idea, though a damned rough ride for Jason. I used to work in financial services web-design, and the beta release of websites I created used to feel very similar - huge amounts of heat, and all you can say is "hey guys, thanks for the feedback - but do remember it's not finished yet!" and try and keep smiling. I must admit I never had to take heat from people who HADN'T seen the product, though. I can see that would be a whole different world of pain - definitely an itch you can't scratch.

But, well - a zero-release is just that. It's a proof copy. It's a very rare attempt for us, the customers, to give pre-release feedback. How we do that is pretty much a measure of etiquette - I didn't shell out my hard-earned readies expecting a finished product, so I'm viewing the chance to raise questions and ask for clarifications as an opportunity to ensure the final release is as bug-free and user-friendly as everything else we've come to expect from Chaosium. Of course we have a *right* to be as critical, harsh, condemnatory, or god-damn argumentative as we like, but this is a pre-release product and we're representing a community of BRP fans who surely have more of an interest in being constructive than destructive. Heck, some of us may even have written games ourselves.

Lastly - to everyone who has constructive ideas on how game systems can be tweaked and certain genres enhanced (I'm thinking of the gun guys, the sorcery guys, and the vehicle design systems guys), I'm sure you'll agree that the BRP rules provide a foundation to build on - playable, by all means, but in no way the last word. If you have the expertise to research, generate, playtest, and release a whole system of modern firearms and wounding rules which slot into the BRP system, then - hell, yeah, go for it! I'm sure some games would LOVE that stuff. Get ready to take flak for people saying you're wrong, though - there's always someone who disagrees!

Anyway - long meditative post over. I'd just like to join the voices thanking Jason for a sterling job, and wishing him all the very best with the tough family problems he's going through right now. Hang in there.

Drinks are on me down Gimpy's! :thumb:

Sarah

[Kloster]

When BRP comes out, I will buy it.

When many of the supplements come out, I will buy them.

As with RQM and other versions of RQ, I will generally review BRP with a favourable eye, hoping to get other people to buy the product.

I will support BRP on my website, as I do with RQ at the moment.

I can't see how I can be more positive about BRP.

If saying that I'd have liked BRP to be more RQ-like is negative then I apologise about being negative.

If saying that I would like BRP to be less like Call of Cthulhu, a game I am on record as not liking, is negative then I apologise for being negative.

But I will not apologise for expressing my own views on a public forum.

I have criticised RQ in the past, am not a huge fan of RQM and will no doubt criticise BRP in the future if the supplements are not up to scratch. If I buy the products, surely I have the right to express my opinions about those products.

Granted, I have not bought BRP Zero both for financial reasons and because I am waiting for the complete version to come out, but I have seen the playtest version and have commented on that.

When BRP eventually comes out, expect to see glowing reviews.

Exactly the same for me.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

Anyway - long meditative post over. I'd just like to join the voices thanking Jason for a sterling job, and wishing him all the very best with the tough family problems he's going through right now. Hang in there.

...

On this one, I think we all agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[threedeesix]

OK I am confused and not getting the reason for the big smiley. At the risk of spoilng the joke could you please explain it? Also are you related to SD, I noticed the 'Leary' on the end of both your names.

No joke to spoil. I just liked my comparison and thought I gave a good reason to choose the .45 over the .22. even if I misunderstood your actual comment.

And while I don't know SD personally, you never know.

Rod Leary

[Nightshade]

Not the point. I agree its far more civil than USENET. In some ways far more civil than RPGnet. Mongoose... haven't hit that forum in forever because its almost all noise.

The point is that first impressions do matter. Especially when your about to risk your own savings, that of your buddy or your family, and perhaps what ever investors you have.

My point is that people who respond negatively to webboards should probably not use webboards. Net culture is what it is, and if they're getting put off by what they see here, what reaction are they having to other places on the Web? I'm not going to assume that some potential writer/publisher for BRP suddenly dropped into this board after never using one before. And if they have, I'm going to have to assume they understand its business as usual. So I honestly think that someone who is likely to be scared off from doing product because of the tone of posts on here is, well, a little bit too brittle for the industry anyway, because I can guarentee that the first time they do something that doesn't suit some part of their market, they'll get bitching about it. Loud, hyperbolic bitching most likely. That's the gaming hobby in general and the Web in general, and the intersection of the two doesn't produce anything but what you'd expect if you're at all experienced with the pieces.

So I'm kind of afraid I either don't buy the premise, or to the degree I do think that its no great loss; people so put off from reading this board that they don't want to publish probably _are_ better off not getting into this industry, because sooner or later it'll only give them grief if they don't have a halfway thick skin.

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

Hah. Their audience will give you _twice_ the trouble.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

This still assumes that the flame and noise level in here is high. I think I'm arguing that by any common standard for such things, its not.

Im not sure that this is his first experience as point author. He has written and contributed quite a bit to various game. As for the sale of Edition Zero, it

I could be incorrect, but there's usually a difference between being a contributing author and a main author. The latter have to catch a lot more commentary. And the author of a revision has a particularly hard time of it because he has to deal with established expectations.

is a mixed blessing. But its one that we (the fans) pestered Chaosium for. If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

SDLeary

I understand why they did it; I understand why people wanted it; but I think the take home from Jason's comments is that it did turn some of the negativity up because people are essentially responding to an unedited draft in some ways as though it was a final product, and that's got to have added to his stress level pretty good.

[Joseph Paul]

No joke to spoil. I just liked my comparison and thought I gave a good reason to choose the .45 over the .22. even if I misunderstood your actual comment.

And while I don't know SD personally, you never know.

Rod Leary

Oh! I get the the reasons you listed, thank you for them.

[Trifletraxor]

So I'm kind of afraid I either don't buy the premise, or to the degree I do think that its no great loss; people so put off from reading this board that they don't want to publish probably _are_ better off not getting into this industry, because sooner or later it'll only give them grief if they don't have a halfway thick skin.

Yup. There will always be some critic. You can't get it all right, and you can't please everybody. Still, I don't believe the product have been given a tough reception here either. Have a look at the MRQ boards, rude people saying their dog could have regurgitated better stuff and constant complaining about broken rules. What have we got here? Some disagreement about weapon tables, hit locations and vehicle rules?

I understand why they did it; I understand why people wanted it; but I think the take home from Jason's comments is that it did turn some of the negativity up because people are essentially responding to an unedited draft in some ways as though it was a final product, and that's got to have added to his stress level pretty good.

Lost footnotes created a lot of misunderstandings, no doubt about that.

SGL.

[Nightshade]

Yup. There will always be some critic. You can't get it all right, and you can't please everybody. Still, I don't believe the product have been given a tough reception here either. Have a look at the MRQ boards, rude people saying their dog could have regurgitated better stuff and constant complaining about broken rules. What have we got here? Some disagreement about weapon tables, hit locations and vehicle rules?

That was kind of my take on it; the roughest exchange I've seen on the whole board was the back and forth between me and Atxgtx a while back on the typical game and what's needed in it, and that was about typical for even slightly heated exchanges in most game boards I've ever seen. Its the idea this has been a rough board that's kind of boggling to me, and the idea that as such its likely to discourage people. Dear gods, if they think this is a rough board, their heads would explode if they ever visited therpgsite.com.

I'm not saying that everyone couldn't potentially be a little nicer sometimes, but to hold up the average reaction on here as excessive or particularly rude just seems to only make sense in the context of people who are new to the Web.

[Atgxtg]

That was kind of my take on it; the roughest exchange I've seen on the whole board was the back and forth between me and Atxgtx a while back on the typical game and what's needed in it, and that was about typical for even slightly heated exchanges in most game boards I've ever seen. Its the idea this has been a rough board that's kind of boggling to me, and the idea that as such its likely to discourage people. Dear gods, if they think this is a rough board, their heads would explode if they ever visited therpgsite.com.

I'm not saying that everyone couldn't potentially be a little nicer sometimes, but to hold up the average reaction on here as excessive or particularly rude just seems to only make sense in the context of people who are new to the Web.

Actually, I agree with Triff in that the Sorcery wars threadjack got a lot more heated that our sparring. Out conflict ended up with our finding a sort of common ground.

And, typically, the worse/rudest posts were not from the critics but reactionary counter attacks from the faithful. Not from Jason, mind you, but from supporters who leaped in to ridicule people for daring to question something in the first place.

[Nightshade]

Actually, I agree with Triff in that the Sorcery wars threadjack got a lot more heated that our sparring. Out conflict ended up with our finding a sort of common ground.

Fair enough. But even that was hardly exceptional as gameboard arguments go.

[Atgxtg]

Fair enough. But even that was hardly exceptional as gameboard arguments go.

Nah, pretty tame. THe MRQ forums were a lot worse. It got so bad they the guys I was arguing in had to step in and defend me when some fanboys just started making personal attacks.

By comparison this place is fairly tame and civil. Plus I think most of us have benefited by many of these discussions.

The alternative is for everyone to keep their mouth shut, praise the powers that be, never voice an opinion, and drink the poisoned Kool-Aide when it comes around.