Why is BRP not that popular?

[Nightshade]

Why BRP isn't that popular?

1) Because BRP just came out, has not drawn a lot of attention to itself yet, nor does it havea lot of supplmenets, nor it is backed by a "machine" like D&D, Storyteller, GURPS, or any of the "popular" systems.

2) RQ was/is popular, but dropped off the gaming radar due to some mistakes made at Chaoisum and the company's economic woes.

I dunno, A; during the peak of RQ's popularity, it was pretty much next to the only meaningful alternative to the D&D paradigm; even the couple other more or less viable fantasy games of the time (Chivalry and Sorcery, DragonQuest) carried a lot of the level-and-experience point baggage that D&D did, so if you really wanted away from that, RQ was your game. Such people have a lot of options these days that don't come with the D&D baggage, even in the fantasy game end.

3) CoC is popular, and has been fairly well supported over the years.

I'm not particularly convinced CoC's popularity has too much to do with system, though; even among horror games, CoC is in its own special little place, and I suspect any system that didn't actively intrude on that would be successful to some degree. I'm not sure its success speaks much to the strength of BRP as a general game system either yea or nay.

[AikiGhost]

So what were saying is publishers need a license available from Chaosium that allows game designers to make full games using the BRP rule set that say "BRP compatible" or similar on the cover that contain the setting along with the rules fully tailored to genre? I think I agree with this one.

[slimyroleplaying]

I had no idea this game existed until I saw a review on Game Geeks.

[Atgxtg]

I had no idea this game existed until I saw a review on Game Geeks.

Not you fault. Chances are you wern't around and gaming when RQ was at it's peak 25 years ago. Even back then, most of the gamers I knew were not familar with the system or had played it much.

One thing us grizzled old RPG vets can do every now it then is pull out some long dead RPG system and surprise younger gamers who were never aware that such a game had existed.

[frogspawner]

I had no idea this game existed until I saw a review on Game Geeks.

Not you fault. ... surprise younger gamers who were never aware that such a game had existed.

Exactly. More evidence the answer to the OP is (lack of) Marketing.

The question now is: What to do about it?

Personally I favour a bare-bones introductory adventure*, on a single A4 sheet (or possibly A3, and perhaps double-sided), so we can each print a hundred-or-two** and put 'em through people's doors like fast-food flyers.

(* Or a series of 'em, for different genres)

(** What? Don't you have access to a work copier? >:->)

[frogspawner]

Chaosium are, to my knowledge, in possession of at least three ...

That'd be great. Free to print and distribute, right? I hope they're not intending to make people pay for 'em...

[NickMiddleton]

That'd be great. Free to print and distribute, right? I hope they're not intending to make people pay for 'em...

My memory of the email exchange with Dustin is that the idea was they would be put up on the website as PDF's and Chaosium would print them and hand them out at conventions, plus possibly send packs of them out via distribution for retailers to hand out etc. I don't recall any suggestion of charging for them.

Cheers,

Nick

[Shaira]

Yup - I wrote one too. A sort of Star Wars "Escape from Death Star" type thingie. I don't know whether they've actually got used yet...

These are pretty tiny flyer-type things, but they're certainly handy for helping get the word out.

Cheers,

Sarah

[Atgxtg]

I think the intros are a good idea, but the real problem is finding a way to get BRP out in front of the D&D crowd.

Back in the early 80s the gaming RPGs were much more geared to promoting the RPG hobby than today, where they promote one RPG system or company. So it was possible for someone reading Dragon to stumble across the occasional article for RuneQuest, DragonQuest, or Traveller.

Today, the internet does allow us to better communicate with each other, but it also tends to make us less likely to see something that we were not looking for. Free scenarios on BRP sites only work for those already dfamilar with BRP. We need to figure out a waqy to get this stuff out where it will do the most good.

I'm thnking back on how I got into RQ/BRP, and it was a very indirect route. I was helping a friend a fellow D&D gamer move his book/gaming store and in the process "discovered" the Elric novels. This got me hooked on Elric, and eager to buy an Elric based RPG--Stormbringer. Strombringer led to RuneQuest, and so on. If I didn't look at the right place at the right time, I might have missed out of BRP entirely.

Like a lot of BRP fans, I think that BRP would be a lot more popular if more gamers were exposed to it. But us telling each other how great it is is just "preaching to the choir". What we need to do it to find a way to take "our message" into "enemy territory" and covert or cross-pollinate some of the D20 crowd. To do that, we have to do more than make stuff accessible. We have to find a way to get it up in the spots where the D20 crowd are looking.

Anyone got any idea how?

[rust]

Anyone got any idea how?

I am active on several forums, mostly "back home" in Germany. On most of

these forums I began to write little posts about BRP shortly before it was

published, and since then I have written a couple of "updates" about the

material already published for BRP and all the stuff that is "in the pipeline".

When someone posts a question about what RPG system he should use for

a certain genre or setting, I usually encourage him to take a look at BRP,

and I mention quite often that I use BRP as the system for my own settings.

A couple of days ago I uploaded my notes for the conversion of Traveller

characters into BRP characters for my new Enki II setting into the download

section of my "home forum", Fundus Ludi, and I will soon upload them to

another forum, too.

In my opinion this "by word of mouth approach" is the easiest way to inform

people that BRP does exist, and to encourage them to see for themselves

whether they could like and use the system.

Chaosium's marketing, flyers and all this are fine and necessary, but in my

experience something like a link to the excellent content of the download

section of BRP Central can be a little help, too - the Middle Earth creatures,

for example, were surprisingly well received on my "home forum", and cau-

sed a couple of people to think about BRP for the first time.

So, just spread the word where there is an opportunity to do so.

[Shiba Homer]

As far as I know there were no refs at Gen-con UK for BDRP even though they had freestuff to give anyone who would (couldn't make it due to money problems). Was no one told here? (seem to remember they were).

A real dropping of the ball there by Chaosium I think.

What about places like drivethrough RPG? people like free stuff...

[vagabond]

As far as I know there were no refs at Gen-con UK for BDRP even though they had freestuff to give anyone who would (couldn't make it due to money problems). Was no one told here? (seem to remember they were).

A real dropping of the ball there by Chaosium I think.

What about places like drivethrough RPG? people like free stuff...

Chaosium really throws their support behind things like Continuum and

Tentacles, and they had had some some success running games at Gen Con

Indy. I believe some demos were run at Gen Con UK, but the call for refs

apparently did not succeed. And, they do a number of local (to them) cons

like DundraCon and KublaCon.

-V

[Atgxtg]

Another reason why BRP isn't that popular* Player expectations and goals.

Recently I've been running a CODA LOTR campaign (I statred it before BRP was out, otherwise I might have run BRP instead). ZOne thing I've noticed is that most of my players don't seem to "get" the system or the setting. Instead of taking advantage of the system'S flexibiliy, character options, and colorful setting, the players seem to be trying to play it like D&D. They are hunting for XP, gold and magic, and are disappointed that the world doesn't work the way the expect.

A lot of gamers, especially those who have nearly exclusively played D&D, bring those expectations to other RPGs, and get frustrated with the new game when things do go as expected. IF D&Ders don't rack up XP awards, and find a certain amount of gold and magic, they thing something is "wrong", and usually blame the RPG.

I7ve seen this in the past with RQ related game too. Most of my players started off with D&D and hand to learn to adapt to other RPGs and how to appreciate the different features of different games. For example, most of the D&Ders I knew wern't bother that you couldn't run a swashbuckler type lightly armored fighter in AD&D. They just accepted that high defense/AC required heavy armor and that was that.

SO I think in order for BRP to be more popular, players have to want the features that BRP has. Unfortunately, a lot, if not most of the gaming world, doesn't seem to care about those features.

[Bygoneyrs]

Wow...I tell you guys...I have played one version or another of D&D now for 32+ years, BUT my campaigns have always been focused on Roleplaying first and Realistic Combat system next. Getting into combat was extremely deadly in my game for the NPCs and PCs alike. Also I tended to get rid of Hack n Slashers out of my gaming groups. I have been extremely lucky to have a group of six players that are all DM/GMs themselves (with their own gaming groups) now for some 12+ years. We would play using many House Rules that much of them came from other BRP books of the past. We played AD&D, Gamma World, and Traveller.

So to answer this threads question, I would say with the failure of WOC D&D v4, and the new HS v6 coming out...that the stage is set for BRP system to get out their and make itself know and attrack all the players that have fled the above two systems. Now is the time to support and put out products for the game. I would say make a resource for Fantasy, Post-Apocalyptic, and Space setting. Then start make adventures and etc. The US gaming market is wripe for a new system, why not BRP.

Penn

[Nightshade]

So to answer this threads question, I would say with the failure of WOC D&D v4,

This is at best a way overstatement, and at worst massive wishful thinking.

[Bygoneyrs]

Wishful thinking... have you been following or reading all the articles that have come out about the decline or loss of older gamers (those with all the buy cash) for the WOC v4 D&D. Every forum is talking about it and quite a few gaming stores that I visit have also reported players are just not buying the new books. These game store owners in my area (Greater Philadelphia, PA and Southern New Jersey areas) all seem to tell me that the older gamers refuse to play the new version of D&D. They also say that all the younger folks don't have the money to buy these books higher priced books, and those that did aren't buying them either. Sales are down, interest is down, and activitiy is also down. WOC cult their own throats and pissed off many of their older gamers with D&D v4, and ending the Dragon magazine (printed). I have always spent alot of money of gaming stuff each year, BUT they will no longer see a dime of mine again. Plus all my six players are all DM/GMs as well and they all have their own gaming groups(each having 5-6 players with a DM/GM each) and they all have dropped D&D too. Now one seems to love the new version of D&D except those that have played and like Star Wars Saga edition. So I am only speaking of what I have read on different forums, and what my players and their players are all saying, plus the game store owners. It seems to quite a few that WOC DD v4 isn't doing as well as was hoped and that many older players with the cash to spend are NOT BUYING the new books or even playing. Besides my own son (age 13) whom GMs for his own group of 5 players, plays Hero Systems v5R. He uses Fantasy Hero and has picked up BRP and has started to read it. He doesn't like D&D v4 and likes the complicated HS v5R better.

Penn

This is at best a way overstatement, and at worst massive wishful thinking.

[vagabond]

And yet D&Dv4 is top RPG dog at Amazon day in and day out

currently. No other FRPG comes close (Dark Heresy is the closest,

and it is far behind). And, as far as RPGs go, Star Wars is the nearest

competition.

D&Dv4 is still the 800 lb gorilla. People said the same about 3.5 when it came

out, that they stopped buying and playing, etc. But it still sold very well,

and many of those that complained came back into the fold. I suspect

the same will happen with v4.

-V

[Nightshade]

Wishful thinking... have you been following or reading all the articles that have come out about the decline or loss of older gamers (those with all the buy cash) for the WOC v4 D&D. Every forum is talking about it and quite a few gaming stores that I visit have also reported players are just not buying the new books. These game store owners in my

The problem is game stores have stopped being a reliable metric, because there's every reason to believe that the biggest part of gamebook sales now take place online, so until one has some numbers from online retailers (particularly big target ones like Amazon) any claim of failure is, at best, premature.

Gamestores are, like it or not, probably a dying institution for the most part, and what's happening in them is, if not irrelevant, only a small, and not clearly important, part of the picture. Simply ancedotally I know any number of gamers both new and old that haven't stepped into a game store in months or years. About the point most of them started shrinkwrapping books, there lacked being much point unless you're one of the people who play in them.

[frogspawner]

This is at best a way overstatement, and at worst massive wishful thinking.

Surely we can rule out 'wishful thinking' from a D&Der of 30+ years standing.

To say "D&D4 has failed" may be overstatement, but if we can read between the lines and see a group of 7 experienced D&D GM's each with their own groups giving D&D4 the Thumbs Down and looking for something else...

...what better evidence do you need that it's simply the truth?

Bygoneyrs, are you and your cohorts intending to stick with AD&D/GW/Traveller or are you all intending to change to a new system?

BRP (with some houserules) should be good for all those genres...

[Bygoneyrs]

Well I can't speak for others, but I will not buy version 4 myself. I buy everything and have been very blessed to have the extra cash to dump on my hobby over the years. So for me I have decided to STOP buying anything WOC puts out for D&Dv4, and will not buy HS v6 either. My focus will be Traveller , and now it would seem BRP products as well.

So call me a Convert, I will have no problem with convincing my players to also convert to BRP d100 system. If they all do that then they will use that system to rebuild/convert their own games/campaigns to use.

BTW I still buy 3rd party D&D v3.5 d20 stuff to add to my resource libray. I am hoping that BRP will begin to produce resource material to support this awesome system, and remember please offer stuff in "printed" format!

Penn

[rust]

While D&D 4.0 will most probably remain at the top of the RPG food chain,

it seems to me that its community will be smaller - perhaps much smaller -

than the communities of previous versions of D&D.

Over here the German edition of D&D 4.0 has been terminated (for various

reasons) after the core rulebooks were published and the game really was

not doing as well as expected, while the number of people interested in

BRP is continually growing.

Of course, BRP will not replace D&D, but there seems to be a very good

chance to win over quite a lot of gamers who are disappointed by D&D

and therefore willing to try something else.

[Nightshade]

Surely we can rule out 'wishful thinking' from a D&Der of 30+ years standing.

Not if he dislikes 4e. There are plenty of longstanding D&D players who do, just as there were 1e and 2e fans who hated 3e and were busy trying to tell themselves its a failure.

To say "D&D4 has failed" may be overstatement, but if we can read between the lines and see a group of 7 experienced D&D GM's each with their own groups giving D&D4 the Thumbs Down and looking for something else...

...what better evidence do you need that it's simply the truth?

The market. I knew plenty of people who bailed on D&D when AD&D came out, but it hardly led to the downfall of the line. As long as the books are selling well enough to make a company like Hasbro enough money to justify continuing to make them, any discussion of the "failure" of the line is, well, silly.

[Nightshade]

Of course, BRP will not replace D&D, but there seems to be a very good

chance to win over quite a lot of gamers who are disappointed by D&D

and therefore willing to try something else.

The problem is that even those bailing won't be likely looking for something like BRP, or they already would have been; the differences between 3e and BRP were already about as large as the differences between BRP and 4e. The kind of people prone to being attracted to the kind of game experience BRP gives weren't for the most part the kind that were going to be longstanding D&D fans anyway (unless they'd simply not been exposed to other games at all previously); the kind that really liked the D&D 3e experience and earlier are more likely to hop to other heroic-style games and/or other class and level games--True20, say.

[rust]

As long as the books are selling well enough to make a company like Hasbro enough money to justify continuing to make them, any discussion of the "failure" of the line is, well, silly.

Well, as mentioned above: Over here it has already failed - and Germany

has always been a very reliable market for D&D.

[rust]

The problem is that even those bailing won't be likely looking for something like BRP, or they already would have been; the differences between 3e and BRP were already about as large as the differences between BRP and 4e.

It depends on where you live, I think. Here in Germany the existence of the

new BRP makes a difference, because until then there were a number of

BRP-based games with different settings available, but not BRP as a generic system.