Why is BRP not that popular?

[Alex Sandoval]

I think BRP is suited for a gritty, realistic and unheroic gaming style but many gamers prefer the opposite. I mean they like to kill their enemies but not to be killed by them. They like to find their sword+4 vs. giant rats and they like to get 100 XP for every giant rat they are able to kill with it. They prefer cheesy "game in game" mechanics suited for powergaming to realistic action like BRP offers.

I feel that these players are this way because they don't know anything different. That is what they started with and that is what is familiar to them. I feel that most roleplayers are of the opinion that you described out of habit not choice.

I don't know enough about the history of the situation around BRP but if it is as was described earlier then I feel that BRP would have been the main focus instead of D&D if they had better marketing strategy.

[Agentorange]

At one point RuneQuest ( the chaosium version ) was the other swords and sorcery game, especially in the UK and parts of Europe, but alas...well read Pete's history of runequest for the full story.

http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I remember it well. And it was not just one of those "distant second place" things you get these days, but it actually gave D&D/AD&D a run for its money at a time when there were far more books being sold than today.

I feel that these players are this way because they don't know anything different. That is what they started with and that is what is familiar to them. I feel that most roleplayers are of the opinion that you described out of habit not choice.

I think there is certainly an element of that, although I don't completely discount the attraction of flashy full-colour hardbacks which let you play a god. Supply-and-demand is not so much about demand as it is about supply. Marketing is everything. Hollywood has a well-known reputation for being ridiculous and unrealistic, and alternative sources can be successful. I think the power of marketing is severely underrated by most, if not all, "second-tier" RPG companies. Look at Traveller as an extreme example of a game which was once one of the Big Three but now exists on a website like this (Mongoose are doing a much better job with their licence).

Chaosium's continual web problems can't be doing much to help.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Vile

[josha]

For BRP to become more popular, we all need to help.

If you put links in your forum signatures, encourage your friends, and spread the word on your blogs; BRP will have a larger player-base in no time!

[rust]

I may well be wrong, but I sometimes have the impression that the preferred

style of roleplaying games follows the same trends as literature and movies do,

and therefore changes over time.

In the first phase I can remember, the successful literature and movies of the

time before about 1950, the protagonists almost always were extremely skilled

and nearly invincible good guys who easily defeated their usually extremely evil

enemies.

After 1950 this slowly began to change, now the protagonists often were more

average people in unusual situations, and for a while the anti-heroes who were

underdogs who suffered defeat and barely survived more often than they were

the winners even dominated.

This changed again after 1980. Now the protagonists turned into nearly super-

human and invincible heroes again, although they did never again become the

truly good guys of the first phase and usually kept at least one of the underdog

weaknesses of the second phase, like alcoholism or a ruined social life.

If there is any truth in this (and I am not at all certain), the roleplaying games

could well mirror the specific phase's idea of what a "hero" is like, and for a ma-

jority of the current newcomers to roleplaying such a "hero" would be a super-

powerful character with some major flaw, perhaps with the characters from the

World of Darkness setting(s) as a good example - but the current version of D&D

would also fall into this category.

The "heroes" of Runequest, and BRP in general, would then be a little "behind the

mainstream", more average humans in extreme situations (see for example Call of

Cthulhu), more vulnerable than today's heroes, but without the "dark side" that

only became fashionable later during the "age of anti-heroes", after Runequest

was published.

As mentioned, I may well be wrong, but I suspect that one reason why D&D is so

successful and constantly moves towards more and more invincible characters,

and why BRP is comparatively less attractive to many newcomers, is that D&D

enables the players to generate exactly the kind of player character that mirrors

the heroes of today's literature and movies - and BRP does less so.

Ah, well, just some thoughts ...

[dragonewt]

I may well be wrong, but I sometimes have the impression that the preferred style of roleplaying games follows the same trends as literature and movies do, and therefore changes over time.

BRP Twilight...

Another possible reason is that BRP (and other tabletop RPG's) are competing with the "instant and visual gratification, not much thought or creativity required" nature of most Console "RPG's". These also almost always promise varying degrees of munchkin satisfaction (which is in line with Rust's comment regarding invincible characters).

[wbcreighton]

Visited my FLGS yesterday and observed 1 copy of the BGB and 1 copy of Search for Trollslayer down on the bottom shelf. The BGB was shrinkwrapped so you can't even open it to look inside.

The store carries the FULL line of MRQ2 and the remnants of MRQ1, plus tons of other rpg stuff.

It hard to get it sold when it isn't really out there for sale. Lack of sales equates to lack of popularity.

See the pic below for an idea of the amount of stuff they carry.

http://www.imperialhobbies.ca/gallery_image.php?i=98

[Pnick]

At the end of the day it's all about a lack of product on the shelf.

[dragonewt]

At the end of the day it's all about a lack of product on the shelf.

How do you know that once it is on the shelf, that it will be bought?

If there is an equal amount of of several different systems on the shelf (with equal representation and presentation), will the rate of purchase be the same for all of those systems?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

How do you know that once it is on the shelf, that it will be bought?

You don't.

But do you know that, if it's not on the shelf, it won't be bought.

[dragonewt]

But do you know that, if it's not on the shelf, it won't be bought.

If a lot of BRP material was put on the shelf, is there a feeling that BRP would become popular? Or does the nature of the popularity of the likes of Savage Worlds and D&D give a sense that the risk is not worth taking?

[rust]

If a lot of BRP material was put on the shelf, is there a feeling that BRP would become popular? Or does the nature of the popularity of the likes of Savage Worlds and D&D give a sense that the risk is not worth taking?

From my experience it seems that BRP is likely to remain a niche product even

where it is easily available. There are now lots and lots of good roleplaying ga-

mes out there, and many of them are free, and BRP competes with all of them,

not only with D&D, Savage Worlds and the other "big ones". Therefore I think

that BRP can of course become more popular, but I would not expect it to be-

come hugely more popular.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Or does the nature of the popularity of the likes of Savage Worlds and D&D give a sense that the risk is not worth taking?

To be honest, I rather like my games to be at least unpopular, if not downright out-of-print. It means I have a nice, fixed database to work with without worrying abut the next Gregging ...

[RosenMcStern]

To be honest, I rather like my games to be at least unpopular, if not downright out-of-print. It means I have a nice, fixed database to work with without worrying abut the next Gregging ...

One of the positive effects (well, the ONLY positive effect) of Greg diverting his attention from d100 games is that BRP stuff is no longer prone to being Gregged...

[simonh]

One of the positive effects (well, the ONLY positive effect) of Greg diverting his attention from d100 games is that BRP stuff is no longer prone to being Gregged...

Because of course extensively using Glorantha as the default setting has caused crippling Gregging issues for Mongoose Runequest that have almost killed the product, such that you can hardly find it in games shops, unlike BRP which.... er... hang on a minute!

Simon Hibbs

[famouswolf]

This might sound a little...heretical, but it may be too little too late for BRP to regain lost ground. There are other systems popping up that do what BRP used to do best, better. If you all don't believe it, have a look at the newish Hackmaster Basic. Quite good armor, shield and parry rules for combat. An initiative countdown system that seems to actually be functional, and a very workable and flavorful skill system that looks more playable (to me) than the one in the BGB. Better opposed skill rules. Paradigm Concepts has a new house system with an innovative initiative system as well. These companies are also more aggressive about publishing than Chaosium, and these factors together spell 'bad news' for Chaosium and BRP, I think. Kenzer is about to come out with Hackmaster books whose quality is on a par with their Aces and Eights, so with nicer books, and a system as playable if not actually moreso, as BRP...you do the math.

[TrippyHippy]

Experience has shown me that the notion of what gamers find to be a 'playable system' is a purely subjective phenomena. I think it is safe to say that enough people find BRP playable enough.

The comparisons you make with Kenzer's Hackmaster and the like are slightly off base as they aren't really comparable products. You could make a comparison if you wanted BRP solely as a retro AD&D substitute (a la Classic Fantasy), but it caters for so much more than this. In reality, the comparisons BRP should always be making with are the Generic Systems - HERO, GURPS and now Savage Worlds and FATE. D20 is broadly dead as a unifying system now.

BRP's main selling points above these titles are that it is an 'original' (i.e it was the first universal, generic system), and that it's comparatively simple or straigtforward. A lot of gamers are familiar with it - especially through the association with Call of Cthulhu. You could argue that certain aspects of the system could be polished or modernised - although you could point to The Laundry as a title that does that, and maybe even RQII even though they aren't brand linked anymore.

For me, the major issue is still about exposure and 'shelfspace' to supplements and gamegroups. The major problem is that the RPG hobby as a whole is struggling and changing right now, and creating a climate that is difficult for every game business to make progress in.

[famouswolf]

I think what I was trying to get at went right over your head. Never mind.

[famouswolf]

One more try. Have you looked at Hackmaster Basic? It is no longer associated with D&D, and is quite serious as a contender. Believe it, the joke rpg status is over. It is essentially the same system (or a close cousin, in BRP terms as close as SB1 and SB5, perhaps) as Aces and Eights...you know, that prize winning Western rpg Kenzer did a few years ago? And which happens to be one of the prettiest rpgs out there as well as very, very playable?

It's not an issue of playability except in that HB is now as playable, but is also presented in a more attractive package which will be more aggressively marketed. And has the capability for being generic. And has a more dynamic combat mechanic with all the trimmings. I always thought the selling point of some rpgs being more generic and better able to handle multiple genres a bit spurious anyway. I think the end result for BRP is likely obscurity unless something changes. No matter how good a system it is.

Sticking one's head in the sand and pretending games like Advanced Hackmaster, C&C, and Shattered Empires don't exist won't change the continued decline for BRP. And the BGB is not the most attractive or approachable option on the shelf at my local gamestore even now.

That is all I have to say on the subject. If you still don't understand OK and 'meh'.

[Narl]

One more try. Have you looked at Hackmaster Basic? It is no longer associated with D&D, and is quite serious as a contender. Believe it, the joke rpg status is over. It is essentially the same system (or a close cousin, in BRP terms as close as SB1 and SB5, perhaps) as Aces and Eights...you know, that prize winning Western rpg Kenzer did a few years ago? And which happens to be one of the prettiest rpgs out there as well as very, very playable?

It's not an issue of playability except in that HB is now as playable, but is also presented in a more attractive package which will be more aggressively marketed. And has the capability for being generic. And has a more dynamic combat mechanic with all the trimmings. I always thought the selling point of some rpgs being more generic and better able to handle multiple genres a bit spurious anyway. I think the end result for BRP is likely obscurity unless something changes. No matter how good a system it is.

Sticking one's head in the sand and pretending games like Advanced Hackmaster, C&C, and Shattered Empires don't exist won't change the continued decline for BRP. And the BGB is not the most attractive or approachable option on the shelf at my local gamestore even now.

That is all I have to say on the subject. If you still don't understand OK and 'meh'.

I've read HMB and really don't see it as a competitor to BRP. It is just too different from BRP to be compared to it. Though it isn't the parody HM4 was, it does still have a lot of silliness in the quirks, flaws, spell names, and the ties to KotDT. It is also at its core class and level based, which BRP abandoned over 30 years ago. And HMB is a D&D-type fantasy game as far as the genre and isn't at all generic. Not that I'm knocking it, I think it may be the best at what it does, I really like the rules, and I would want to play it at some point, but it isn't anything like BRP.

TrippyHippy had it right when he said that the comparable games to BRP are generic games like GURPS, Savage Worlds, Hero, and Fate. Each is going to have appeal to different sorts of gamers, and are more suited to particular genres. They are all quite different and I believe each has its own audience.

I like to create my own settings, and the BGB is wonderful for that. I've always loved all the various BRP games, and I'm glad that I have a toolkit that makes it easy to adapt it to my own settings, regardless of what genre. I don't see how that can be considered "spurious". I've found that even with games that are tied to a particular genre and not a setting, that the genre is so specific and defined it may as well be a setting.

[pansophy]

Thanks for bringing up the generic point of view. It was exactly what I wanted to say. I have no idea why everyone puts BRP in the same boat with High Fantasy settings.

I haven't actually played BRP with high fantasy at all and I am not going to any time soon - because I simply love my PA setting and our SciFi setting too much!

Our group once set down and looked at many systems for our games: GURPS, HERO, SWEx, GDi/GD3, FATE, Mythic, KARMA and some other smaller indy games. Some just didn't klick rules wise, because they were too complicated. Others we tried and while they were fun to play, they did not show to be interesting in the long term. SWEx was really nice, but all these Feats got boring over the time to remember and the Powers were the worst thing getting bored by, as they are always the same and do not offer variety (except for the 'dressing'). And you had to have 'Fighting'. And 'Vitality'. Or you got screwed very soon.

But I am not judging the SW game system, all I want to say is, BRP is better for our group, because we DO like a system where Talents/Perks/Flaws/Hindrances are OPTIONAL or not given. We love a simple system WITHOUT different 'Target Numbers'.

And I as a GM love a system where I can create a bad guy within 5 Minutes to suit the needs. Without looking up tables and special abilities. Or Perks. Or Flaws. I really HATE these overcomplicating rules-exceptions.

If there is a special ability, why not simply put it into the description?! What on earth is sooo difficult with that?!

We are not playing BRP 'because we are sticking one's head in the sand', but because there is a REASON why we play it. And we LOVE it the way it is. And we can use this wonderful system for every setting we like: SciFi, Post-Apo, Fantasy, Historical, Horror, One-Shots. It is one of the most simple systems around, rules medium and easy to grasp for everyone - even people that have families and work long hours during the week.

Well, that's my story ...

[famouswolf]

I think any system can be generic to some degree, so I guess we'll just have to disagree. About just about everything except possibly that BRP is at its core a good system.

Now, I don't really like arguing about stuff like this. Have a good day.

[pansophy]

I am not saying BRP does not have any faults. But it is sturdy and the faults are easily 'house-rule'able. It is the system that works best for our group and we really have tried many systems. If you find it different and found a system that suits you better, that is not only OK but excellent! That is why there are so many systems out there.

BRP clearly lacks good advertisement and support. In fact Chaosium was never known for being 'innovative' at all. They reprint their CoC stuff time over time over time and sometimes even do not change any artwork or character stats. I find this annoying. 'Basic GM', 'Basic Creatures' are the best examples. I still like them, because they are still valuable in a way. But they could have done better, even more generic.

But that's how Chaosium is and always was - and I think always will be.

The community here is the real BRP, supporting the rules and creating settings. And I appreciate that a lot and even buy the Monographs I will never play - just because I am curious what people do and I want to support their efforts.

With a better marketing and good colour versions with a hell of some artwork, two or three supporting settings, I bet BRP could be up and running within a year again. Thing is, there are not too many gamers left to buy a Pen and Pencil RPG anymore. The hobby itself has gone down to a minimum, which is no wonder if you look at today's possibilities: XBox, PS3, Wii, PC games, etc.

Still, there are companies like Great White Games, which are able to have good artwork, a hand full of settings and colour printed books. And they seem to make money with it. But I think it is simply that Chaosium is not interested in being big in the market. For me it looks like they have a steady income of money and simmer their systems on a low level. Maybe they do not need any more money, maybe the work needed to do it is not worth it.

I have no idea why it is the way it is, but I still love the BRP system for what it offers: heaps of fun for our group.

[pansophy]

@Legion: seems someone has a very different opinion about "Hackmaster Basic". While I have no idea if the gut is right or wrong, it still is a bit funny to read.

http://kuoi.com/~kamikaze/RPG/review_hackmaster_basic.php

[TrippyHippy]

Having read through the previews and quick plays of Hackmaster, to be honest, I don't really rate it all that highly as a product. I regard BRP as having better production standards. Sorry.

I do like Castles and Crusades as a product, and would probably turn to that for a pure D&Desque experience (or maybe just for more action-orientated, rules lite play), rather than BRP, in the same way I might choose Traveller for sci-fi games.

But I still couldn't/wouldn't use it for, say, modern espionage, or near future or historical realism campaigns. BRP would still be my choice for that sort of thing. Beyond that. I flatly refute this idea that BRP is in decline under the influence of games such as those highlighted above. There has been a lot of discussion as to why the game is not more popular here, but it's actually doing OK, considering the economic climate all companies exist in, and it is continuing to expand solidly enough. I mean, if we were talking about the impact of a really popular 'new' game like Pathfinder, that would worth considering, but Hackmaster ain't that.

Edited January 17, 2011 by TrippyHippy