Why is BRP not that popular?

[rust]

Having read through the previews and quick plays of Hackmaster, to be honest, I don't really rate it all that highly as a product.

I also do not want to step on anyone's toes, but over here Hackmaster is usu-

ally seen as a parody of AD&D based on the Knights of the Dinner Table car-

toons, far more an insider joke than a really playable and playworthy game.

There simply still are better retro-clones of D&D available.

Edit.:

Oh, and supplements like this one do not really make it easier to consider

Hackmaster as a serious roleplaying game:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=14536&it=1

I flatly refute this idea that BRP is in decline under the influence of games such as those highlighted above.

I very much doubt that BRP is in decline at all. Since the "big book" was publi-

shed the number of supplements has been continually growing, and as far as

I can see they are selling quite well. So in my view BRP currently is moving up-

wards, not downwards, although most of us would probably want it to grow a

bit more quickly.

Edited January 17, 2011 by rust

[dragonewt]

Because of course extensively using Glorantha as the default setting has caused crippling Gregging issues for Mongoose Runequest that have almost killed the product, such that you can hardly find it in games shops, unlike BRP which.... er... hang on a minute!

On the Gloranthan side, at the end of the Second Age, it all goes away. Perhaps as if it never existed (I am guessing that this (combined with some form of agreement) is why Greg is not so concerned about this version of Glorantha, and hence not inclined to impose any Gregging).

Unless at some stage the Third Age is retcon'ed, as George Lucas has done with some parts of episodes 4, 5 and 6 of Star Wars (in the wake of episodes 1, 2 and 3).

Edited January 17, 2011 by dragonewt

[RosenMcStern]

Because of course extensively using Glorantha as the default setting has caused crippling Gregging issues for Mongoose Runequest that have almost killed the product, such that you can hardly find it in games shops, unlike BRP which.... er... hang on a minute!

Simon, since when is Mongoose RuneQuest a non-D100 game? The facts you are pointing out are in perfect agreement with what I said

That is all I have to say on the subject. If you still don't understand OK and 'meh'.

Legion, I think that saying you do not understand to people who do not agree with you is an unpleasant way of endorsing one's opinion. It sounds dangerously similar to "If you do not agree with me you must not be so smart". Do you ever consider that your ideas could be wrong, rather than misunderstood?

Just to leave the ground of opinion and enter that of hard, verifiable fact: the percentage share of sales on DriveThruRPG is a good indicator of a product popularity. You can determine how well a product sold on DriveThru by looking at the "medals" the product has.

Hackmaster Basic has copper medal on DriveThru. Please check the status of, say, the BRP gold book, the Mongoose RuneQuest line, or the BRP supplements. Rome, for instance is Silver Medal, like MRQ and others, and it is a mere supplement. A product that has more "medals" than BRP is certainly Savage Worlds, which is its real competitor nowadays - but has different strengths and weaknesses.

Now, there is nothing wrong in you thinking that Hackmaster is better than BRP and will eventually outshadow it. But the hard evidence points towards another direction.

[rust]

. Please check the status of, say, the BRP gold book, the Mongoose RuneQuest line, or the BRP supplements.

Even The Laundry, published only recently, now is a "silver medalist" on DTRPG.

[Thalaba]

I know this isn't scientific, but - observing things at RPG.net, which is a pretty well rounded community as far as taste in games goes, BRP and Savage Worlds usually seem to be pretty much neck-in-neck as far as popularity goes in the 'what's your favourite' or 'what's the best' polls.

Lately, BRP supplements like The Laundry and Chronicle are getting a lot of attention.

Runequest in general, and specifically the latest iteration, almost seems to be an 'RPG.net darling' these days.

The system hasn't changed one bit since this thread was started, and yet BRP seems more popular now than it did a year or two ago. All that's changed is quality material put out to get people's imaginations flowing and get them excited.

For further evidence, look at this board. When I joined it was pretty much only grognards around here. Now I see a lot of new blood, and people saying they're new to BRP. These are all good things. Far from being marginalized by other games, I'd say BRP is growing at a reasonable rate.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Thalaba

[RosenMcStern]

Well, RPG.net may be a little biased because it is run by a Chaosium former employee

But your analysis is correct, IMO. It is regaining ground. Maybe it will not be back in the #2 position it had among RPGs at the starto of the 80s, but it is alive and kicking. And I am proud to have been part of the process.

[Rognar]

I am a recent convert to BRP. Although I played some Call of Cthulhu back in the 90s, I have been pretty much exclusively playing D&D 3.x/Pathfinder for most of the last decade. What brought me back to the d100 system was a desire to get away from the medieval superheroes games that inevitably result from the class-and-level design. While BRP is a great game, I can see how it might be a bit intimidating for new players. The BGB is a monster, with far too many optional and alternative rule systems. Contrast that with RuneQuest II by Mongoose, with its tightened up rules and I could see a new player with an interest in the d100 game engine choosing MRQII over BRP. I chose the latter because I already had some famiarity with the system and I really wanted a generic game, but I suspect I may not represent the normal profile of a potential new player. So one thing I would suggest that might help BRP is a streamlined version of the rules, more substantial than the free quick-start game, in that it should include magic and psychic powers (though not necessarily mutations, sorcery or super powers), but less weighed down with optional rules.

I think the imminent arrival of Chronicles of Future Earth is also a step in the right direction. Unlike CoC and RQ, BRP doesn't really have a signature setting. There are a lot of monographs and many of them are quite good, but I think a supported setting with multiple supplements helps a lot to inform gamers of what a game system can do. I know from my own experience that it was my interest in CoFE that drew my attention back to BRP.

[heathd666]

first let me say i know virtually nothing about chaosium basic role playing, i have played call of cthulhu at variouse times here and there since the early 90's and thats as far as it goes. i recently picked up the chaosium basic role playing book from amazon and let me say i had mixed reviews about it. it is massive. i guess i should start out by first explaining my purpose here.

i come from a background where i started out with palladium fantasy role playing. from there i went to d & d and ad&d. i switched to 7th sea and i played shadowrun 2nd and 3rd edition and finally 4th edition played lots of classic deadlands and of course old world of darkness and new world of darkness. 4 years ago i decided to try to create my own rpg as i was dissatisfied with what was available. i was looking for a game that was quick and easy to play ( i have 3 kids all in their teens atm but they have all played rpg's and for me it was important that they try it and as they were young it required a easy and simple game) not to mention my mind doesnt learn things as quick as it used to in my 20's. i also wanted a level less game preferably with merits/flaws or edges/hindrances. i didnt have much success probably due to my lack of patience. i was turned on to savage worlds. ive played faithfully for the last 3 years or so. its a great system for conventions and short campaigns but overall i dont like it for long term. i have also found, its probably for my incessive drive to perfection, that since it evolves around miniatures i have found a large portion of my creative juices being put towards the preparation of map tiles, miniatures prep and such, enough so that im frustrated by it and have been looking for another generic system.

so that is where i am at present. i bought the big basic role playing book and i must say am very intimidated by it. it has so much info in it and to me it seems like it isnt organized very well. well let me rephrase it, it seems like everything from several settings books has been copy and pasted into it. please before you critizice me let me reiterate that i dont know much about this system but since this thread is on why the system is un popular i would share my first hand experience. to me it seemed that anything that for example had to do with spells and casting was all put into the magic system. what i mean by this is that it has tons of options and information but at some places it doesnt blend in with the other info so it seemed to me that it was cut and pasted from other info and put into there. its not that it isnt good info it just to me seemed a little ....flavorless or it didnt quiet fit in with it all.

when i pick up a book i usually have done some research and gotten a little background about it before i plunk down the cash. i did the same with this book and got mixed reviews as i would expect. on this board and from die hard chaosium fans it was the greatest thing since pb and jelly. i bought it anyway and after browsing through it am very intimidated. i kind of expected it to be laid out similiar to savage worlds and was a bit over whelmed by all the info. i put it down and havnt touched it for the last couple weeks but i decided to try it out so i recently bought classic fantasy for brp, am waiting to get it in the mail but i figure that its a fair way to try the system out.

im not trying to say that savage worlds was a better system but i am saying that it seemd to be put together easier for me to understand. i generally dont post things on forums criticising a system without first having a solution for the particular problem. so the solution im suggesting is if it was organized a little better that it would not be so intimidating for people to pick up.

im in indianapolis indiana and we have 6 local gaming stores within 20 minutes here that i know of and not a single one had the chaosium basic role playing game book. most of them said they could order it but the only chaosium product that only 2 of them had was call of cthulhu. im really looking forward to trying the classic role playing book out and ill try to let yall know my thoughts about the format and book itself perphaps here or in the appropriate forum section.

at the moment pathfinder is so big that at a local gaming convention that had 12 pages of events (30+ events were all pathfinder). savage worlds was not even on there and there were only 3 call of cthulhu games. 2 years ago if i hosted a savage worlds game i had a full table (10 to 12 people) and was turning people away, but in the last 6 mnths i can barely get 3 or 4 people for a savage worlds game. so i dont believe that all of the problems with brp popularity is due to the format of books etc, as other people have posted alot has to do with public popularity and at the moment pathfinder is king

sincerely heath delashmit

ps i hope noone takes this the wrong way i am only trying to give my first impression of the brp book, to attempt to perphaps see why its not so big as other systems.

[Jeffrywith1e]

at the moment pathfinder is so big that at a local gaming convention that had 12 pages of events (30+ events were all pathfinder). savage worlds was not even on there and there were only 3 call of cthulhu games. 2 years ago if i hosted a savage worlds game i had a full table (10 to 12 people) and was turning people away, but in the last 6 mnths i can barely get 3 or 4 people for a savage worlds game. so i dont believe that all of the problems with brp popularity is due to the format of books etc, as other people have posted alot has to do with public popularity and at the moment pathfinder is king

Are you saying Savage Worlds has decreased in popularity or so it seems? That's interesting. Perhaps it's run its course.

[wbcreighton]

sincerely heath delashmit

ps i hope noone takes this the wrong way i am only trying to give my first impression of the brp book, to attempt to perphaps see why its not so big as other systems.

Thanks for the first impression Heath. I don't think your first impression is that different from many of the gamers who are new to the BigGoldBook, and I think it is a definite obstacle for the system. The free quick start rules might be a good place for newcomers to look, but I think that an introductory book that was paired down, and was more affordable could really help. Not sure if Chaosium has considered that or not.

Edited January 17, 2011 by wbcreighton
typos

[rust]

i hope noone takes this the wrong way i am only trying to give my first impression of the brp book, to attempt to perphaps see why its not so big as other systems.

You are most welcome to do so, it is always interesting to hear about their im-

pressions from people who are new to BRP.

I can well understand that the BRP book can be intimidating, and I think that

only my experiences with Runequest, Call of Cthulhu and some other versions

of BRP made it comparatively easy for me to use the book. A slimmer and mo-

re focused version of the book would certainly make it easier for newcomers

to the system to get into it.

As for Savage Worlds, it may well be that the hype has died down somewhat,

at least the number of threads dealing with Savage Worlds has declined on my

"home forum", too.

[famouswolf]

Well, I usually don't have this much trouble getting my thoughts across.

I don't need this.

[ragr]

I wonder whether BRP has created a new niche for itself as the "rebound" game for experienced players who are fed up with the power creep of other products. That's why I'm here and, it seems, a few others too.

If it can keep its older audience, this, added to the "new oldies" like myself, should be enough to see it hold a market share it thoroughly deserves; everyone loves a plucky survivor.

[heathd666]

@Jeffrywith1e

i would say yes it has definitly died down in popularuty at least in the gaming stores i frequent

[Agentorange]

=heathd666;36101sincerely heath delashmit

ps i hope noone takes this the wrong way i am only trying to give my first impression of the brp book, to attempt to perphaps see why its not so big as other systems.

No offence taken at all. I think perhaps for those of us who have played BRP in form or another for a long time we forget how daunting the BGB must look to a newcomer. There is a lot of stuff there. And if I was seeing it for the first time I'd be thinking " maybe not " The key thing to remember is: most of it is optional the, ah, basics are pretty easy. I do agree about the layout though, a couple of times I've thought about something 'oh it must be in with subject X or subject Y because it's part of the same area ' only to find it's tucked away somewhere completely different.

[pansophy]

The BRP BGB is indeed a massive thing. When I first saw it, i was impressed, later intimidated and after the third or fourth (!) reading, I finally "got" it.

For a beginner, my advice is to:

- read the Quickstart Rules first, especially the combat example

- completely ignore the Optional rules

- ignore the Spot rules and look them up if you need them during play (and keep a copy of the Spot Rules Index Box on page 212)

- for a Magic system, read the descriptions for each one and then decide which you want to use

- use the INDEX! It is extremely well done and helpful

- use something to mark the chapters and useful pages (e.g. adhesive flags) so you can easily find them

- download the GM screen from the DL section

If you read the book multiple times you will discover it is throughly cross-referenced and rules are repeated again and again. This is done intentionally, so when looking up a skill, you will also get a short rules recap (e.g. Dodge, Attack or Parry come to my mind).

This means a big part of the book is 'repetition' and makes it 'intimidating' in the end. But in the end it's really not that hard once you get your head around it.

I also found the Savage Worlds nice and slim and easy to pick up. But I also found myself missing a rule from time to time, because it is only mentioned once somewhere in the rulebook which I simply did not catch in the first place (Off-Hand penalty comes to my mind and +1 Attack for multiple foes attacking someone).

[TrippyHippy]

While BRP is a great game, I can see how it might be a bit intimidating for new players. The BGB is a monster, with far too many optional and alternative rule systems. Contrast that with RuneQuest II by Mongoose, with its tightened up rules and I could see a new player with an interest in the d100 game engine choosing MRQII over BRP. I chose the latter because I already had some famiarity with the system and I really wanted a generic game, but I suspect I may not represent the normal profile of a potential new player. So one thing I would suggest that might help BRP is a streamlined version of the rules, more substantial than the free quick-start game, in that it should include magic and psychic powers (though not necessarily mutations, sorcery or super powers), but less weighed down with optional rules.

This is true enough. My feeling is that having sorcery and superpowers are necessary in the game, to be able to represent genres like modern occult and supers respectively, although I would have combined the Mutations into a collective system with the Powers.

The major issue of complexity, however, lies in the character generation. They really have thrown in way too many options and a number of them are pretty convoluted in themselves. Points Buy Chargen for example, is terrible. Not only does it make a mountain of balancing complications, when a simple "spend 100 points" would have sufficed, but it actually penalises those character types depending on POW, INT and DEX stats - mainly spellcasters. Similar issues are found in the Personality stats bonuses (a good idea - but confuses you when it says it's only available for high powered campaigns. Why? Do low level characters not have personality?), and the finickety balancing and adding of skills based on Characteristics, working out how many skill points to spend, etc.

Now these are all optional, and I do recognise that they are there for the most point as reference to older, disparate versions of the system. However, when you pick up a more focussed version of the game -like RuneQuest II, they come across like a breath of fresh air. It IS supposed to be a 'Basic' game, and you kinda feel that they should have made a default chargen system - a teeny bit more complex than the Quickplay - and then had everything else put in as sidebars. I actually think that the approach they used in The Laundry was excellent, myself. I wish this was the default chargen system for BRP and Cthulhu.

That's my tuppenny's worth though. Oh, and combat has too many options too.

EDIT: All that said, I do recognise that the current BRP is still a spendid package, not least for educating people on the history of BRP games, and the current edition won't be getting a revamp for a very long time.

Edited January 18, 2011 by TrippyHippy

[pansophy]

I must admit, I never had a problem with all the options BRP offers. In my opinion BRP was meant to be a big toolkit where you choose your optional rules upfront, depending on your setting and mood. Then you work from there.

Until last week I never used the "Attack and Defense Matrix", always felt it was too cumbersome to look up every roll. Last week I tried it and was surprised how it sped up melee combat (a bit, as as PCs were lucky to roll a lot of special successes).

Anyway, I think if you have a look at page 383 and tick the options you want to use for your game, it can be pretty simple and easy. After a while you can spice it up by using some more optional rules. This is what the book advises as well.

If you want a more straight forward system, you can use "The Laundry" for Modern campaigns. It is BRP streamlined and eliminates some options and leaves you with a nice fast gaming system (a bit more complex than CoC).

If wou want to have a good Fantasy system, you can use RQ3 or MRQ2 and start from there - adding some BRP rules where needed.

I know it's not that easy as described, but I think BRP is a mighty rules book with lots of possibilities that some people might use while others don't. The difficulty some people have is they try do use every optional rule - and in some cases the system does not support this, some rules even contradict each other (e.g. pool of HP and Hit Locations).

The BRP rulebook is not meant to provide "Basic" rules, that's what the Quickstart rules are for. It's meant to be "Basic" as in "Basis" for a RGP System, a complete book including everything you can think of (which it doesn't, but it gives a pretty good start)

[ragr]

Imagine being a beginner and picking up the Pathfinder rulesbook for the first time. Or 4e. And those systems cover only one genre. I think BRP and the BGB are very simple when you stick to the basic framework and add the options (or not) later.

Pansophy's advice to a beginner is excellent, especially with regards to the spot rules which you can pick up as you go. And, as he said, the more you re-read the book the more it begins to stick.

My personal view on the presentation is that the BGB is one of the best looking books on the shelves and stands out amongst all the other products that are garish, overcoloured and unsubtle. I'd be quite happy for a stranger to see the book on a table at my house but I'd hide Pathfinder/D&D before they arrived. But, that's purely personal taste.

[TrippyHippy]

I think the term "Basic" can be referred to any way you want, really. I would note that the original Basic Roleplaying booklet in 1981 was a very simple set of rules though (more than the Quickstart).

I still think that the Character generation in BRP Goldbrick is too convoluted however. It's not that I don't want the options there, it's more to do with how they formatted them - so that somebody who wants a basic game of basic doesn't have to plow through it all to get there.

[simonh]

I still think that the Character generation in BRP Goldbrick is too convoluted however. It's not that I don't want the options there, it's more to do with how they formatted them - so that somebody who wants a basic game of basic doesn't have to plow through it all to get there.

I think the character generation summary on pages 22 and 23, which actualy present 90% of the character generation rules in a handly sequence of numbered steps, and directly page-references the more detailed rules, goes a long way to simplifying the process.

Rules summaries are one thing Chaosium are realy good at - nobody does it better. The index, quick reference sheets at the back, and character generation summary are pure gold.

Simon Hibbs

[ragr]

Totally agree with the above.

I came really close to using Rolemaster to replace my 3e/Pathfinder campaign before deciding on BRP instead and the RM rules required constant re-reading and interpretation.

[pansophy]

@ragr: I love the cover of the BRP Book. And the yellowish background ... It looks nice on my old desk, next to a special edition of Edgar Allan Poe's collected stories and Poems. But that's just me ...

[Pnick]

Not to get sidetracked, but I preferred the original 'golden era' cover rather than the one that was used.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Pnick

[Rognar]

This is true enough. My feeling is that having sorcery and superpowers are necessary in the game, to be able to represent genres like modern occult and supers respectively, although I would have combined the Mutations into a collective system with the Powers.

I certainly like Sorcery. In fact, I prefer it over the "standard" magic system and I use it in my own campaign. I just think that for a starter game, a magic system and a psionic system are sufficient. It allows you to cover the two main pillars of generic rpgs, fantasy and sci-fi. Then, a supplement based on alternative powers could be released that would cover super powers, sorcery, mutations, as well as things like shamanistic and divine magic