Why is BRP not that popular?

[drohem]

I love James Clavell's novels...

In Shogun, his most famous (probably because it became a miniseries starring Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune (1980 - go rent it it's most excellent - better yet, read the book - best of all, do both, it's worth it,)) The arrival of John Blackthorne, an Englishman, in Japan in 1600, caused immense confusion when the Japanese learned that this European was enemy to the other Europeans, and because the Portugese and Spanish, who were the only Europeans they had encountered at that point, were *Catholic* Christians, while Blackthorne was *Protestant* Christian, a distinction none of the Japanese could be made to understand.

I like Shogun as well. I read the novel (or encyclopdia! LOL) and saw the mini-series. It really showcased cultural differences and morals. I like how the Japanese thought them barbaric because they wouldn't wash themselves and forced them to take baths, LOL. Also, how his crew were executed and he was allowed to survive because of his status and capacity to appreciate and learn their culture. Yeah, it is great stuff.

[Nightshade]

I don't know that HERO would be in the shape it's in without Champions. Surely MERP had a little something to do with it also. I'm betting that the situation there is much like here; There are two or three well-known settings, and a handful of minor, even obscure ones.

Champions wasn't a setting; it was a genre. There really wasn't a coherent Champions universe for most of the life of the game. MERP was not a Hero product. In fact, Hero has never had particularly distinct settings until Steve Long got the line. Same, far as I can tell for GURPS. Its a little muddier with BESM because it had a lot of licensed products, but all evidence I had was they weren't the dominant issue with its fandom.

[drohem]

The World of Yrth is GURPS fantasy campaign setting, and it is unique. It mixes cultural groups from earth's past with a traditional fantasy setting.

[Enpeze]

My purchasing habits differ quite a bit from yours Simlasa. Intriguing background with a crap system attached? I would never part with money for it. In fact I end up buying systems just to see how they function. That determines if I continue to buy material for it. Great system with a setting that I am not interested in? Eh, I will pass on the setting. If the system and the setting are hard wired to one another I may pass on the system too.

I don't like Lovecraft for instance so I don't have any of the CoC material beyond a very old second(?) edition and a 5th that was on sale at Half Price Books.

Liked Moorcock's work but there were things in Stormbringer that I just couldn't stomach so I never did get much beyond the Companion and Demon Magic and I got those because I was looking for additional rules not settings as I had determined that I wasn't going to play SB.

I do have quite a bit of setting/adventure stuff for RQII/III, 2300AD and Twilight2K.

If the system can't meet my needs then I eschew the whole line. So catching me with the rules is of paramount importance. Second comes having a setting that I think is intriguing and fun.

I own alot of settings which have rules I dont like very much. Why? I just use BRP for them if I want to play it. Examples are Traveller, 2300AD, Cyberspace (which has Rolemaster rules), Midgard (a german rpg), Fading Suns, Blue Planet, Terran Trade Authority and some more. No problem at all to replace their mediocre rules and use good old BRP for them.

[Nightshade]

The World of Yrth is GURPS fantasy campaign setting, and it is unique. It mixes cultural groups from earth's past with a traditional fantasy setting.

I'm aware of Yrth, but I don't have much evidence its a special draw for GURPS players.

[drohem]

I'm aware of Yrth, but I don't have much evidence its a special draw for GURPS players.

I agree with you on this point. We only played in Yrth several times. All of the GMs in our group (I as well) just created their own fantasy setting using the GURPS rule system when we played it extensively.

[Nightshade]

And I should have qualfied that GURPS has had quite a few licensed products over the years, too. I don't know how much influence that's had on its success, but it never seemed to be the primary draw among the GURPS fans I've encountered.

[Simlasa]

GURPS having all those great setting books, and some of the licenses, like Conan, certainly caused me to buy a lot of their books.

As for Hero, I certainly don't think they'd be in the position they are if they hadn't had Champions... and yes, it's a genre... but to me that's splitting hairs a bit... people I know started playing Champions because they wanted to play superheroes... they stuck with the Hero system because they knew the rules and they didn't suck bad enough to drive them out (I'm not saying the rules suck by the way).

I know very few people that shop for games based on rules first... setting/genre second... 'let's go down to the game store and see if there are any new dice-pool systems out!' No, people pick up the game because the cover looks cool, it has an interesting name, the blurb on the back of the book sounds cool, the interior art gets their imagination going...

I can't ever remember picking up a book that looked great from me and then thrusting it back on the shelf because it was 'roll over' or some other mechanism I don't care for (not saying I don't care for roll over either).

[Nightshade]

GURPS having all those great setting books, and some of the licenses, like Conan, certainly caused me to buy a lot of their books.

As for Hero, I certainly don't think they'd be in the position they are if they hadn't had Champions... and yes, it's a genre... but to me that's splitting hairs a bit... people I know started playing Champions because they wanted to play

Perhaps, but I think there's a difference between a genre attracting someone and a setting. After all, BRPs had a lot of fantasy genre games, but that's presumeably not enough by itself.

[Simlasa]

I don't recall there being a lot of superhero games around when Champions came out... so it wasn't just another drop in the bucket the way a standard fantasy setting would be nowadays.

I'm thinking a game like Exalted is as popular for it's mix of genres as it is for its setting... and the rules are much less of a draw (I'm basing this on what I've heard and read because I'm not very familiar with the game)... it's also probably a big bonus for some people that it comes from White Wolf.

(Which, saying that, brings me to wondering what sort of 'street cred' if any Chaosium has... except for COC).

That said, I don't think there's any surefire genre/setting BRP could take on that would guarantee interest... except for being 'edgy and new and unique'... hah.

The current suggestion of a Cthulhu Rising setting seems like it might have legs...

[drohem]

I am intrigued by the game's genre or setting first, and look at the rules second. If I don't like the rules, then I toss them out and convert to whatever rule system I like at the time.

There was a game called Time and Time Again, which was published in 1984, that I liked because of the concept and campaign setting. It had to do with time travel. There was some real hard science behind the concept and campaign setting. Basically, the characters were time agents in a military organization based upon the French Foreign Legion. The rules sucked rocks. It used some whacky d200 percentile system for combat and tasks. I threw out those rules and coverted it into BRP/RQ rules and GURPS later on.

I did the same with the game Justifiers, which was published in 1988. I translated the genre or campaign setting into BRP/RQ, GURPS, and d20 Modern.

I also did this with the game Talislanta. GURPS was supposedly going to publish a licensed Talislanta game, but, sadly, it never saw print. So I made up my own GURPS version.

[Ombord]

We know that BRP is the best rule set out there. I was always wondering why it has not the popularity it would deserve. What do you think: why is this so?

Because in this game, you can actually die. Easily, accidentally and permanently.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Meh. There's only one reason for games to be popular or not, as the case may be.

Marketing.

[Al.]

I'd love to argue against that point. But I just cannot.

Witness Laserburn cheap as chips and interesting still bumbling along only just in print vs WH40K completely opposite on all counts.

It takes effort to unearth poorly marketted gems and not everyone has the time, energy or inclination to do so. Especially if something similarish is easy to know about, find and buy.

Al

[Nightshade]

While its certainly true that marketing and availability have some impact, I think its not a good idea to forget that the very things many BRP fans find as virtues are the opposite to many people. BRP is a relatively simulationist, fairly brutal system as a base; you can move it away from that, but its not a coincidence that outside of Superworld, that's rarely been done. Its also very old-school in some ways that aren't popular with some people (it only grudgingly supports a point build approach, for example, and doesn't have a disadvantage system).

Add those two traits together, and it flat out simply isn't what a lot of people are looking for. Any virtues it might have to their point of view get washed away by the lack of traits they do specifically want.

[Al.]

While its certainly true that marketing and availability have some impact.

Fair one. Your point is addressing the actual question posed. I would have to agree in general with the marketing point but specifically 'why no BRP love' you're damn right that some of the rules just do not fit what people want.

Al

[LivingTriskele]

Seems to me slick production (color art/hardbound books) gets people pulling the game off the shelf and leafing through it.

Marketing gets the word out, so that more people pull the game of the shelf and leaf through it.

When people get excited about it they add to it and the system grows, matures. I believe that a game system needs a solid backing of supplementary material to draw people in and get more people interested, survive the industry. More powers, spells, skills, genres, all that.

Then more money comes in, production gets slicker... more people pull the game of the shelf and leaf through it...

My bookshelf of shame is a 7-foot tall wall of RPG books. At least a shelf and a half is devoted to GURPS. I think Chaosium would do well to emulate what SJ Games did with GURPS. Just my two cents.

Incidentally, I game with a guy who used to work in Chaosium's warehouse (we used to play CoC there). When I asked him if he wanted to join a BRP game he didn't know what I was talking about. I was shocked.

[Dredj]

(it only grudgingly supports a point build approach, for example, and doesn't have a disadvantage system).

What's a point build approach?

Also, the disadvantage system seems like something that can be taken from any other game system and added to BRP--or just created on the fly ("the PC has a 50% chance of getting drunk"; or just say the potential of him getting drunk is '10' or any other number, and have him fight it on the Resistance table as a POW vs. POW sort of thing. And the higher the number means more character points).

Edited October 15, 2008 by Dredj

[Tywyll]

What's a point build approach?

Also, the disadvantage system seems like something that can be taken from any other game system and added to BRP--or just created on the fly ("the PC has a 50% chance of getting drunk"; or just say the potential of him getting drunk is '10' or any other number, and have him fight it on the Resistance table as a POW vs. POW sort of thing. And the higher the number means more character points).

I disagree (that it is that easy).

Advantages and Disadvantages are fairly standard in modern games. As much as I love BRP, I do find it to be a fairly glaring omission that BRP has neither.

Skill based systems are great at saying what a character can do. Adv/Dis are great for telling more about what the character is/isn't. Yes, they have their problems and depending on how they are handled, they can be abused, but ultimately, I think BRP would greatly benefit from such an add on.

Oh, and a better point build for attributes. Mongoose RQ has one (though I don't know how good it is).

[vagabond]

I disagree (that it is that easy).

Advantages and Disadvantages are fairly standard in modern games. As much as I love BRP, I do find it to be a fairly glaring omission that BRP has neither.

Skill based systems are great at saying what a character can do. Adv/Dis are great for telling more about what the character is/isn't. Yes, they have their problems and depending on how they are handled, they can be abused, but ultimately, I think BRP would greatly benefit from such an add on.

Oh, and a better point build for attributes. Mongoose RQ has one (though I don't know how good it is).

Does D&D have an Advantage/Disadvantage system? In any of its incarnations?

I don't recall seeing one. And yet, it is the most popular "modern" system around.

-V

[Dredj]

I'm going to stick by my comment about adding a adv/dis to BRP would be easy. I've seen quite a few of them, and they pretty much boil down to: take so many points or levels of a disadvantage, and add so many points to your character points. Take so many points or levels of an advantage, subtract so many points from your character points. It's always about evening out the characters with the rest of the group, while trying to add a new dimension to the role playing.

Personally, I don't care for them unless they are significant. Every person I've played with always played their characters with good adv/dis, and the gameplay always took the way they played their characters into consideration. If there were reoccurring patterns of behavior in the characters, the GM would just have the player mark it down as a trait. And the GM would throw in "temptations" and whatnot to get the player to use that trait.

[soltakss]

I really don't think that minor changes to the rules will attract many people.

Some people buy many different RPG rulebooks and if they like the game will run it once or twice to try it out. They may well buy BRP to try, although it's a bit expensive to only play once.

Other people like to play in campaigns and buy a rulebook and various supplements. However, whereas GURPS and D20 have multitudes of supplements freely available in game stores, BRP has a handful only available as PDFs.

The main way to get people to buy BRP is by putting out supplements.

[LivingTriskele]

I'm going to stick by my comment about adding a adv/dis to BRP would be easy.

Not that I have a lot of spare time, but I'm going to try to create a GURPS-like point-buy system including adv/dis. If anyone wants to chime in with suggestions feel free.

I agree with soltakss. Supplements are where it's at.

[Dredj]

Not that I have a lot of spare time, but I'm going to try to create a GURPS-like point-buy system including adv/dis. If anyone wants to chime in with suggestions feel free.

I agree with soltakss. Supplements are where it's at.

I like my idea of using Pow vs. Pow. You can take 10 or any other number of character points and it will be '10' that you roll against on the Resistance chart. If it's a disadvantage, you get extra character points back; maybe twice as many as was used for the disadvantage. If it's an advantage, the points used are simply gone.

[AikiGhost]

See page 5 of this pdf for some BRP d100 advantages/disadvantages rules I did for my d100 system a few years ago...

http://www.met.rdg.ac.uk/~sws99dsc/rpg/d100/D100System.pdf