Jump to content
hkokko

Trade and Markets in Glorantha

Recommended Posts

I am surprised that nobody mentions timber in the imports section for Pavis.  In my New Pavis the Lokarnos Cult has a longstanding defacto monopoly on wood and timber imports that can't really be brought into the city in any size without wagons.  Having given the matter some thought, New Pavis has big problems in this regard.

While it is possible to build a house using adobe, wattle and daub, cob, or mud brick, it is very hard to do without timber.  It is possible to use arches or slabs to build a second story in mud, but raising the slab will require a crane, and a crane will need to be made of timber.  In an environment where space is at a premium, such as a walled city, timber is hard to do without.  Making supporting walls from mud brick is certainly possible, but they need to be thick, and thickness is not desirable in this instance.  Working in finished stone is possible of course, but without timber, even that becomes a headache of improvisation.

One individual who notably breaks this mold is Barran the Monster Killer, who comes to Prax in search of timber of all things.  Of course he doesn't stop on the River of Cradles but heads upstream to find Giant Boot timber for his new vessel.  So we know that if you go into the Rockwoods there is timber there.  Of course the Rockwoods are pretty dangerous, what with all the broos and trolls and avalanches.

Now according to Glorantha Digest there are trees growing in the lower reaches of the Zola Fel.  This would seem somewhat insufficient. Considering that most of the nomads use either lances or bows, and the Yelmalios and Agimori use pikes, there simply has to be a good local source of long timber fit for crafting such weapons.  It is quite possible that there are plantations of trees specially grown and closely guarded for these purposes along the Zola Fel too.

Now the use of timber poses issues for the Aldryami in the area, but obviously nobody is harvesting the Garden.  As the Lokarnos cult is not sourcing its timber from Elf forests, the Aldyami probably don't overly care. 

 Pulling any decent sized piece of timber out of the Rubble may be worth the time, as structural beams, and even complete boards would be valuable.

In my New Pavis the supply of timber is a closely controlled resource and each consignment of timber has a fate determined well in advance of its arrival.  The primary claimants for each cargo are the Lunar Authority who earmark a certain amount of timber for maintenance and fresh construction.  Next is the Pavis Temple and Flintnail, who are responsible for maintaining existing buildings and earmark some materials for construction projects in the Rubble.  Ultimately, most timber will go to the carpenter's guild, but supplies of wood also get earmarked for use in some boat building, when reeds won't do.  Weapon hafts and items such as javelins and arrows will mainly be imported.  

All the major families, the Goldbreaths, the Eiskollis, the Garhounds etc all maintain carefully protected copses of trees, possibly something like red oak that puts on 2ft a year and is quite strong and grows to 40'-50'.

Obviously New Pavis doesn't stockpile any form of wood for burning as fuel.  For this they would rely on animals for dried dung chips and tallow for lamps.  It is possible that dry reeds will also be used, especially for torches.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually had some similar thoughts from a different direction, specifically regarding the nomad tribes but with a somewhat less dramatic scope.  One of the activities for more experienced members of many clans in my game was to raid for and haul back a wagonload of lumber primarily for making weapons.  A single good-sized tree trunk could supply a clan for years.  I never gave much thought to Pavis, as I assumed that buildings there were mostly made of stone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think weapons get handed down generation by generation, same for tent poles etc. Repair spells are the go!

From what I remember the nomads get their wood from the Northern foothills (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/praxian-overview/). Probably  once every few years. Spears are made from saplings etc and worked over a fire if not straight.

Pavis would get wood floated down the river and also salvaged from the Big Rubble.

Probably a special tree which grows in sacred areas along the river that provide saplings good for spears. There are certainly ones that provide arrows...

Edited by Iskallor
added link
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgot to mention that there is lots of Cypress in the Zola Fel valley. Water resistant and good for building and furnishings.

 

Plus the Pamaltean Agimori  have a special tree they use for spears. Perhaps these are in Prax now too?

Edited by Iskallor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Redwood elves probably trade timber. 

Elves from the Garden might trade small wooden items, but not really timber.

The Storm Hills have trees and they are not too far from Pavis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/25/2016 at 0:09 PM, Byll said:

Can you use wagons on the chaparral around Pavis? or are they only good on a dirt road like the one to Sun County?

Wagons are taboo in Prax and the Wastes except in a few circumstances. The Pavis Road is the major exception to this and it is allowed by the Paps. The major reason for this is the damage they cause to the ground. Caravans consist only of pack animals, preferably those covered by the Covenent as they do no damage to the ground, so Pol-Joni horses are preferred, also Issaries mules are okay. In the Zola Fel Valley, the roads to Sun County from Pavis are sanctioned. Other tracks were forced by the Armistace of Prax, these will disappear after it's broken in 1624 - the nomads will enforce it.

Edited by David Scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2016 at 2:37 AM, g33k said:

I'd envision most Pol-Joni to get most of their horses straight from Sartar, not driven from Sartar to Pavis to resell.

What kind of horse nomad imports horses! The Pol-Joni are horse people, they pride themselves on their horse breeding. No Pol-Joni Khan would consider a foreign horse. He has the best, bred by his mother, wife, grandmothers. They would likely only trade the second rate horses to outsiders. I'm not saying they don't breed horses for export, I'm sure they do. Likewise I'm sure there's an Eirithan preistess who has a few quality donkeys/mules for sale. I'm also sure that they'd raid for a particular horse for breeding stock - that's certainly an adventure hook.

Edited by David Scott
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Iskallor said:

From what I remember the nomads get their wood from the Northern foothills (http://www.glorantha.com/docs/praxian-overview/). Probably once every few years.

Woods/forests are marked on the Guide/AAA maps. Trees must be replaced, if felled. Most nomad migration paths will pass trees at some point. Don't forget bone is also an important material for them too. Shrubs also yield wood as well.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/11/2016 at 10:19 AM, Darius West said:

I am surprised that nobody mentions timber in the imports section for Pavis.

I don't think wood is that important for construction in New Pavis. Given the involvement of the Flintnail cult in the fabric of the city, cranes and other construction structures are not needed. The magic available is more than adequate to help build anything new and repair and renew the old. Have a search through Pavis GTA, I think most wood comes from the bogs.

Quote

Structural wood is rare and valuable, coveted by the rich and scavenged by everyone. The size of most buildings requires rafters to support the roof or second story

There don't appear to be any woodworkers listed in the Pavis book, but certainly stonemasons.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, David Scott said:

What kind of horse nomad imports horses! The Pol-Joni are horse people, they pride themselves on their horse breeding. No Pol-Joni Khan would consider a foreign horse. He has the best, bred by his mother, wife, grandmothers. They would likely only trade the second rate horses to outsiders. I'm not saying they don't breed horses for export, I'm sure they do. Likewise I'm sure there's an Eirithan preistess who has a few quality donkeys/mules for sale. I'm also sure that they'd raid for a particular horse for breeding stock - that's certainly an adventure hook.

They might steal Goldeneyes from the Grazelanders, though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, David Scott said:

What kind of horse nomad imports horses! The Pol-Joni are horse people, they pride themselves on their horse breeding. No Pol-Joni Khan would consider a foreign horse. He has the best, bred by his mother, wife, grandmothers. They would likely only trade the second rate horses to outsiders. I'm not saying they don't breed horses for export, I'm sure they do. Likewise I'm sure there's an Eirithan preistess who has a few quality donkeys/mules for sale. I'm also sure that they'd raid for a particular horse for breeding stock - that's certainly an adventure hook.

I don't see it.

They're a tribal/raiding culture.  Their mounts are going to suffer unnaturally-high attrition from the Lunars, from the Beast-Rider tribes, from the hard lifestyle of the Wastes.  If they can't get occasional new stock -- during visits to Sartar, trading with their relatives (who probably contributed to their original herd-stock, so it's not entirely "foreign" horses!) -- their numbers will be too fragile.  :ph34r:

Beast-Riders can capture wild Beasts to join their Herds (just as Native American tribes had wild horses they could capture); the Pol-Joni get a few extra (at least sometimes) from SOMEWHERE...  

OTOH, you're writing the new Prax book, so canon's gonna be whatever you set it at...  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, David Scott said:

Wagons are taboo in Prax and the Wastes except in a few circumstances. The Pavis Road is the major exception to this and it is allowed by the Paps. The major reason for this is the damage they cause to the ground. Caravans consist only of pack animals, preferably those covered by the Covenent as they do no damage to the ground, so Pol-Joni horses are preferred, also Issaries mules are okay. In the Zola Fel Valley, the roads to Sun County from Pavis are sanctioned. Other tracks were forced by the Armistace of Prax, these will disappear after it's broken in 1624 - the nomads will enforce it.

And yet there is a Lokarnos Temple in Pavis in the main market area (Public Neighborhood P-4), and another one in the Sun Dome.  Frankly, the Praxians attack other Praxian and foreigners without provocation if they see a credible opportunity, so I don't think outsiders pay much attention to their silly taboos.  Are there horse riders living in Prax?  Yes.  Do the Praxians do much about this?  No, try as they may.  They haven't dislodged the Lunars, the Sun Domers, or the Pol Joni.  Did Pavis go to all the trouble of domesticating Zebras to make peace with the Praxians?  Yes.  Did they sack Pavis anyhow?  Yes.  So can Praxians be reasoned with?  No.  So do we care about their taboos?  No.  So merchants just factor the risk of Praxian attack in to the pricing of the final item when they take it to market.  What do Lokarnos worshippers do when Praxians show up and "complain" about the wagons?  They circle the wagons and prepare for attacks.  I suspect that their wagons also have a few spikes on them so that a rhino or bison can't simply headbutt one over without dying horribly.  Praxian taboos are merely a pretext for an attack, the real reason is grubby profit from banditry. Based on their history, Praxians aren't "noble savages", for the most part they are religiously intolerant scumbags, thieves, slavers and murderers, and their level of morality is MUCH WORSE than that of a contemporary outlaw motorcycle gang while bearing some superficial similarities.  Lokarnos worshipers would stick mainly to the Pavis road like everyone else, and will do so with the protection of the Lunars and Sun County.  If the nomads come, (and they always do, regardless of what sort of animal you ride or cart you do or do not haul), then you come in strength with the main seasonal caravan, fight them, beat them soundly, complain to the Governor...again... raise your final price, and be done with it.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think wood is that important for construction in New Pavis. Given the involvement of the Flintnail cult in the fabric of the city, cranes and other construction structures are not needed. The magic available is more than adequate to help build anything new and repair and renew the old. Have a search through Pavis GTA, I think most wood comes from the bogs.

The simple fact is that you can't build the scaffolding necessary for stone buildings without timber.  I suspect that Mostali used bronze scaffolding, and sorcery back in the time of the old City, but today they will have to make do like everyone else.  Do you seriously think that the Flintnail cult is called in to cast "Support" or the equivalent sorcery every day of construction?  One of the rules is that the use of magic costs money.  Money that most Pavisites don't have.  Temples, fortifications, and official buildings (some at least) may be built in stone, but most people living in Pavis simply can't afford that, and the illustrations from Pavis supplements and maps support this.  Most buildings in New Pavis are not stone but adobe, mud brick, cob, or wattle and daub, manufactured from the mud and reeds of the Zola Fel.  You need timber for supports in mud based buildings or your supporting columns severely restrict your available inside space if you want a second story.  Given the well established architectural style of New Pavis from the artwork, they are using timber. Consider the illustration on page 65 of River of Cradles,  or all the support posts in Gimpy's on page 73, or the planked deck of the Temple Barge on 74. 

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Woods/forests are marked on the Guide/AAA maps. Trees must be replaced, if felled. Most nomad migration paths will pass trees at some point. Don't forget bone is also an important material for them too. Shrubs also yield wood as well.

Shrubs will yield short lengths of wood suitable for axe handles, short hardwood bows, and arrows.   Bone and horn are great materials for making composite bows, and even tolerable armor, but you can't get lances that way unless we want to retcon in some sort of amazing adhesive, that is better than boiled beast cartilage and actually strengthens the glued materials, like some modern "alchemical adhesives".  Otherwise we are back to timber.  Either way, you can't make a decent lance or spear without wood, and what do most Praxians take into battle?  Spears and lances pretty much every time.  Pikes if you are Agimori or a Sun Domer.  And heirloom spears are fine, but what do you do when you have six sons and at least 3 of them need pikes, but you only have the one heirloom pike?  Or when that pike breaks and your family don't know the repair spell?  As population grows, you need more weapons.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think wood is that important for construction in New Pavis. Given the involvement of the Flintnail cult in the fabric of the city, cranes and other construction structures are not needed. The magic available is more than adequate to help build anything new and repair and renew the old. Have a search through Pavis GTA, I think most wood comes from the bogs.

There don't appear to be any woodworkers listed in the Pavis book, but certainly stonemasons.

Strangely however the stonemasons are not building much in New Pavis, based on the illustrations and architectural style but spend most of their time trying to rebuild the Rubble apparently, if the cult write ups are to be accepted.  Quite a few things are not strictly listed and written up in New Pavis that would be required to make the city viable.  For example, we also don't have much of a write up about how Pavis supplies its population with fuel for their hearths for cooking, or where the stockpile of that fuel material is located.  I would not argue for wood as the preferred material, but either dried reeds or dung chips.   A city of 3-5,000 people would require a mighty big stockpile of fuel for their cooking fires.  Where is it?  Because that lack of fuel is a way bigger problem than the apparent lack of a Carpenter, given the number of undescribed buildings in Pavis.  The fact is that Pavis is a fantasy city, and most GMs and players don't worry about where the fuel for the cooking fires comes from. As with going to a supermarket, the goods appear in the market and the problem is solved, and nobody asks where they came from... until they do, and nobody knows.

I have closely researched each of a series of construction methods for stone, and various types of mud and clay, but inevitably they can't be done without timber, either inside as supports or roof beams or used as scaffolding.  Without timber you wind up with multiple 2m thick clay support columns to support a second story, and buildings that look a lot more like Mos Eisley than New Pavis,  Dwarf sorcery notwithstanding.  Who can throw money away on Dwarf construction sorcery apart from Dwarves?  Well, the Flintnail cult can earmark their spells for given work periods, but they are mainly beavering away on their own hidden projects, hence the premium price.  If you aren't a big player, you won't pay for sorcery, unless Pavis cult membership nets you a massive discount.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Woods/forests are marked on the Guide/AAA maps. Trees must be replaced, if felled. Most nomad migration paths will pass trees at some point. Don't forget bone is also an important material for them too. Shrubs also yield wood as well.

I suspect they could also get timber from the Stormwalks, even though Prax is in the rain shadow; probably one of the reasons Barbarian Town exists.

Edited by Darius West

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The fact is that Pavis is a fantasy city, and most GMs and players don't worry about where the fuel for the cooking fires comes from. As with going to a supermarket, the goods appear in the market and the problem is solved, and nobody asks where they came from... until they do, and nobody knows.

That's so true: in the modern world how does cheep food appear in our (super)markets? But you're quite right: best not to ask, especially about sausages!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scaffold if Bronze will still be around to use as would timber made ones. The wood won't be rotting thanks to the climate and there's heaps of magic around to make sure it stays good...RQ repair spells, sorcery and in Heroquest you just make something up: a charm that suits, or the use of a rune etc etc. Using your Stasis rune in HQ is far easier than your one use rune spell....

People all to often overlook the magic that is everywhere and concentrate far to much on our world for why things do or don't work. It might sound hand wavy but hey so what it is Glorantha.

Opilli worshippers/human masons would have the building malarky down pat by now. Plus there's plenty of ancestors and other helpful spirits to help.

Importing bamboo and growing it locally would solve many problems. Something your Larkanos merchants can organise with their Pelorian settlers.

Saplings that provide the 3 to 6m poles needed for spears, lances and pikes would grow in abundance along the river. The Sun Domers would coppice these and I'm sure settlers would get in on the market.

Perhaps nomads take them as raid tribute from river for or have oasis folk coppicing them.

Don't forget Arrow bushes.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Darius West said:

And yet there is a Lokarnos Temple in Pavis in the main market area (Public Neighborhood P-4), and another one in the Sun Dome.  Frankly, the Praxians attack other Praxian and foreigners without provocation if they see a credible opportunity, so I don't think outsiders pay much attention to their silly taboos.  Are there horse riders living in Prax?  Yes.  Do the Praxians do much about this?  No, try as they may.  They haven't dislodged the Lunars, the Sun Domers, or the Pol Joni.  Did Pavis go to all the trouble of domesticating Zebras to make peace with the Praxians?  Yes.  Did they sack Pavis anyhow?  Yes.  So can Praxians be reasoned with?  No.  So do we care about their taboos?  No.  So merchants just factor the risk of Praxian attack in to the pricing of the final item when they take it to market.  What do Lokarnos worshippers do when Praxians show up and "complain" about the wagons?  They circle the wagons and prepare for attacks.  I suspect that their wagons also have a few spikes on them so that a rhino or bison can't simply headbutt one over without dying horribly.  Praxian taboos are merely a pretext for an attack, the real reason is grubby profit from banditry. Based on their history, Praxians aren't "noble savages", for the most part they are religiously intolerant scumbags, thieves, slavers and murderers, and their level of morality is MUCH WORSE than that of a contemporary outlaw motorcycle gang while bearing some superficial similarities.  Lokarnos worshipers would stick mainly to the Pavis road like everyone else, and will do so with the protection of the Lunars and Sun County.  If the nomads come, (and they always do, regardless of what sort of animal you ride or cart you do or do not haul), then you come in strength with the main seasonal caravan, fight them, beat them soundly, complain to the Governor...again... raise your final price, and be done with it.

Exactly the attitude of American settlers (and pretty much the rest of the nation) towards Indians, who were being pushed out of their lands by invader forces and attacked not only the invaders but other tribes.  Sound familiar?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine most of the wood in Prax comes from the river of cradles. The bogs there are filled with cypresses and canes which will be popular among many people.

During Fire season, when the fields don't need as much attention and the bogs are drier, I imagine it'll be common to see parties going through the edges, harvesting canes and trees for wood to trade.

Likewise, I imagine the animal nomads will pick up what canes they find on the edges for use as spear shafts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 11:41 AM, David Scott said:

Wagons are taboo in Prax and the Wastes except in a few circumstances. The Pavis Road is the major exception to this and it is allowed by the Paps.

The Pavis Road is an unpaved Lunar military road, so during the Occupation it would be a source of wood - there are going to be few trade items from Pavis and surrounds worth the effort of taking back west (save for magical or historical artefacts from the Rubble), so having carried supplies to the garrisons, wagons might be broken up at Pavis and sold for a tidy profit...

'The caravan master says three wagons have been damaged en route, sir. It's the state of the road. He asks permission to sell them off.'

'Does he? We're losing too many. The Army can't afford this. Tell him to get them repaired.'

'Ah, sir. I forgot. Here's your cut from the last sale.'

'Thank you. Now are you sure it was only three wagons that should be listed as irreparable?'

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Darius West said:

And yet there is a Lokarnos Temple in Pavis in the main market area (Public Neighborhood P-4), and another one in the Sun Dome. 

The taboo is wagons on the chaparral damaging the already fragile surface. As I said, the Pavis road is sanctioned by the Paps and the zola fel valley roads are sanctioned by the Armistace of Prax (until it ends). The Sun Dome is independent and not subject to the Paps, but does pay their respects. As for wagons, elsewhere, they are subject to raiding by nomads are they are taboo (to the nomads).

The Lunars are recent invaders about to get they comeuppance. The Sun Domers are one of the accepted independents, with 14k adherents amongst the nomads. The Pol-Joni are an established Praxian Tribe with representatives at the Paps.

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

Did Pavis go to all the trouble of domesticating Zebras to make peace with the Praxians?  Yes.

Not Pavis. One of his successors, and not to make peace. Once they were a Praxian tribe with representation at the Paps, they were no longer Pure Horse invaders - the enemy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Exactly the attitude of American settlers (and pretty much the rest of the nation) towards Indians, who were being pushed out of their lands by invader forces and attacked not only the invaders but other tribes.  Sound familiar?

Except that Praxians aren't in any danger of being pushed out of Prax. If anything being the neighbors of the Praxians is a bit like being the neighbors of the Mongol Horde.  Really the Lunars are only interested in the Zola Fel river valley region.  They aren't setting up fortified water taxing stations at every oasis or mass killing all the Prax beasts the way the bison hunters slaughtered the Bison in the old west.  I wrote the piece as a means of putting forwards the position of any Lokarnos merchant travelling through Prax.  Ultimately the Praxians could choose to buy the timber they will use at a market in Pavis and they could trade a few beasts to do so, but they inevitably prefer murder, slaving and thieving because braves need blooding, and if you win, the merchants will be buying their own goods back from you.  Outsiders probably start by thinking, "Oh, okay, lets be nice to the locals and follow the traditions so they know we are friendly.  No horses.  No wagons.  Mules and Zebras only.  Hey... Wait a minute, they're still attacking us.  What did we do wrong?  Oh, wait, they raid other tribes all the time, and it isn't like they have horses or wagons either, and they don't even know us.  Or worse, maybe they are attacking because they think we know their customs and so will understand that raiding us and selling us into slavery isn't anything personal?  So maybe we basically won't care about their customs from here on out?  I mean FFS they use magic to give prisoners animal minds then eat them saying they are 'herd men', and somehow that isn't cannibalism and they aren't a pack of ogres.  Makes you wonder about the chaos sense of the Storm Bulls, doesn't it ?"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Except that Praxians aren't in any danger of being pushed out of Prax.

Four of the five Great Tribes have been virtually pushed out of Prax by the ascendance of the Sable Tribe due to their alliance with outsiders. The ownership of Prax is always unstable and subject to change as the tribes pushed out of Prax become lean and mean in the Wastelands, whilst those in Prax become soft in its relative wealth. In this instance the growth of the White Bull Society and events in Sartar result in disequilibrium as the Sables and their Lunar allies become weaker than their resurgent foes.

Edited by M Helsdon
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Not Pavis. One of his successors, and not to make peace. Once they were a Praxian tribe with representation at the Paps, they were no longer Pure Horse invaders - the enemy.

I am not referring to Pavis the God, but Pavis the City as a civilization, to clarify.  Of course it was Joraz Kyrem who introduced Zebras.  More importantly, did bringing in Zebras help Pavis the city?  Not a bit. Did having a seat at the Paps ultimately achieve much diplomatically?  No.  They were still the invader enemy. All that effort was wasted.  They would have been wiser to build up a stronger cheaper cavalry presence and preparing better defenses for the walls, and just face the fact that there is no meaningful peace with Praxians, only temporary alliances at best, and not too many of them.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The taboo is wagons on the chaparral damaging the already fragile surface. As I said, the Pavis road is sanctioned by the Paps and the zola fel valley roads are sanctioned by the Armistace of Prax (until it ends). The Sun Dome is independent and not subject to the Paps, but does pay their respects. As for wagons, elsewhere, they are subject to raiding by nomads are they are taboo (to the nomads).

The Lunars are recent invaders about to get they comeuppance. The Sun Domers are one of the accepted independents, with 14k adherents among the nomads. The Pol-Joni are an established Praxian Tribe with representatives at the Paps.

Not Pavis. One of his successors, and not to make peace. Once they were a Praxian tribe with representation at the Paps, they were no longer Pure Horse invaders - the enemy.

So you would agree then that Lokarnos merchants on the Pavis road could be bringing in a steady supply of timber and selling it at a healthy profit.  Because the Lunars will get their comeuppance in 1625, but the timber trade to Pavis will still continue well after Sartar wins its freedom back.  This does of course underline the unusual achievement of Argrath in uniting the Praxians against the Lunars and keeping them all on side.  Now THAT is the achievement of a superhero, no doubt helped a little by the Lunar sorcerers trying to drag the leading herd beasts into Pavis with invisible red ropes (KoS22).

Edited by Darius West

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Four of the five Great Tribes have been virtually pushed out of Prax by the ascendance of the Sable Tribe due to their alliance with outsiders. The ownership of Prax is always unstable and subject to change as the tribes pushed out of Prax become lean and mean in the Wastelands, whilst those in Prax become soft in its relative wealth. In this instance the growth of the White Bull Society and events in Sartar result in disequilibrium as the Sables and their Lunar allies become weaker than their resurgent foes.

Yes, that is utterly correct, but the current Sable ascendancy is still Praxians owning Prax.  There is no Lunar settler push into the Oases or the chaparral, nor is there a poisoning of wells or a building of fences, and there is no great slaughter of the bison like there was in North America that made the Native American Plains tribes' way of life untenable.  It is also worth remembering that the White Bull Society is largely composed of Sable riders. 

The true irony of the situation is that there is good reason to suppose that the Lunar sorcerers were hauling the herd beasts to Pavis on invisible red ropes in order to bring peace to the region (under Lunar dominion of course).  Then Argrath hijacks the process and uses it to bring peace to the tribes and bring the Jaldon prophecy to fruition (KoS22-23).  On the other hand, I can't imagine that the citizens of New Pavis were at all happy to see Jaldon Toothmaker back again.  I'm sure they all thought Argrath had betrayed them initially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It is also worth remembering that the White Bull Society is largely composed of Sable riders. 

It is? I'd be interested in your reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The true irony of the situation is that there is good reason to suppose that the Lunar sorcerers were hauling the herd beasts to Pavis on invisible red ropes in order to bring peace to the region (under Lunar dominion of course).

Tatius was hauling the protectresses in, and subsequently the herds to use them as fuel for his Glowline expansion. Peace would have been achieved by the extermination of the Bison and Impalas. Fortunately he over reached himself (and was eaten - hurrah).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So you would agree then that Lokarnos merchants on the Pavis road could be bringing in a steady supply of timber and selling it at a healthy profit.  Because the Lunars will get their comeuppance in 1625, but the timber trade to Pavis will still continue well after Sartar wins its freedom back

This depends on when the Lokarnos merchants were established in the city - since the establishment of the Sun Dome or more recently - I'll have a look later. Also importantly how many Lokarnos merchants. Do you think they survive the initial pillage of the city after the wall comes down? Are they foreigners, Pavisite's, or Sun Domers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...