BRP book too late?

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Sounds good. I have thought about it before, but always back off because the setting is so BIG. There is a lot of material.

My thoughts have been that SB1-3 would work best for Tal. For instance, it would be easy to differentiate Mandaquan and Kandequan (spelling) with a separate Attack and Parry skill. Other stuff matches up good too. Besides, that particular BRP game is as unbalanced as Tal itself.

Would we work on it using the wiki or just start a thread or series of threads like this? Or e-mail, or what? I have never participated in something like a game collaboration on the internet.

I say a thread is spiffy, perhaps supplemented by e-mail.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

First let me say...

My name is Rodney Leary... and I'm a TFTer.

Ok, now that thats out of the way.

I think the release of 4th ed. D&D is a good thing. I was co-owner of a hobby store before the release of D&D 3.0 and while role playing games were still being sold, they were only about 33% of our business. New people just weren't getting into the hobby.

Then D&D 3.0 releases and we literately sold over 300 copies of the player’s handbook in the first 3 weeks. This big name rpg re-infused the hobby, bringing in a literal ton of new players. D&D brought them in the door, but eventually, they get board and want to see what else is out there.

With the increase in RPG interest we saw increases in Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, WOD, etc etc.

This is a choice time for BRPers. Renewed interest in the hobby as a whole is a good thing. Don't attack a game they love and expect them to flock to BRP because it’s better. If something you love is attacked you tend to attack back out of respect for your beliefs.

Instead, use this opportunity to talk about BRP and what makes it different (and better).

For example:

D&Der: My paladin is 15th level.

BRPer: The game I play doesn't use levels.

D&Der: How do you know if your character can kick another characters ass?

BRPer: Just like real life, two boxers don't have 'levels' floating over their head. One kicks the others ass because he's better.

D&Der: Well you could gauge how much better one is then the other because of how many experience points they have.

BRPer: Oh, my game doesn't use experience points.

D&Der: ....

BRPer:....

D&Der: Then... how do... you get better at climbing walls and stuff?

BRPer: You don’t get better at climbing walls by killing goblins, you get better at climbling walls, by climbing walls.

D&Der: You got an opening in your game?

Like I said, I think this could be a good opportunity for BRP.

Rod

This is totally me too, after my Great RPG Revival of 2004, where I went from my previous AD&D 2e knowledge from childhood into 3.5e D&D. Here I am!

[badcat]

Kick a Tal/BRP thread off then. I'll be happy to follow your lead.

[threedeesix]

If you are commenting on my original post, threedeesix, bear in mind that I am the one reacting as you describe. And only here, in a place I feel about halfway comfortable with expressing how I feel. That day in the gamestore I just walked away. Believe me, that was not a time to discuss how BRP or anything else might be a better choice for gaming. Which is part of what really, really bugs me. I do not tell anyone they are stupid because of a game choice, although I might tease someone about such a choice; and of course that has been taken out of context by others occasionally, even on this forum. As for 4e or 3.5 being good for the hobby as a whole, and particularly tabletop rpgs of the kind I enjoy? I don't agree with that.

I most definitely was not signaling out anyone with my comment and was just making a blanket statement, and whether you agree with me or not is totally your right.

Rod

Edit: Damn it. This was my 100th post? I wanted it to be something spectacular.

[Conrad]

It has become a mindless habit, and it is mediocre.

That is my opinion, and I back off not one...tiny...iota.

It is also a fact that it is mindless and mediocre.

I wonder if there are D&D fans out there that are writing the same thing about BRP? I don't think most of them are even bothered about BRP right now, not with 4e just coming out.

In what way is D&D mediocre? Just because the majority of "mindless" gamers play it?

I've seen no end of griping about other peoples' games that either comes across as frustration or sour grapes that their beloved game isn't the most popular. Well, thats constructive, isn't it?

It doesn't help you find a gaming group to run BRP with, or encourage D&Ders to take a positive interest in BRP, to describe them all as mindless. They're not, and some of them run and play BRP games. Frustrated and impatient attitudes are more likely the biggest impediment to running BRP based games with these groups.

I used to run GURPS and the only group I could find, when my friends all vanished off to uni, were vehemently anti GURPS. They wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. It took me a year of playing D&D and other non GURPS games before they eventually came around to realising that my GURPS games weren't the ultimate blasphemy.

I ran GURPS games for them for 5 years on and off before I ran into BRP and never looked back. I'm still gaming with this group, and they're playing my BRP games. But right now everybody is juiced up on what D&D 4th edition is going to play like.

A bit of patience and a more tolerant attitude would be much more productive for you than frustrated name calling. Try it, it might even work.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

I wonder if there are D&D fans out there that are writing the same thing about BRP?

Nope. I'd say almost ALL of them have no idea what the hell a BRP is, unless you mean the sound of expelling gas out of one's orifices.

[frogspawner]

It took me a year of playing D&D and other non GURPS games before they eventually came around... I'm still gaming with this group, and they're playing my BRP games.

He has a point y'know. Galling though it is to lower ones standards, it may well be the only way. It just needs a longer-term view. Remember: "If you can't beat 'em, join (and subvert!) 'em..."

But right now everybody is juiced up on what D&D 4th edition is going to play like.

Hey! How come your guys aren't 'juiced up' on how BRP1 will play? :mad:

[frogspawner]

I think the release of 4th ed. D&D is a good thing... Instead, use this opportunity to talk about BRP and what makes it different (and better).

So, no name-calling - but reasoned persuasion. It'd be good to have the good reasons set out clearly, but matter-of-factly, without attacking anyone's beloved system.

What do D&Ders see as its virtues? (3.x and/or 4e)

What do we see as BRPs advantages?

Let me give another example:

D&Der: My paladin is 15th level... but he's a 3.5 character, so I can't play him in 4e.

BRPer: The game I play can accomodate him, with a bit of conversion - let's see, he'd probably have over 100% skill in his main weapons, 15 points of re-usable Divine Miracles...

or

D&Der: My 4e paladin is 30th level... so I can't play him anymore.

BRPer: The game I play can accomodate him, with a bit of conversion - let's see, he'd probably have over 200% skill in his main weapons, 30 points of re-usable Divine Miracles...

[Sunwolfe]

Hey! How come your guys aren't 'juiced up' on how BRP1 will play? :mad:

Great Merciful Blood-stained Gods...I'm so completely over the moon on how BRP1 will play 'juiced up' hardly describes how I feel !

Mad, I tell you, simply mad with excitement!

Damn the juice...full steam ahead! Let the nay-sayers and doom-ists wallow in their self-pity and remorse, their fear of the WotC juggernaut! We may be but a grain of sand in a machine, but we all know what happens when enough grit and grind accumulate therein! Huh?! Huh?! Shall I tell you?!

Shall I say it?

>:->CHAOS!>:->

As in CHAOSium!

Let the DnDers go weep in their YET AGAIN tweaked tweakedness

...while we few, we happy few, we band of brothers, sisters and other varieties,

For they today that shed thier dollars with me

Shall be my "brothah and sistah and whatevah" be they ne'er so vile...er, ugly...er, strange--yeah, strange. Ehem...

This era shall gentle their condition.

And DnDers the world or', now abed,

Shall think themselves accursed they were not "here";

And hold their manhoods and other naughtiness cheap whiles any speaks

That bought with us upon St. (fill in name of appropriate saint here) 's Day!

Muuhaha-haha-haha...argh--cough--choke--gasp:eek:!

Blood and Glory be for the bold and brave! Mount up o' rider and enter the fray!

Boing-boing, bububu-BUH-YAH-ING!

Sunwolfe :innocent:

P.S. Thanks to Bill S. for resting easy in his grave whiles I mangled his most poetic prose!

[Shaira]

Nurse! The screens! Quick!

My god, somebody calm that man down! Mind the walls... no! nooooo! Damn, I just had those whitewashed...

Anyone know a good drycleaners?

...

Nice one, sunwolfe. Had me chuckling. :thumb:

[RosenMcStern]

Gee! I missed the Stafford Publishing stuff! Thanks Jason for linking to it. It looks even more amateurish than my site . Greg is a man with 1.000 surprises awaiting.

And no, I have never been in love with SJ, as I am an incurable heterosexual. It is just a reaction to excess love from some friends of mine. BTW, did anyone notice that the odious, nasty bully character in "Explorers" is named Steve Jackson? Not a coincidence, I think :cool:

[badcat]

So what makes anyone think I haven't tried tolerance and subversion?:rolleyes:It rarely works with some of those guys. To many of them BRP is indeed an expulsion of gas. Trust me.

I stated my position, it stands. Better no game than even to admit D&D as it stands is a rpg at all.

Lets not :deadhorse:

[frogspawner]

Great Merciful Blood-stained Gods... <divine madness snipped>

Now THAT'S more like it!

[Jason D]

And no, I have never been in love with SJ, as I am an incurable heterosexual. It is just a reaction to excess love from some friends of mine. BTW, did anyone notice that the odious, nasty bully character in "Explorers" is named Steve Jackson? Not a coincidence, I think :cool:

I've had lunch with him a few times when my old company was going to license one of his products for a computer game, and he was surprisingly decent and quite aware of his unfortunate reputation in the industry. This even went so far as him hiring a guy specifically to run interference to keep him from messing things up with business partners.

Of course, naturally, he admittedly couldn't handle not being involved, so that guy was out, and in the months to come, a minor contract issue killed the deal. It's a pity, as the project would have been tremendously fun to work on, and filled an interesting gap in the marketplace.

[GerallKahla]

Great Merciful Blood-stained Gods...

Sunwolfe, I hereby vow to keep an extra pair of percentile dice at the table just for you!

Should you find yourself near the southern border of TX, US and LA, US give me a call. We'll play and shake the pillars of heaven.

I'm still laughing - the nuns are wondering what's going on back here...

Regards --

[fmitchell]

I'm sorry, and maybe I'm being dense, but I don't see how BRP doesn't describe well how a particular PC or NPC 'departs from average'. Can you clarify?

FATE and especially PDQ operate on a principle that any ability not listed is rolled at "average", since skills/qualities are bonuses on a die roll. (PDQ uses 2d6, FATE uses Fudge dice which are essentially 4d3-8.) FATE and PDQ also eschew the usual STR, DEX, INT, etc. stats; if you're notably smarter, stronger, etc. than most people, one of your Qualities (in PDQ) or Skills or Aspects (in FATE) will cover it.

Compare to BRP, where every skill has a listed "base percentage" even if you've never trained for it. (Except for Knowledge(X), Pilot(X), Speak Language (X), etc. where the possibilites for X are effectively unlimited.)

You can usually write a PDQ character's "stats" on an index card front, and a FATE character might take a half-sheet of paper. Apart from the BRP pamphlet, I've never seen a BRP player character sheet less than a page (although you can compress the writeup for NPCs).

:focus:

Honestly, if a D&D designer or WotC executive sneezes, the forums will buzz with speculation about what that means for future releases. Like it or not, D&D is the 800lb gorilla (and Vampire is a 300lb gorilla with eyeliner and silver jewelry). Anyone who plays BRP or anyone else will have to hunt for players willing to try something else. Whether BRP released a year ago or is postponed for yet another month won't really matter to BRP sales, which will be a very small fraction of D&D's.

[Nightshade]

I stated my position, it stands. Better no game than even to admit D&D as it stands is a rpg at all.

Lets not :deadhorse:

Perhaps then not repeating this ad nauseum would help?

:focus:

That said, I think the premise of this thread is fundamentally off; while a small percentage of gamers might well have been more likely to play BRP style games if introduced to them early, for the majority, they play D&D and its kin not just because its what they were first introduced to, but because its the kind of gaming experience they want. To think otherwise is really pretty much wishful thinking.

[badcat]

I'll repeat as needed. You don't like it, tough.

[RosenMcStern]

I've had lunch with him a few times when my old company was going to license one of his products for a computer game, and he was surprisingly decent and quite aware of his unfortunate reputation in the industry. This even went so far as him hiring a guy specifically to run interference to keep him from messing things up with business partners.

Of course, naturally, he admittedly couldn't handle not being involved, so that guy was out, and in the months to come, a minor contract issue killed the deal. It's a pity, as the project would have been tremendously fun to work on, and filled an interesting gap in the marketplace.

Unfortunate reputation is a bit of an understatement. Especially because the episode you are quoting confirms that his personality did interfere with the agreement.

:focus:

But this forum is not about GURPS/TFT and the personal attractiveness of SJ. Whether you like his games or not, this is BRP central, not GURPS central.

Except that I started my Italian review of BRP with "Hey, this is how GURPS should have been in the first place"

[AikiGhost]

I'll repeat as needed. You don't like it, tough.

What are you 7 or something?

[Sven Norén]

That said, I think the premise of this thread is fundamentally off; while a small percentage of gamers might well have been more likely to play BRP style games if introduced to them early, for the majority, they play D&D and its kin not just because its what they were first introduced to, but because its the kind of gaming experience they want. To think otherwise is really pretty much wishful thinking.

Timing is tricky thing indeed. While an earlier publication of BRP might have caused some to pick up and try it, chances are that they would have laid it aside when a new (and big!) shiny came along. Better would actually be to introduce a new game just when the D&D4th hype begins to fade, and restless players start looking around for something else. Then we stand ready with our modest BRP books and can run a demo game or five for them. Just make sure you know the rules and can run smooth game, preferably one that highlights the spots where BRP is decidedly better than That Other Game: no limiting classes, no levels, no level caps, the "you can try anything" attitude.

[Sven Norén]

To many of them BRP is indeed an expulsion of gas.

To some extent, I think that BRP may suffer from a poor choice of name. The acronym is second only to GURPS for poor sound, and the "Basic..." part makes it look like something you start with before going on to grander things.

[RosenMcStern]

Bad naming maybe. But BRP has a tradition behind it. Experienced gamers already know what BRP is. Just say "Basic because it is the system that CoC or SB builds on" and you are highlighting its qualities.

[Conrad]

I'll repeat as needed. You don't like it, tough.

We get the picture. Now grow up and stop behaving like a spoiled child.

[Conrad]

Hey! How come your guys aren't 'juiced up' on how BRP1 will play? :mad:

Cripes! I'd better explain myself then! I am excited about DBRP. However if it is like a fusion of Stormbringer 5th edition and the latest Call of Cthulhu rules, then I've been pretty much running that for the last few years. A lot of what I've read about in the new rule book I've already got. If I haven't then I've got some other rules that function in a very similar fashion e. g. psionics rules.

I'm am looking forward to seeing the robotics rules and the example of a giant robot. The environmental damage rules would be nice to have a look at.

But I often wonder why Chaosium didn't issue a compendium of rules using the Stormbringer system (sans background) as the core, years ago?

I hope to see a revival of interest in BRP,to the level of the days of my youth, when the top games were D&D, Traveller and Runequest.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Conrad