BRP book too late?

[badcat]

So, I was in the gamestore this morning. There were a bunch of...fans...of D&D extolling the 'virtues' of 4e, as if it were the only game out there (yes, I still refuse to call it a role playing game, but that is another story). I have to admit that I am wondering if BRP is going to be dead on arrival, now that it has been delayed until after the shiny, arty new 4e books come out. I am frankly wondering right now if trying to stay the course and start a group with BRP is pointless, if my involvement with the hobby is just dead if I don't join in the mindless habit that is D&D. Has Chaosium waited too long to launch BRP? Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

[ORtrail]

Is it bad that I don't really care what they play, as long as I get my copy of BRP? If BRP had been released January 08 for $9.99, would they have cared?

At best, with the BRP system "under one roof" so to speak, in current print, and with some measure of support material, I think you'd only get a minority interested in trying it.

BRP won't be DOA for me in any event. I think the next year or so will be a great time to be a Chaosium system fan. I refuse to have my excitement tempered by what a bunch of D&D fans think.

[badcat]

Yeah, but it would have helped a little if it had appeared a few months ago, anyway. Depressing trip to the game store.

[cjbowser]

I, and my gaming group plan on purchasing and enjoying BRP. We, however, have no plans to get 4e.

I stopped by my FLGS today when they were having a big 4e party. Heck, they had signs in the window proclaiming the arrival of 4e and there were a couple cars in the parking lot. Apparently, however, those cars were for the Korean Barbeque next door. The store was vacant, despite the 4e sign up sheet that said there should be a game going on at that very moment.

Oh, well... this area's never been that big into d20 for some reason. It's always been an RQ and Hero Games kinda town. At least, based off of what's played at the local cons and what moves off the FLGS store shelves.

[Aycorn]

So, I was in the gamestore this morning. There were a bunch of...fans...of D&D extolling the 'virtues' of 4e, as if it were the only game out there (yes, I still refuse to call it a role playing game, but that is another story). I have to admit that I am wondering if BRP is going to be dead on arrival, now that it has been delayed until after the shiny, arty new 4e books come out. I am frankly wondering right now if trying to stay the course and start a group with BRP is pointless, if my involvement with the hobby is just dead if I don't join in the mindless habit that is D&D. Has Chaosium waited too long to launch BRP? Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

My question, with all due respect is -

How can your involvement with the hobby be dead?

If you want to start a group playing BRP, do so. Make the effort and I have no doubt you will find some people to play with.

As long as YOU have the book, and some people to play with, it's alive.

[badcat]

Hey, Aycorn. Can't find anyone around here interested, been trying for a while. The advent of this new edition will make it harder, I am afraid, and produce expectations I am not willing to emulate. I think it is just a matter of me marching to a different drummer than anyone else around me...and I happen to live in WOTC central headquarters, so the influence seems to be stronger in the eye of the storm...

[AikiGhost]

Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

I don't understand this "we" business. If you have a group willing to play BRP with you how does the success of D&D affect you at all?

In my entire life I've had 5 rpg groups only one of which (the shortest lived) was a mainly D&D group. My policy is only to play with multi systems groups nowadays so D&Ds market domination doesn't really affect me.

[frogspawner]

Can't find anyone around here interested, been trying for a while. The advent of this new edition will make it harder, I am afraid...

Hang in there! I for one would be very interested to hear your continued reports from 'behind enemy lines'.

But what makes you think 4e's arrival will make players more loyal to D&D? Even WotC are effectively saying they don't think it is good enough (3.5, that is). Brand Loyalty should be at it's lowest ebb.

And what about the issue of character conversion? If it's true, as has been said hereabouts, that players are expected to throw away existing 3.5 characters and start fresh in 4e, wouldn't some prefer to keep their character? Converting characters to BRP might be the way to convert the players too...

(BTW, what do these D&D-ers think are 4e's virtues?)

[GerallKahla]

In my entire life I've had 5 rpg groups only one of which (the shortest lived) was a mainly D&D group. My policy is only to play with multi systems groups nowadays so D&Ds market domination doesn't really affect me.

There are areas where gamers are sparse and groups somewhat more . . . static. I had a Gaming Dark Age from around 1992 - 1999 due to a lack of gamers.

My current, multi-GM group is the absolute best thing I've found for this hobby of mine since the pencil. I treasure their flexibility and willingness to give new settings and systems a try.

We who have found "multi-systems groups" seem to be privileged.

:focus:

I'll have to say; D&D4e's release will (as the 800-lbs gorrilla dances onto the stage) cause attention to focus on it, certainly.

That's what Hasbro's pouring the time and money into - the media push. Does Chaosium have a "International Play Call of Cthulhu Day" like WotC's primary game does? If it does, their media push hasn't gotten the concept into my head.

(And if they do have something analagous, let me know! I write for an ink-and-paper gaming newsletter who's range covers about a third of TX, US!)

So, what we're dealing with here are a) kids who are new to the hobby and trying this out due to the media exposure, experienced gamers who are loyal to the D&D letters following their latest edition, and c) grognards trying out the system to find it's merits and incorporate them into their own Grand Unified Gaming System.

A) we can show BRP to and potentially score converts.

we can do the same as well.

C) would be interested, I think, in many of the facets of the BRP core rulebook for their utility. (Allegances, as one example. Hit locations for another...)

Competition will be tough while the media-frenzy is raging, but I think it will slow down a bit. We'll see if all those previously mentioned A's and B's will still feel the love when all of D&D4e goes to online-only distribution.

They might even learn The Grognard's Lesson; Once they publish a book and you own it, they can't take the system out of your head.

Hasbro will also have to respond to their fanbase's desires or loose them anyway. The push to online-only content removes the physical printing and distribution parts from the process of getting new for-pay content to the consumer. WotC is wise to attempt this to try and save that money. However, if the fanbase sours to the idea later and demands more treeware, they'll have to do something differently.

Yes, WotC is aiming for "the biggest demographic" with their changes - they do not focus on the long-time fan or any specific niche gamer with their releases. It's that nebulous, fickle section of the market that'll determine if D&D4e will succeed.

In the meantime, we can show gamers the BRP releases and get them thinking of their hobby in different ways. They are nebulous and fickle after all.

The target is constantly moving, but that's the way it's always been in this business... Should be an interesting ride.

[Enpeze]

So, I was in the gamestore this morning. There were a bunch of...fans...of D&D extolling the 'virtues' of 4e, as if it were the only game out there (yes, I still refuse to call it a role playing game, but that is another story). I have to admit that I am wondering if BRP is going to be dead on arrival, now that it has been delayed until after the shiny, arty new 4e books come out. I am frankly wondering right now if trying to stay the course and start a group with BRP is pointless, if my involvement with the hobby is just dead if I don't join in the mindless habit that is D&D. Has Chaosium waited too long to launch BRP? Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

How about that? First luring new players into your roleplaying base with the newest shiny module of 4e in front of their nose and after playing through it attack them with BRP!

[Simlasa]

I think the people who wouldn't try and enjoy BRP now that D+D 4e is out wouldn't have tried/enjoyed it before 4e was out... even if BRP was out months ago they would have skipped past it to look for more 3.5 compatible stuff.

It's nice that it only takes a handful of other people in order to enjoy a game... and I've met more open-minded folks, willing to try a new set of rules, than I have people who insist on the 'one true way'.

[Dredj]

There are new rpgs coming out all the time and people are playing them. Probably most of us on this forum started with D&D and wanted something more...thus we're now into BRP.

There's a large community of role players out there, and not all of them are old. I went back to college (I'm in my 30's) and I see people playing rpgs often. Of course it's mostly D20 and WoD stuff;-( But there will always be those who want to go exploring other systems.

Keep in mind that BRP has THE greatest (and maybe longest running) horror rpg to ever hit the market. At least anyone who's interested in horror will--and does--soon happen upon CoC. And all the supplements that are coming out--looks like nearly every taste (Historical, Fantasy, etc.) will be catered to.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

For me, BRP is coming right on time. Especially with threedeesix's work coming up. I've had a bout of nostalgia, where I miss the feel of how we played AD&D 2e, with more DM judgment, and less book referencing. BRP allows for that. A lot.

So, for me, as a person, I'm happy this is coming out to be my replacement for D&D.

[badcat]

I'm gonna keep trying, but I do have my work cut out around here...

I truly hope you optimistic types are right.

[Jason D]

I certainly wish the book were out earlier, but then, I suspect the people who want to play 4E will play 4E, regardless of what the alternatives are.

The game group I usually play with has two irregular members who told us a few weeks ago that all they want to play now is 4E.

In the past year or so, we've played BRP, Star Wars Saga Edition, Dark Heresy, Legend of the Five Rings, Boot Hill, Deadlands, Warhammer FRP, Battlestar Galactica, Savage World of Solomon Kane, and a few one-shots, but they're now just set on 4E.

So we haven't seen much of them lately, as none of the rest of us care that much about playing it as our weekly game. One other player will likely play 4E on a different night, with a different group, but it won't make much of a difference on what we play week-to-week.

[PK Games]

Thats pretty crappy. If I was in a playing group that one of the members was the lead writer on a new game I think Id be more flexible in what we play and not be insulting like that.

I never even played straight 3E (played other D20 games, but not straight D&D3E).

No intention of playing 4E at all.

[vagabond]

So, I was in the gamestore this morning. There were a bunch of...fans...of D&D extolling the 'virtues' of 4e, as if it were the only game out there (yes, I still refuse to call it a role playing game, but that is another story). I have to admit that I am wondering if BRP is going to be dead on arrival, now that it has been delayed until after the shiny, arty new 4e books come out. I am frankly wondering right now if trying to stay the course and start a group with BRP is pointless, if my involvement with the hobby is just dead if I don't join in the mindless habit that is D&D. Has Chaosium waited too long to launch BRP? Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

Whether or not Chaosium had beaten WotC out the door with BRP vs. D&D4E,

I don;t think the end result would have mattered much. The people that want

to play BRP will buy BRP. The people who don't, won't. It's that simple. BRP

really doesn't have the drawing capability to lure in that many newcomers,

mostly because Chaosium doesn't have the money or resources to out-market,

out-design or out-publish WotC/Hasbro.

-V

[Jason D]

Thats pretty crappy. If I was in a playing group that one of the members was the lead writer on a new game I think Id be more flexible in what we play and not be insulting like that.

Oh, I'm not pushing for us to play BRP... after almost four years of BRP almost defining my gameplay, I'm perfectly happy running other games.

I'm the GM of about two-thirds of those different games, which I picked to run, I should note. In fact, I enjoy running other games because I'm always in the process of learning new systems, exploring other game styles, mechanics, etc. BRP is the old standby that we all know and like, though.

The two 4E guys are among the least reliable players we have*, so it's no big deal. They said they wanted to play 4E. No one else was willing to replace the weekly game with 4E. End of problem.

* The least reliable member of the group is my former co-writer on BRP, whose involvement with the writing stopped sometime in early 2006. We've seen him exactly once in the last seven months of near-weekly games. He's famous for talking up a new campaign he'd like to run (he's a great GM, so we get excited) and then finding some new crisis or schedule conflict and canceling at the last minute.

[badcat]

Yes. It just would have been a touch easier to get someone to try before, and a good game already underway might have been an easier sell. This is WOTC/D&D country, believe me. Three meetups for rpgs, D&D with 600+ members, one with a couple of hundred, and a 'rpg' one that mostly involves D&D in spite of the name (and 88 members). And Seattle is home to a number of indies, including Pax Draconis, Sorcerer, HEX, and more. Aside from that you see some WoD, Earthdawn, Exalted. Ones you don't see much of are rules light and logical, like Savage Worlds, Talislanta and unfortunately BRP. Put notices up in stores and meetups for anything other than D&D, WoD or Exalted and its 'bzzzzzz', nobody home, pretty much. Hence my blue funk for BRPs' chances around here. Still not giving up, though.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Yes. It just would have been a touch easier to get someone to try before, and a good game already underway might have been an easier sell. This is WOTC/D&D country, believe me. Three meetups for rpgs, D&D with 600+ members, one with a couple of hundred, and a 'rpg' one that mostly involves D&D in spite of the name (and 88 members). And Seattle is home to a number of indies, including Pax Draconis, Sorcerer, HEX, and more. Aside from that you see some WoD, Earthdawn, Exalted. Ones you don't see much of are rules light and logical, like Savage Worlds, Talislanta and unfortunately BRP. Put notices up in stores and meetups for anything other than D&D, WoD or Exalted and its 'bzzzzzz', nobody home, pretty much. Hence my blue funk for BRPs' chances around here. Still not giving up, though.

Ah, you've reminded me of my old post about converting talislanta to BRP. I think I've figured out a fine way to do so! Thanks for that!

[badcat]

To get my mind off the other, how so? I am now thinking of doing that when I get BRP myself, or maybe Atlantis which is about the same thing with Morrigans version. Just for something to do. How are you going to proceed, I have been considering a BRP like system with the same stats and using the archetype scores as straight modifiers. I don't remember what was said before though I dimly recall something along those lines (converting Tal, I mean).

[Ars Mysteriorum]

To get my mind off the other, how so? I am now thinking of doing that when I get BRP myself, or maybe Atlantis which is about the same thing with Morrigans version. Just for something to do. How are you going to proceed, I have been considering a BRP like system with the same stats and using the archetype scores as straight modifiers. I don't remember what was said before though I dimly recall something along those lines (converting Tal, I mean).

I was going to design racial traits, and then use a career system (a skill package a la CoC) to represent the different roles the races play. For each race there will be a few recommended career options, but I like the idea of anything goes with Talislanta. It's so big, so really anything's likely in that world.

Obviously, some races (the Thrall, the Kang, etc.) have martial arts options. I'll probably think about whether I want to keep that simple with the Martial Arts skill, or design the different martial arts with different maneuvers. I'll be pondering that for a bit.

I'd be happy to collaborate and bounce ideas off of each other!

[badcat]

Sounds good. I have thought about it before, but always back off because the setting is so BIG. There is a lot of material.

My thoughts have been that SB1-3 would work best for Tal. For instance, it would be easy to differentiate Mandaquan and Kandequan (spelling) with a separate Attack and Parry skill. Other stuff matches up good too. Besides, that particular BRP game is as unbalanced as Tal itself.

Would we work on it using the wiki or just start a thread or series of threads like this? Or e-mail, or what? I have never participated in something like a game collaboration on the internet.

[Conrad]

hobby is just dead if I don't join in the mindless habit that is D&D. Has Chaosium waited too long to launch BRP? Are we doomed to WOTC mediocrity for the forseeable future?;-(

Do we have to sink to the level of badmouthing D&D? Why should playing D&D be a mindless habit but playing BRP isn't?

Please lets not have this petty name calling. All the energy wasted on it could be ploughed into something more constructive, like running a game.

[frogspawner]

Do we have to sink to the level of badmouthing D&D? Why should playing D&D be a mindless habit but playing BRP isn't?

Please lets not have this petty name calling. All the energy wasted on it could be ploughed into something more constructive, like running a game.

Yes. BRP is better than D&D, and it's a good thing to say so at every opportunity. In this case it also helps us sympathise with Badcat, beleagured as he is in 'WotC Central' amidst blinkered D&D hordes. The main problem, as I understand it, is no-one will even try BRP there, so he can't run a game. I understand his frustration. If only we could engage the D&Ders in petty name-calling, then at least they'd see there's an alternative...