Martial Arts expansion beyond hit/miss

[rsanford]

9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Trade you for Brisbane AU; it can't be worse for rpg exposure...

I might make that trade... RPG exposure in Dallas is great but Australia rocks!

 

[g33k]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

The thing about Martial arts is that a particular Martial Art is no better no worse than another or than normal fighting.

This is, IMHO, "sort of" true...  The thing about Eastern-stye MA's is that they tend to be harder to understand / oppose when you first meet them.  For example, when the Gracies brought their style of Jiu-Jitsu to the MMA world, they dominated for several seasons. winning 3 of the first 4 world chamionships.

[Mankcam]

8 hours ago, rsanford said:

I might make that trade... RPG exposure in Dallas is great but Australia rocks!

 

Not too sure about it 'rockin' here in Brissy, but there's are about five comic shops that sell rpgs, scattered over a population of about 2 million people, so yeah that's something.

Melbourne and Adelaide seem to be the places for rpgs. Sydney as well no doubt, given it's population, although I always seem to hear Melbourne and Adelaide more often referenced as a presence for rpgs here in Australia.

Well at least Brisbane is on the Comic Con circuit these days!

Edited July 31, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

The previous posters are on the right track regarding special effects for Martial Arts. Certainly adds alot of flavour and variety.

Another approach, albeit much more broad, is to just work out whether the Martial Arts style is primarily offensive or defensive in nature.

Offensive styles would probably just have the same effect as described in the BGB, doing double damage, no changes necessary. So something like Thai Kick-Boxing may fit this picture.

Defensive styles are more about protecting yourself, or disarming or impairing the ability of another to harm you. So in these styles it is more about the opponent's ability which is affected.

For these styles I would tend to make the effect mean that the opponent is at Difficult (half% or half Characteristic, whichever is relevant) resisting your maneuver, and if you roll a special success, then they also have to do likewise to resist.

For example, you might rule that Aikido or Jujitsu are known for the ability to use another's weight against them, so they may be considered primarily Defensive styles under these rules. So if you succeeded in a Grapple attack then it follows the BGB rules as usual. However if your roll is both a Grapple success and also a Martial Arts (Aikido or Jujitsu) success, then your opponent's opposing Characteristic is halved for purposes of resisting any of the Grapple Effects - ie: half STR for resisting Immoblisation, or (SIZ+DEX) halved for resisting Throw Target, of half Agility % resisting Knockdown, etc.

So I would just have two rules for Martial Arts: one for Offensive styles (attacker does double damage), and one for Defensive styles (halve opponent's resisting roll); that keeps things simple, yet still has a little variation for flavour.

If you are playing a game with a more specific Martial Arts focus, you could certainly make different offensive and defensive effects for each particular Martial Arts styles,  similar to the previous suggestions, but if going down this path I would definitely recommend acquiring Dragon Lines instead. As previously mentioned, if you are after Wuxia Martial Arts then re-trap the BGB Powers or hunt down Celestial Empire, as the hard work has already been down there.

Or if you cross over to Mythras, then combat effects are a big thing and already worked into the core system, and Wuxia effects are covered under the Mysticism magic style.

But if doing it with the BGB then I would tend to use my simple approach, or fiddle with the effects along the lines the others have already suggested.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Mankcam

[Questbird]

On 7/31/2016 at 9:17 AM, Mankcam said:

Not too sure about it 'rockin' here in Brissy, but there's are about five comic shops that sell rpgs, scattered over a population of about 2 million people, so yeah that's something.

Melbourne and Adelaide seem to be the places for rpgs. Sydney as well no doubt, given it's population, although I always seem to hear Melbourne and Adelaide more often referenced as a presence for rpgs here in Australia.

Well at least Brisbane is on the Comic Con circuit these days!

MOB, Richard Watts and Mark Morrison are three Runequest (or Stormbringer) related persons who are from Melbourne. (Me too but not so famous in BRP land ).

[Questbird]

On 7/29/2016 at 6:39 PM, steamcraft said:

It looks like The Celestial Empire is just as unavailable as Dragon Lines.  Seems like I should have had an interest in all of this 5 years ago. 

I dug out my copy of The Celestial Empire and had a look at its martial arts special rules. Each martial arts school teaches certain special moves (and only those particular ones) -- which work the same as Powers in BRP. That is they cost POW (Qi) to activate and require a successful Martial Arts (school) roll. These powers can only be improved by training with the same martial arts school.

[Mankcam]

The Wushu Powers in Celestial Empire utilise a character's internal energy called Qi  (which is represented by re-trapping of Power Points, not POW ). Basically it is using Super Powers using Martial Arts as the activation skill, There are versions of some of the BGB Super Powers, plus a reasonable range of new Powers specifically for the setting. So this is really the highly cinematic and semi-magical martial arts that we see in Wuxia films like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and House Of Flying Daggers. Which is a little unusual, considering that the rest of the setting is psuedo-historical China and feels that it could be played as a gritty realistic setting with perhaps a more realistic take on Martial Arts. Some great content however, it has alot of information for it's page count, and if you want to play cinematic Chinese Fantasy then then Martial Arts works well.

Dragon Lines: Guardians Of The Forbidden City depicts an Oriental High Fantasy setting, something not all that dissimilar to Journey To The West or even Avatar: The Last Airbender, and the Martial Arts ranges from normal styles up to magical styles ( wuxia -influenced)  Each style of Martial Arts covers certain attack and non-combat skills, and also grants a few signature moves for each school. These signature moves have two forms:  Techniques and Chi Powers. Techniques give the character special traits in combat (usually a +10% to a skill of relevance), or replace special success attack rolls. Chi Powers are additional moves only available to the magical styles, and work similar to the Wushu Powers from Celestial Empire, wherein they cost the character's internal energy, called Chi (portrayed by Power Points). They replicate some BGB Super Powers and also describe some new Powers specific for the setting.  

Although I love the attention to detail in the Celestial Empire book, the martial arts are more detailed in Dragon Lines and cover both mundane and magical martial arts styles, so if you have to choose then this is the title for the Martial Arts. However both books are really good, and work well with the BGB. I think they will probably be equally as good if ever republished using Alephtar Games upcoming version of the BRP system, Revolution D100. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

Just found this on eBay. Crikes I can't believe the price! http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dragon-Lines-Guardians-of-the-Forbidden-City-A-BRP-Martial-Arts-Fantasy-/172293710287?hash=item281d8161cf:g:FP8AAOSwARZXoiyD

 

[nclarke]

I double checked the UK eBay site and found a copy from a US seller at less than UKP20 mind you shipping was the same amount (UKP20) but with US postal costs that isn't bad.

[Mankcam]

That sounds much more reasonable!

[RosenMcStern]

23 hours ago, Mankcam said:

 I think they will probably be equally as good if ever republished using Alephtar Games upcoming version of the BRP system, Revolution D100.

I hope so, too. However, Dragon Lines, if republished, will probably not be D100. On the other hand, Gianni and I are seriously considering a new (and maybe enhanced) TCE.

[Questbird]

I found a copy of Dragon Lines for a reasonable price on Noble Knight games for a reasonable price, and I've ordered it 

[steamcraft]

On 8/7/2016 at 1:59 AM, Questbird said:

I dug out my copy of The Celestial Empire and had a look at its martial arts special rules. Each martial arts school teaches certain special moves (and only those particular ones) -- which work the same as Powers in BRP. That is they cost POW (Qi) to activate and require a successful Martial Arts (school) roll. These powers can only be improved by training with the same martial arts school.

Thanks.  That certainly seems like the martial arts as spells approach.  That is the direction I seem to be leaning.  It fits somewhat with what I have done in the past with melee weapons. 

[Atgxtg]

On 7/30/2016 at 7:17 AM, soltakss said:

The thing about Martial arts is that a particular Martial Art is no better no worse than another or than normal fighting.

They can be, depending on the particular arts being compared, and situation. But, much like with firearms and bullet caliber, skill is much, much more important in determining effectiveness. 

 

I could see allowing a martial artists to get a damage die based on his skill %, and then shifting the die size up or down based on the actual martial art and/or specific maneuver. 

 

For instance, Muay Thai probably has stronger kicks than, say Akijutsu, but a novice at Muay Thai won't kick as hard as a master of Akijutsu.  

[Gollum]

As a martial artist, I fully do agree. No martial art is better than another. What is important is the number of hours of training (the skill percentage, in BRP's terms). This is what really makes a difference.

Some martial arts are strongly oriented toward sport competition or art, though. They may be less effective than other ones, oriented toward fighting. Because a combat is different from a sport competition (no technique is forbidden, especially the most treacherous ones) and from an artistic demonstration (where the goal is to make beautiful moves while a combat technique is quickest and hardest to see).

Having said that, as long as the goal is the same (combat), the style doesn't matter.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Now, let's go back to the game... Here is what I wanted to mean about generic maneuvers which can be applied to any martial art (with or without weapon).

The big golden book has got two.

• Fight defensively (page 191): forfeit any offensive action; you get a second dodge without the -30% penalty.
• Knock out attack (page 226): make a difficult attack to try to knock out the target ...

Some others could be added (strongly inspired by GURPS).

• Fight offensively: forfeit any defensive action; you get a second attack.
• Fight defensively, second option: forfeit any offensive action; you get only one defense, but with a +30% bonus.
• Fight offensively, second option: forfeit any defensive action; you get only one attack, but with a +30% bonus.
• Fight offensively, third option: forfeit any defensive action; you get only one attack, without bonus, but you're damage bonus is increased by one level (you strike as strongly and heavily as you can).
• Fight deceptively (feints and any other kind of deceptive attack): choose a penalty to your attack; the defender will have the same penalty to his defense roll.

These optional maneuvers allow to vary attacks and defenses without adding to much complication to the game. And they are quite easy to use with any combat skill or style.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Gollum

[Atgxtg]

I think the fight defensively option needs work. The problem that I see with it is that the skill ratings in BRP are more diverse than in GURPS. Someone who has a significant advantage in skill can turn it into an almost unbeatable maneuver. For example somebody with a 120% Attack facing off against an opponent who has a 80% Parry. While 120 vs 80 is a very strong edge, 60 vs 20 is even better. 

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the fight defensively option needs work. The problem that I see with it is that the skill ratings in BRP are more diverse than in GURPS. Someone who has a significant advantage in skill can turn it into an almost unbeatable maneuver. For example somebody with a 120% Attack facing off against an opponent who has a 80% Parry. While 120 vs 80 is a very strong edge, 60 vs 20 is even better. 

Things may appear like that, indeed. But...

First, the guy with 80% parry totally forfeit his attack, which is a huge cost! All what he can do is trying to parry. If he does that several times in a raw, it means that he is not fighting anymore, but just doing a desperate attempt to avoid being hit (maybe because he has already been severely wounded and he is waiting for some friends backup)... So, would an expert doing that become almost unbeatable? It's not absolutely sure, but it still make sense (at least in a storytelling point of view).

Likewise, is a neophyte in such a situation able to parry one blow in two? It also makes sense, in my humble opinion.

Second, this option is designed to work with the other options, not as a stand alone. If the guy with 120% attack strikes again and again and notice that the one with 80% parry always parries his blows successfully, he will try to fight offensively and deceptively at the same time (+30% -30% = no modifier; and the defender still gets a -30% to his parry). The attacker doesn't risk anything: the other one doesn't strike back.

Ditto for the 60% vs 20%.

Also note that, despite of the fact that GURPS characteristics are rated on 20 rather than on 100, the problem (and the solution) is exactly the same. Deceptive attack is very useful to allow a skilled character to lower his foe's defenses. It also help solving the universal problem of combat between two guys with skill above 100%.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Gollum

[Zit]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

As a martial artist, I fully do agree. No martial art is better than another. What is important is the number of hours of training (the skill percentage, in BRP's terms). This is what really makes a difference.

As a modest martial artist, I'm with you. It is also a question of character and physical features.

The question is not so much to understand what actually are Martial Arts, but what you want then to be in your game. If you want to stuck to RW, the body is a weapon and there is no reason to have a mechanism more detailed than for any other weapon skill. Wth a sword, you can also fight defensively, aggressively, make parade-ripostes and so on. All this is encompassed by the skill roll. MArtial art is only an academic way to learn using your body as a weapon.

Now, if you want martial arts be a kind a superior power, then you need some special rules, stunts, powers, traits or whatever.

[Aycorn]

Actually, I did a BRP adaptation of GURPS Martial Arts you might look at.  It's in the downloads section.

 

[Gollum]

It is quite different from GURPS Martial Arts because, in your version, each technique is a new skill while, in GURPS Martial Arts, each technique is a bonus or penalty applied to a given skill. Karate is a skill, for instance, and Aggressive Parry is a technique which will be equal to Karate-1 if you didn't specifically learn it or Karate+0, Karate+1, Karate+2, etc., if you learned it*.

No matter. You made a very good work and it is a new approach of martial arts which sounds to perfectly fit to the BRP system**.

_____

* For those who don't know GURPS, characteristics and skills are rated on 20, not on 100. So a +1 would roughly correspond to +5%. Roughly, because GURPS is played with 3D6 and not 1D20, which changes things a lot.

** As far as I can tell with my modest knowledge of the BRP system.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Gollum

[Atgxtg]

On 8/26/2016 at 11:22 AM, Zit said:

As a modest martial artist, I'm with you. It is also a question of character and physical features.

The question is not so much to understand what actually are Martial Arts, but what you want then to be in your game. If you want to stuck to RW, the body is a weapon and there is no reason to have a mechanism more detailed than for any other weapon skill. Wth a sword, you can also fight defensively, aggressively, make parade-ripostes and so on. All this is encompassed by the skill roll. MArtial art is only an academic way to learn using your body as a weapon.

Now, if you want martial arts be a kind a superior power, then you need some special rules, stunts, powers, traits or whatever.

Good point. Come to think of it most of the "legendary/mystical" stuff that martial artists do could be handled with the Spirit Magic, rules, and the Ki rules from LotN. A martial artists with Ironhand, Mobility, and Protection up is going to be able to pull off some really amazing stuff.