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jajagappa

Windstop, the Waters, and the Skyfall

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We know from GtG and KoS is that with the Windstop Orlanth and Ernalda are dead.  Immediately a Great Winter began and everything froze.  The air is dead, the winds are gone.  "Children were not born, seeds did not sprout, fruit did not grow" and "All of Kerofinela froze".

What I'm wondering about is other effects.

1) The rivers of Dragon Pass.  No winds, no clouds, no rain.  And freezing air.  That suggests that most rivers in Dragon Pass dry up and/or freeze over except those protected by the Moon (i.e. the Oslir and the Black Eel - and even those would substantially diminish as their headwaters would still dry/freeze up).  The Malthin, Lyksos, Marzeel, Bullflood, and Minthus are all affected this way and most of the Gorphing.  Some tributaries of the Gorphing extend farther into Maniria outside the Windstop.  They might get some wind/rain by the air/storms sucked towards the Windstop, but my thought is that those waters freeze over or are sucked into the dead earth as they pass the Windstop.  Does that make sense?  And what of the River of Cradles?

2) The Upland Marsh.  Presumably Delecti can fend off the effects of the Windstop in his 'dead' waters?  This would mean that 'some' water can be found by desperate Sartarites attracted to the open water.  At the same time, this could just be a lure by Delecti to boost his undead population (and the undead may roam farther to seek the dying and bring them to the Marsh for 'conversion').  It may also mean that the Ducks have a greater chance of survival because they can get water and harvest weeds or grains from the Marsh, and some folk might shelter in Duck Point (if not occupied still by the Lunars) as one way to survive the Great Winter.

3) Choralinthor Bay and the Syphon River.  Fed by the oceans, the Choralinthor does not diminish, but may become saltier without the flow of fresh waters into it? Does/could it freeze over?  My guess is not, except near the land margins (the Rightarm Islands may suffer freezing when the tides drop, then the ice melts as the tide rises).  The Syphon, running backwards, would still flow at the start and likely still flows up into the print.  But it would be entirely salty now and everything along its banks would be contaminated by salts, as well as freezing.

4) The Skyfall.  What happens here?  This is a hole into the Gods World/Gods War.  I'm thinking that the hole might in fact expand and the entire area over the Skyfall Lake would be inundated by the waterfall.  But the clouds that normally shroud the Skyfall are gone.  That would mean that the trolls have water, and the water of the River would still flow down into Snakepipe Hollow.  I could see that the Dwarf might employ his tools to keep the River moving past Dwarf Run, and perhaps it has enough flow beneath the ice over it to reach the Upland Marsh.  Again, desperate folk might seek to reach the River, and even brave the horrors of Snakepipe Hollow to get water. 

5) The River.  Assuming the Skyfall still pours down and the River still has current beneath the ice at least to the Upland Marsh, does any water still flow on south past the Marsh?  Perhaps enough to reach Duck Point or the Wild Temple, I'd guess, but it would freeze over and dry up somewhere after that.  It would not make it to the junction with the Lyksos or Choralinthor Bay without the added volume of rain and tributaries such as the Creek and the Stream.

And what does that mean for the folk under the Windstop in terms of getting water?

1) Melting ice.  Fire (or Moon) magics are critical to melt what ice there is and draw water from that.  This may work at the start, but is increasingly difficult in Dragon Pass after the first season (except perhaps for glaciers/snow on the mountain peaks).  Probably still effective in areas like along the River or maybe in Caladraland (if water sources are found).

2) Summon water from within the earth.  Shaman and dwarfs (and maybe River or Moon priests or Earth Witches) can summon waters up from within the dead/sleeping earth.  May require a lot of dowsing/divining or seeking through the spirit world to find such sources.  These could be anywhere - under the Quivin Mountains, within the Dragonspine, by Dwarf Run and the Vent (I'm sure the Mostali have good water sources hidden away), under the Delainan Hills of Esrolia, perhaps under the Grazelands or Beast Valley.  The Grazelanders, Beastfolk, and Telmori may have the advantage of sufficient shamans to perform these rituals and draw the water up (particularly since Ernalda is dead and the earth goddesses sleep).

3) Purifying Bay or Upland Marsh water.  River and Choralinthor priests (maybe shaman) can use their magics to purify the waters of the bay or marshes of salts/poisons and make it drinkable.  This means that the cities by the Bay suffer the least - Nochet, Rhigos, Storos, Karse, Sklar, Backford, Leskos, maybe Durengard and Vizel.

4) Departing for those areas where there are known water sources.  If they can make it there and aren't targeted as food along the way or at the destination by trolls, Telmori, chaos and undead.

Other thoughts?  And what can the Moon priestesses do to help ameliorate this suffering (and get converts in the process)?

 

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Windstop is an unfortunate name on retrospect. Thematically, the events of 1621-1622 and 1624 involve:

  • The Death of the Old Gods. Orlanth and Ernalda are finally killed and cast down into the Underworld by the Red Goddess.
  • The return of the Old Gods to a new world. Orlanth and Ernalda return from the Underworld. 
  • The revival of Orlanth as an Old God turned New. Orlanth appears at the Battle of Pennel, clearly changed. He has 11 stars not 8. He has heroes that are able/willing to fight the Red Goddess more effectively - using some of her secrets against her. 

Old gods eventually ossify, stagnate, and fail to provide meaning. They are cast down so that new gods can replace them - that's part of the teaching of the Red Goddess. But as a result of the Windstop, Orlanth and Ernalda are cast down BUT return, able to provide new meaning, new order, and new vitality. It's a very interesting mythic moment that pretty much is the opening of the Hero Wars. The rest of the Hero Wars could very well be described as "what is the meaning of the return of Orlanth and Ernalda."

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Windstop is an unfortunate name on retrospect.

It seems to be one of the clear effects though, so I could certainly see varied residents of Dragon Pass and areas nearby refer to it in that manner.  Others likely have other names: the Great Winter, the Dead Time, etc.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Death of the Old Gods. Orlanth and Ernalda are finally killed and cast down into the Underworld by the Red Goddess.

I'm particularly interested in what this means for the residents trying to survive.  Are there water sources?  Where/how do they find food?  What can Lunar magics and glamours do to ameliorate the effects.  Do folk seek shelter with the trolls or become troll food?

What can the other gods do now that the Compromise is broken?  Do the water and river gods reverse their courses?  Does Delecti send out his zombies against the Orlmarth or lure them in with promises of 'magic' water?  Do Brangbane's ghouls descend upon the Cinsina or do ogres and giants come marching into Snakepipe Hollow to take advantage of humans trying to get water?  Much may be specific to individual games, of course, but there should be a range of actions/events that can be detailed.

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

1) The rivers of Dragon Pass.  No winds, no clouds, no rain.  And freezing air.  That suggests that most rivers in Dragon Pass dry up and/or freeze over except those protected by the Moon (i.e. the Oslir and the Black Eel - and even those would substantially diminish as their headwaters would still dry/freeze up).  The Malthin, Lyksos, Marzeel, Bullflood, and Minthus are all affected this way and most of the Gorphing.  Some tributaries of the Gorphing extend farther into Maniria outside the Windstop.  They might get some wind/rain by the air/storms sucked towards the Windstop, but my thought is that those waters freeze over or are sucked into the dead earth as they pass the Windstop.  Does that make sense?  And what of the River of Cradles?

My assessment: Freezing conditions in Sartar: Hollri ice demons come down from the mountains and the lowlands of Sartar are covered in ice and snow: streams and rivers freeze over in the hills and dwindle elsewhere.

In Esrolia normal Dark Season conditions persist - no snow, but chilly.

The River of Cradles probably shrinks below its normal Dark Season depth and becomes unnavigable in places. There's probably still some water flowing, for a time, but eventually it's going to dwindle.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

2) The Upland Marsh.  Presumably Delecti can fend off the effects of the Windstop in his 'dead' waters?  This would mean that 'some' water can be found by desperate Sartarites attracted to the open water.  At the same time, this could just be a lure by Delecti to boost his undead population (and the undead may roam farther to seek the dying and bring them to the Marsh for 'conversion').  It may also mean that the Ducks have a greater chance of survival because they can get water and harvest weeds or grains from the Marsh, and some folk might shelter in Duck Point (if not occupied still by the Lunars) as one way to survive the Great Winter.

My assessment: the Upland Marsh is covered in ice; in some places thick, in other places thin. The water below becomes increasingly stagnant and stinking. Just as ghouls are active elsewhere in Sartar, Delecti's minions have plenty of freshly dead or almost dead to harvest.

 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

3) Choralinthor Bay and the Syphon River.  Fed by the oceans, the Choralinthor does not diminish, but may become saltier without the flow of fresh waters into it? Does/could it freeze over?  My guess is not, except near the land margins (the Rightarm Islands may suffer freezing when the tides drop, then the ice melts as the tide rises).  The Syphon, running backwards, would still flow at the start and likely still flows up into the print.  But it would be entirely salty now and everything along its banks would be contaminated by salts, as well as freezing.

I'd imagine that the Choralinthor is unaffected, but trying to cross it using a sail won't work. Trade in Nochet slows because merchant ships can't easily get in and out of port unless they hire rowers. Triremes and other military vessels can still cross the bay, but it takes time and effort.

With food running out, and prices rising from the few merchants who can pay for rowers, Nochet is going to have food riots.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

4) The Skyfall.  What happens here?  This is a hole into the Gods World/Gods War.  I'm thinking that the hole might in fact expand and the entire area over the Skyfall Lake would be inundated by the waterfall.  But the clouds that normally shroud the Skyfall are gone.  That would mean that the trolls have water, and the water of the River would still flow down into Snakepipe Hollow.  I could see that the Dwarf might employ his tools to keep the River moving past Dwarf Run, and perhaps it has enough flow beneath the ice over it to reach the Upland Marsh.  Again, desperate folk might seek to reach the River, and even brave the horrors of Snakepipe Hollow to get water. 

The water freezes as it fails, becoming hail. It impacts the ground and freezes solid.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

5) The River.  Assuming the Skyfall still pours down and the River still has current beneath the ice at least to the Upland Marsh, does any water still flow on south past the Marsh?  Perhaps enough to reach Duck Point or the Wild Temple, I'd guess, but it would freeze over and dry up somewhere after that.  It would not make it to the junction with the Lyksos or Choralinthor Bay without the added volume of rain and tributaries such as the Creek and the Stream.

Freezes over and starts to dwindle as its waters become ice.

Edited by M Helsdon

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28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm particularly interested in what this means for the residents trying to survive.  Are there water sources?  Where/how do they find food?  What can Lunar magics and glamours do to ameliorate the effects.  Do folk seek shelter with the trolls or become troll food?

 

People are going to live off their supplies in their root cellars and then from their clan's storage pits, and then by raiding their neighbours. There are going to be dead things in the snow: deer and other animals, and people... Maybe they risk eating the frozen meat, animal, hopefully... The Lunar garrisons are going to sit on their supplies, but they are going to suffer - few supply caravans getting through - and may decide to plunder the natives. The Telmori and ghouls will be raiding in Sartar. The Trolls may attempt to reinstate the Shadow Tribute.

It's a major population dieback event. I suspect entire clans perish and tribes fragment.

Edited by M Helsdon

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I'd say that the Darkness mythology of the gods is useful here, and most of the water deities continue, in some form, even if their free flowing movement is lessened. We know that both Engizi and Heler worshipers continue to have magic during Orlanth is Dead, so there gods are not 'dead' within the zone. A 'hard' GM might make it harder to use water magic based on fluidity and movement.

1) We know that the middle air is cloudless in the 'dead zone' so we don't get rainfall. We also know that it is cold. So, yes, many rivers freeze over. Probably there will be some water under the ice, but its thick enough so that you can skate on the surface. You can saw a hole in the ice to fish or pull up buckets of water. You are right that with no further rain/snow then the rivers would 'dry up' over time just leaving the ice, but I think that will take some time. Rivers tend to be fed from water in the rocks that builds up over years, not just surface run-off from rain or meltwater from snow. I'd think of a dry winter and how that affects water here on Earth, usually the effect of a dry winter becomes evident later in the year. Things are out-of-whack even after the Battle of Iceland. However, I don't believe that Skyfall stops at any point. This means that the River continues to get a fresh supply of water from the sky, and won't dry up. It may not even freeze in parts. It also means that the Skyfall storm will deliver rain/sleet to areas around Skyfall Lake.

2) Like any swamp the water will tend to freeze easily because it is not flowing so fast that ice cannot form easily. So I think that the Upland Marsh does freeze. However, the ice will be thin in many places, and not suitable to skate on, making travel hazardous. I suspect that there are zombies under the ice, ready to claw through the thin cover of frozen water

3) See above. I think the effect is gradual over the whole of 1622, and that some of the impact is felt out into 1623 as nature 'rebounds.'

4) If you need to melt snow or ice for water, then your issue is going to be the permafrost will have turned the trees to iron and made them hard to cut. Supplies of winter fuel will run low in late Storm Season and early Sea Season. You'll want to continually melt ice to get fresh water, whenever your fire is burning because you don't have the spare wood to do both separately. If you well freezes over your best bet is dropping buckets weighted with rocks down to smash the ice - but relying on a well and having that freeze over is more likely IMO to lead to a water shortage than living near a frozen river.

PS One major way that the Empire gained converts in my playtest of The Eleven Lights was providing magical healing for cold injuries, or just hot soup.

 

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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The River of Cradles probably shrinks below its normal Dark Season depth and becomes unnavigable in places. There's probably still some water flowing, for a time, but eventually it's going to dwindle.

Upstream in the mountains, the headwaters are blocked by ice and dam up at the edge of the Windstop. The winter melt still happens beyond the Windstop's boundary so there is a massive flood event down the River of Cradles when the Great Winter ends. 

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30 minutes ago, MOB said:

Upstream in the mountains, the headwaters are blocked by ice and dam up at the edge of the Windstop. The winter melt still happens beyond the Windstop's boundary so there is a massive flood event down the River of Cradles when the Great Winter ends. 

I imagine that such ice dams are going to happen to almost every river under the effect of the Windstop, so there's going to be flooding for some distance down river, until the waters become sufficiently spread out on flood plains (and, given the catastrophic flow, above the normal flood plain)?

For the Zola Fel, Old Pavis and its walls are going to have an impact, diverting some water before it bursts through the Rubble? New Pavis might be virtually unscathed, though Riverside may get wet... That west wall might have its foundations damaged. Further downstream, the New Bog is going to temporarily become a lake, and possibly the North and South Bogs too. Hmm, the waters may wash out things hidden for a very long time...?

In Sartar, the Upland Marsh will take most of the excess, expanding dramatically, and Delecti's islands may become literally swamped. Things will get decidedly wet at Duck Point...?

Edited by M Helsdon

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15 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I imagine that such ice dams are going to happen to almost every river under the effect of the Windstop, so there's going to be flooding for some distance down river, until the waters become sufficiently spread out on flood plains (and, given the catastrophic flow, above the normal flood plain)?

For sure - another unintended consequence of the event.

15 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

For the Zola Fel, Old Pavis and its walls are going to have an impact, diverting some water before it bursts through the Rubble? New Pavis might be virtually unscathed, though Riverside may get wet... Further downstream, the New Bog is going to temporarily become a lake, and possibly the North and South Bogs too. Hmm, the waters may wash out things hidden for a very long time...?

The whole breadbasket of Sun County gets flooded, but it has an upside: 

This is what I wrote for the Sun County timeline:

Flood follows Winter

Several days after Count Solanthos was burned, a great inundation swept down the River of Cradles valley, flooding parts of Pavis County, the Rubble, and then beyond to Sun County; these were the waters that helped Invictus contain Daga at Highwater Gorge. Lhankor Mhy scholars later concurred with Hector the Wise that the ice and snow in the Rockwoods never had a chance to melt in the Great Winter, and the Zola Fel and its mountain streams and tributaries must have frozen over. This all changed when the Windstop suddenly ended, sending the entire spring melt downstream in a vast flood, wreaking destruction from Boathouse Ruins as far as the Great Bog.

In Pavis, good progress had been made rebuilding the Lunar Bridge after the giant cradle had smashed through its central span. The construction work formed a chokepoint for the surging waters, but was eventually swept away. Floodwaters poured into the Rubble, quickly breaking the banks and flooding much of the northern banks of the ruins. For a while, Badside outside the walls and Zebra Fort within became island refuges, and the rising waters forced many angry trolls out of their cellars and hidey-holes in the Troll stronglands.

The Great Corvée

For several weeks, a great sheet of water spread far over the flatlands of Pavis County and the breadbasket of Sun County, causing further misery for the people. But when the floodwaters finally receded, they saw Zola Fel had left them with a gift: the fields were now covered in a thick layer of fertile silt.

It was too late in the year for planting, so the hungry times continued, though the farmers all agreed that the next planting season offered incredible promise. In the meantime famine was kept at bay by the grateful elves, who shared the miraculous bounty from the Garden with the people of Pavis and the Sun Dome. Only in the distant Grantlands was there true starvation in the River of Cradles valley after that.

When the waters abated, there was much to be done to take advantage of the precious soil deposited by the flood. Vega Goldbreath as Guardian led the efforts to repair the damage in the Lands of the Sun. Using an ancient tattered scroll from the temple archives depicting the fabled Gods Wall in distant Dara Happa, Vega evoked the story of the Ten Sons and Servants. The entire population was mobilized into a Great Corvée, with even Light Sons and priests putting their hands to mattock and spade. Although initially scandalized to see the Light Lady taking on the role of Morkatos the Foreman, clad only in a kilt, in a remarkably short time the people cleared away tremendous quantities of debris, dug out irrigation channels and repaired the riverbanks.

Meanwhile, Penta Goldbreath formed a Ty Kora Tek sisterhood with others sharing her affliction to help the many restless ghosts and vengeful wraiths from Great Winter find their solace.

The Goldbreath sisters earned great respect for their efforts to restore the land after the tribulations of the past several years. The Sun Folk were cheered when that Sacred Time Gaumata the Seer foretold a year ahead of peace and plenty, and that their earnest toil would at last be rewarded with an abundant harvest.

Edited by MOB
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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

are covered in ice and snow

This is one key point:  is there actually snow?  If there is, then there is water to melt.  If not, water is going to be very, very hard to come by.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

and dwindle elsewhere

Given no rain (unless the Bad Rains come?), I think they will not only dwindle but come to a stop, except perhaps for the Sky River (though I like the idea that it turns into or includes hail on the way down).

 

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

With food running out, and prices rising from the few merchants who can pay for rowers, Nochet is going to have food riots

They actually have several years of grain supplies stored, so won't run out, but I'm sure rationing and hoarding will occur, prices will rise,and food riots are still likely.

 

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

People are going to live off their supplies in their root cellars and then from their clan's storage pits, and then by raiding their neighbours

Outside the Esrolian cities, it'll be interesting to see how extensive the supplies are - anything really beyond Dark and Stormseasons?  By Seaseason, shortages should become commonplace and starvation by the start of Fireseason at the latest.

But water supplies remain a far greater and faster issue.

15 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

We know that both Engizi and Heler worshipers continue to have magic during Orlanth is Dead, so there gods are not 'dead' within the zone. A 'hard' GM might make it harder to use water magic based on fluidity and movement.

Right.  So that would keep the Skyfall flowing, which makes sense.  Might freeze on the way down, but perhaps sufficient (or even additional flow) is still liquid and Skyfall Lake still liquid under the ice.  Whether due to Engizi, chaos, the Dwarf, or even Delecti, there is water moving down the River.

But where is Heler?  No wind to move him.  Perhaps he still arises over the Choralinthor and moves like (or with?) the murderous Iphara Fogs?  Or perhaps his flocks are scattered, sitting atop whatever mountains or valleys they were on or in when the winds stopped?  [I rather like that idea, that they stop and never move and continue to rain or snow until the clouds are empty and they dissipate.]

47 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

You can saw a hole in the ice to fish or pull up buckets of water.

You are right that with no further rain/snow then the rivers would 'dry up' over time just leaving the ice, but I think that will take some time.

So deep pools, ponds, small lakes become critical to survival for those who can cut holes in the ice.

And, yes, mountain fed streams will continue for some time (just as they would in a drought).  But with constant freezing, it may become necessary to climb higher up into the mountains and battle hollri to reach these sources.  I could certainly see hollri being fed and growing from these as well.

50 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I think that the Upland Marsh does freeze.

It will if if is normal swamp and Delecti doesn't stop it.  But Delecti may well have the magic and the motives to keep the water clear of ice.

 

52 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

Supplies of winter fuel will run low in late Storm Season and early Sea Season. You'll want to continually melt ice to get fresh water, whenever your fire is burning because you don't have the spare wood to do both separately. If you well freezes over your best bet is dropping buckets weighted with rocks down to smash the ice - but relying on a well and having that freeze over is more likely IMO to lead to a water shortage than living near a frozen river.

Yes, I think that all makes sense.  And I can certainly picture clansfolk desperately trying to get wood cut.  Perhaps they even turn to Oakfed to warm larger areas?!  (And anger the aldryami in the aftermath)

53 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

One major way that the Empire gained converts in my playtest of The Eleven Lights was providing magical healing for cold injuries, or just hot soup

I think both of those work well.  The question will be whether the Lunars can obtain water that the locals cannot.  Makes me wonder if the 'tidal' powers of the Moon can be used to draw water up from the Earth???  That would make the Lunars particularly useful/powerful in this period.

53 minutes ago, MOB said:

Upstream in the mountains, the headwaters are blocked by ice and dam up at the edge of the Windstop. The winter melt still happens beyond the Windstop's boundary so there is a massive flood event down the River of Cradles when the Great Winter ends.

I can picture this event along the Gorphing as well since some of its headwaters are beyond the Windstop.  Could even occur along the River if the Skyfall Lake builds up a great ice dam above Snakepipe Hollow.

26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

In Sartar, the Upland Marsh will take most of the excess, expanding dramatically, and Delecti's islands may become literally swamped. Things will get decidedly wet at Duck Point...?

Yes, that would make a lot of sense, and if Delecti has been busy expanding his number of zombies throughout the period...

Lots of good thoughts to work from here.

 

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3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think both of those work well.  The question will be whether the Lunars can obtain water that the locals cannot.  Makes me wonder if the 'tidal' powers of the Moon can be used to draw water up from the Earth???  That would make the Lunars particularly useful/powerful in this period.

I like that! And maybe if you let the Lunars do that to your well, it could be enslaved to the Lunar cycle ever after?

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I can picture this event along the Gorphing as well since some of its headwaters are beyond the Windstop.  Could even occur along the River if the Skyfall Lake builds up a great ice dam above Snakepipe Hollow.

Sure, these sort of floods probably happen the whole way round the circumference of the Windstop, unless there are local factors to prevent it.

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Just now, MOB said:

And maybe if you let the Lunars do that to your well, it could be enslaved to the Lunar cycle ever after?

Oh that's even better!

Or the well, pond, etc. gets inhabited by Moon spirits (spirits of Madness) or gets a strange sheen, taste, or color that locals call Moonshine.

Lots of different effects that clearly show that the locals collaborated with the Lunars.

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In Esrolia normal Dark Season conditions persist - no snow, but chilly.

My question here would be why?  Was Esrolia mythically different from Dragon Pass in that respect?  There were plenty of demons that came to Nochet and no reason those did not include hollri or the like.

However, we know that Veskarthan lives beneath Caladraland, and I think beneath the Shadow Plateau as well.  So his heat may have kept Esrolia warmer mythically, and thus will keep the Esrolian earth warmer.  But probably not enough to avoid surface/river ice.

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6 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I imagine that such ice dams are going to happen to almost every river under the effect of the Windstop, so there's going to be flooding for some distance down river, until the waters become sufficiently spread out on flood plains (and, given the catastrophic flow, above the normal flood plain)?

For the Zola Fel, Old Pavis and its walls are going to have an impact, diverting some water before it bursts through the Rubble? New Pavis might be virtually unscathed, though Riverside may get wet... That west wall might have its foundations damaged. Further downstream, the New Bog is going to temporarily become a lake, and possibly the North and South Bogs too. Hmm, the waters may wash out things hidden for a very long time...?

Depending on how high New Pavis sits -- and my understanding is, basically "on the banks of the Zola Fel" without any particular extra altitude (looking at the map, I see mostly straight roads crossing at right-angles, with little to no signs of any terrain; except in the northwest(?) corner, High St / Thane St / Tower Sq.) -- I would expect the entire city to be flooded.  Streets become canals; all ground-level rooms flooded; low-lying areas have entire buildings underwater, flooding possibly even up to the 2nd story.  Only the High St neighborhood, as noted, might have streets above the flood.

The walls of Old Pavis are already breached; the water will come in, and the level inside will be the same as the level outside.  The Big Rubble will doubtless break the FORCE of the water, affording some protection to the lesser structures of New Pavis... but the Rubble won't alter the encompassing breadth of such a large flood!  At peak flood, I would expect most of the width of the valley to be underwater.

edit:  Ninja'ed AND Lhankor Mhy'ed by MOB!

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48 minutes ago, g33k said:

Depending on how high New Pavis sits -- and my understanding is, basically "on the banks of the Zola Fel" without any particular extra altitude (looking at the map, I see mostly straight roads crossing at right-angles, with little to no signs of any terrain; except in the northwest(?) corner, High St / Thane St / Tower Sq.) -- I would expect the entire city to be flooded.  Streets become canals; all ground-level rooms flooded; low-lying areas have entire buildings underwater, flooding possibly even up to the 2nd story.  Only the High St neighborhood, as noted, might have streets above the flood.

The walls of Old Pavis are already breached; the water will come in, and the level inside will be the same as the level outside.  The Big Rubble will doubtless break the FORCE of the water, affording some protection to the lesser structures of New Pavis... but the Rubble won't alter the encompassing breadth of such a large flood!  At peak flood, I would expect most of the width of the valley to be underwater.

edit:  Ninja'ed AND Lhankor Mhy'ed by MOB!

The cover of River of Cradles gives a good idea of how high New Pavis sits above the bank:

1035955.jpg

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13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Windstop is an unfortunate name on retrospect. Thematically, the events of 1621-1622 and 1624 involve:

  • The Death of the Old Gods. Orlanth and Ernalda are finally killed and cast down into the Underworld by the Red Goddess.
  • The return of the Old Gods to a new world. Orlanth and Ernalda return from the Underworld. 
  • The revival of Orlanth as an Old God turned New. Orlanth appears at the Battle of Pennel, clearly changed. He has 11 stars not 8. He has heroes that are able/willing to fight the Red Goddess more effectively - using some of her secrets against her. 

Old gods eventually ossify, stagnate, and fail to provide meaning. They are cast down so that new gods can replace them - that's part of the teaching of the Red Goddess. But as a result of the Windstop, Orlanth and Ernalda are cast down BUT return, able to provide new meaning, new order, and new vitality. It's a very interesting mythic moment that pretty much is the opening of the Hero Wars. The rest of the Hero Wars could very well be described as "what is the meaning of the return of Orlanth and Ernalda."

Orlanth's dead, rebirth and transformation to match his foe, isn't that very similar to what the Red Goddess did?

In so doing so he become his enemy to defeat them (cough: Arkat; Brotherhood of the Swallow)?

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9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My question here would be why?  Was Esrolia mythically different from Dragon Pass in that respect?  There were plenty of demons that came to Nochet and no reason those did not include hollri or the like.

I suspect because: It's geographically different: not uplands and closer to the edge of the event. There's a major difference in elevation, and, as in the rest of the year, sea temperatures are going to moderate temperatures. The currents haven't been affected, and a warm sea will warm the nearby land.

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8 hours ago, g33k said:

Depending on how high New Pavis sits -- and my understanding is, basically "on the banks of the Zola Fel" without any particular extra altitude (looking at the map, I see mostly straight roads crossing at right-angles, with little to no signs of any terrain; except in the northwest(?) corner, High St / Thane St / Tower Sq.) -- I would expect the entire city to be flooded.  Streets become canals; all ground-level rooms flooded; low-lying areas have entire buildings underwater, flooding possibly even up to the 2nd story.  Only the High St neighborhood, as noted, might have streets above the flood.

edit:  Ninja'ed AND Lhankor Mhy'ed by MOB!

As MOB has noted, it's some way above the normal waterline. There will be a serious flood at the north of Old Pass as the walls of the old city constrain and funnel the flow: a real maelstrom at the Lunar Bridge, and the waters might reach the eastern walls of New Pavis before subsiding.

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9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This is one key point:  is there actually snow?  If there is, then there is water to melt.  If not, water is going to be very, very hard to come by.

I suspect it depends the altitude and temperature that moisture in the air is affected. There will probably be some snow, but not for long, and it's going to freeze solid on the ground in upland areas - which would be most of Sartar.

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given no rain (unless the Bad Rains come?), I think they will not only dwindle but come to a stop, except perhaps for the Sky River (though I like the idea that it turns into or includes hail on the way down).

I imagine there will be flow, for a time, especially for rivers and tributaries fed by springs at low elevations.

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They actually have several years of grain supplies stored, so won't run out, but I'm sure rationing and hoarding will occur, prices will rise,and food riots are still likely

With the 'recent' political turmoil in Nochet some people are going to be more 'equal' than others in gaining access to the supplies?

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Outside the Esrolian cities, it'll be interesting to see how extensive the supplies are - anything really beyond Dark and Stormseasons?  By Seaseason, shortages should become commonplace and starvation by the start of Fireseason at the latest.

Up in Sartar, moving any load by track or road will be very difficult; in Esrolia not so hard?

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As the Wind stop is really a smaller version as @Ian Cooper says, it's worth looking at the mythology of what happened with these areas in the Great Darkness. Zola Fel was present in Prax's forests, before the Waters invaded in the Late Storm Age, scouting ahead of the invasion. He's already met the Rockwood Giants and when the Spike exploded he lept from leaping Falls back to the ocean (River of Cradles page 173).

Shadows Dance to the Leaping Falls is the main catchment of the river, it doesn't enter Prax until it leaves the Redwood Forest. This large area receives runoff from the Three Little Giant Mountains, a bit of the Rockwoods, Nine Good Giants, and the Rock Lakes. The Border is the Bounder Hills separating Dagori Inkarth from Shadows Dance (see page 30 of the AAA). This was Zola Fel's base in the Great Darkness, the presence of the Mountains and Trolls undoubtably helped and no doubt he fought much chaos here before dying. His waters contributed to the survival of the Redwood elves and forest too. Once out of the Redwood Forest, Oakfed's powers were obviously too much for him as the forests are gone. The desolation hills mark the start of the Wastes and at the edge of these is Leaping Place Falls.

13 hours ago, MOB said:

Upstream in the mountains, the headwaters are blocked by ice and dam up at the edge of the Windstop. The winter melt still happens beyond the Windstop's boundary so there is a massive flood event down the River of Cradles when the Great Winter ends. 

In the Windstop, I believe his waters aren't hampered to much in his catchment, okay so it's cold, but he fought in the cold and darkness before. It's when he leaps off the Falls that the problem starts. Prax has little in the way of water normally as this is where his fight really starts. Most of his waters pile up, freezing at the base of the falls, creating a huge ice dam. It's this dam when it melts that causes the problems.

Here's a bigger version of the Windstop map that I did for the Guide (page 731). You should be able to see affected rivers clearer. Sorry I can't really post the full high res map - use the AAA map for closeup detail).

Screen Shot 2016-08-29 at 12.57.39.png

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

Oh well, at least the link is here.

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5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

As MOB has noted, it's some way above the normal waterline. There will be a serious flood at the north of Old Pass as the walls of the old city constrain and funnel the flow: a real maelstrom at the Lunar Bridge, and the waters might reach the eastern walls of New Pavis before subsiding.

It all depends on whether the mythological roots of this event match up with real-world flood dynamics or not.  I'm going with the principle that -- even if the root causes are mythological instead of based on hydrogeology/meteorology/etc -- the EVENTS are very similar...

That huge flat plain on either side of the river?  It's called a "flood plain" and in the RW, most "flood plains" will in fact flood every so often... just in the normal course of events, not in the lee of a vast mythological freeze that suddenly thaws!

I myself live not far from a big-ish river.  "Flood stage" hits here (at the nearest bridge with monitoring gear) officially at 32' (depth of river), but actually a few low-lying structures are hit between 29'-30' .  We reach the 32' - 33' level frequently; I don't believe we've gone as long as 5 years in a row without topping 33', over the past 20ish years.   We've had multiple events topping 40' and one got almost to 50' -- it shut down all the towns along the river, backed up each tributary creek for a mile or more, etc...

I reiterate:  the flood waters will extend far beyond the town in all directions.  Pavis' walls will be rising up out of a flat plain of water instead of ground; and the waters WILL (as water is wont to do!) find its way inside the walls.  Pavis, old and new, WILL flood in an event of that magnitude (unless there is a mythico-magical reason for it not to).

Referring to the cover of "RoC" ...  as I surmised from the map, there is a hill in the corner of New Pavis that MAY be above the flood waters.  Remembering that there will be a major seasonal variation, I presume the image shown is NOT from a high-water time (normally towards the end of Storm Season, I presume?) -- this is a quiet, safe season on the Zola Fel.  The river probably hits bank-full (the point where the soldiers in the foreground are standing; and the base of the rocky hillock across the river) most years at least once, but the mythical flood we are discussing will be FAR above that!

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4 hours ago, g33k said:

Referring to the cover of "RoC" ...  as I surmised from the map, there is a hill in the corner of New Pavis that MAY be above the flood waters.  Remembering that there will be a major seasonal variation, I presume the image shown is NOT from a high-water time (normally towards the end of Storm Season, I presume?) -- this is a quiet, safe season on the Zola Fel.  The river probably hits bank-full (the point where the soldiers in the foreground are standing; and the base of the rocky hillock across the river) most years at least once, but the mythical flood we are discussing will be FAR above that!

Under normal conditions, in Sea Season, when it is at its greatest extent due to rainfall and snowmelt, the Zola Fel's main channel may be twelve metres deep and up to 400 metres wide. Judging from the illustration on the cover of River of Cradles, and allowing for perspective, this greatest extent won't reach the base of the walls of New Pavis. If it did, then the builders, dwarves who had lived there prior to the new city being founded, would not be very competent. In fact there's no sign of significant erosion above the road, so under normal circumstances, New Pavis won't flood.

It then depends on just how fast the ice melts at the end of Windstop, and how high the river becomes at New Pavis. As there's significant room for the waters to flood, after the Zola Fel meets the Fenwash, the waters may not be significantly higher at Pavis. As other major tributaries are south of Pavis, including the Stormwater and Scritha the worst is likely to occur south of the city, and severely flood the New Bog.

 

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