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Harrek

Clan feuds and orlanthi law in Pavis County

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Hello everyone,

it's first time I write something here, although I've been an active reader from the very beginning. We have a long campaign centered in and around Pavis and Pavis County. My character has established a new Dorasing/Orlanthi clan along Scritha River. One important thing: in our campaign the lunars have been defeated in Pavis and are gone forever. This means that Pavis and Pavis County are ruled in old way, the way it was before lunars.

The clans of Pavis County are under the rule of Pavis. The clans pay taxes to Pavis and get some services and protection back. I think the clans are, however, quite autonomous. Is this correct? 

The Dorasing clans follow Orlanthi law, right? When is someone judged by the Pavic law? Is it possible to appeal to the Pavic court instead of local clan-based Orlanthi court? And for whom this is possible? 

Another question: how clan rivalries are handled in Pavis County? Do the clans fight against each other? Under the lunar occupation I think they didn't, because there was a bigger enemy around. If a clan fights against another clan and somebody dies, by which law are the participants judged? Is there a wergild tradition? How about duels as a method to resolve a dispute? What if somebody dies as a result of such duel? Is there a cattle raiding culture among the Dorasing clans?

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15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

This means that Pavis and Pavis County are ruled in old way, the way it was before lunars.

Like during the reign of Dorasar or during the reign of Lord Pavis?

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

The clans of Pavis County are under the rule of Pavis. The clans pay taxes to Pavis and get some services and protection back. I think the clans are, however, quite autonomous. Is this correct? 

I think any government would be weak outside the city of New Pavis.  The only way it could raise money would be on taxes on activities within the city (where the tax collectors could avoid being beaten up).    And for protection?  I doubt that New Pavis has enough funds for any sort of protective services.  I think the clans would find it cheaper to cut out the middle men and hire mercenaries (Sun Domers, Zebra Tribe, friendly nomads) if they had to fight.  

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

The Dorasing clans follow Orlanthi law, right? When is someone judged by the Pavic law? Is it possible to appeal to the Pavic court instead of local clan-based Orlanthi court? And for whom this is possible? 

Presumably you are referring to the Sartarite Settler clans and not the clans of Dorasar's household (who slipped upon carelessly unsheaved lunar daggers when the lunars came)?  The clans follow their own laws.  If you have a dispute with your fellow clansman, then appealling to New Pavis would only get you beaten up.  If you have a dispute with another clan, then you would either spoil for a fight or reach agreement clan-to-clan rather than automatically accept the jurisdiction of New Pavis.  Looking at the Coming Storm - the Cinsina tribe could supposedly take many of its disputes to Jonstown to sort it out.  Yet the number of fights it gets into with its neighbours makes it look like thatnever happens.

 

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

Another question: how clan rivalries are handled in Pavis County? Do the clans fight against each other? Under the lunar occupation I think they didn't, because there was a bigger enemy around.

Clans fight in Sartar all the time and there is a bigger enemy around.  The Lunars would be happy to see the clans fight all the time because it keeps them 1) busy and 2) unlikely to join forces against the Lunars.

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

If a clan fights against another clan and somebody dies, by which law are the participants judged?

They clan chief makes a complaint to the other clan.  If there is no redress, then he fights by fair means or foul until the other clan decides gets tired and says sorry.

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

Is there a wergild tradition?

Yes.

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

How about duels as a method to resolve a dispute?

Yes

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

What if somebody dies as a result of such duel?

Hard cheese.  

15 minutes ago, Harrek said:

Is there a cattle raiding culture among the Dorasing clans?

Not as much as they are more concerned about keeping their cattle out of the hands of the Praxians.  

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6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Like during the reign of Dorasar or during the reign of Lord Pavis?

I think Pavis County is ruled the way it was done during the reign of Dorasar. Pavis itself is ruled the way it was done during the reign of Pavis.

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5 hours ago, Harrek said:

it's first time I write something here, although I've been an active reader from the very beginning. We have a long campaign centered in and around Pavis and Pavis County. My character has established a new Dorasing/Orlanthi clan along Scritha River. One important thing: in our campaign the lunars have been defeated in Pavis and are gone forever. This means that Pavis and Pavis County are ruled in old way, the way it was before lunars.

That is a big change. Don;t forget that Dorasor came and allied with Pavis, but as his follower, not his equal, so the clans of Pavis County follow Pavic Law rather than Sartarite Law, or rather they follow both but Pavic Law takes precedence.

What does this mean?

For problems in the clan, Sartarite and Tradition probably outweighs Pavic law, unless someone wants to appeal to the Pavic Courts. 

For problems between clans, Sartarite and Tradition apply in many cases, but Pavic Law probably applies more often.

For problems between clans and other people, Pavic Law generally applies.

There is a lot of roleplaying potential in having two legal systems that have different ideas on what is legal, what is a crime and what is the punishment.

As the PC's clan is a new clan, Tradition only needs apply so much, as the PC can make Tradition up as he goes along.

The clans of Pavis County are under the rule of Pavis. The clans pay taxes to Pavis and get some services and protection back. I think the clans are, however, quite autonomous. Is this correct? 

Yes the clans are autonomous. Some are linked to clans in Sartar, others are not. Don't forget that a lot of the clans were formed by exiles from Sartar and a lot of those were outlaws, so have severed ties with their original clans.

The Dorasing clans follow Orlanthi law, right? When is someone judged by the Pavic law? Is it possible to appeal to the Pavic court instead of local clan-based Orlanthi court? And for whom this is possible? 

See above, Orlanthi law applies in some cases, Pavic Law apples in others. The parts where they disagree result in appeals, legal hearings and so on.

It is definitely possible to appeal to the Pavic Courts. However, Pavic Citizens can appeal to Pavic Courts in a different way, they can demand to be tried as Pavic Citizens under Pavic Law, no matter what the Orlanthi Law says.

 

Another question: how clan rivalries are handled in Pavis County? Do the clans fight against each other? Under the lunar occupation I think they didn't, because there was a bigger enemy around. If a clan fights against another clan and somebody dies, by which law are the participants judged? Is there a wergild tradition? How about duels as a method to resolve a dispute? What if somebody dies as a result of such duel? Is there a cattle raiding culture among the Dorasing clans?

The Dorasing clans have an intricate structure.

Some are linked to the old clans in Sartar, so are treated as faraway parts of those clans.

Some are formed of outlawed exiles and are hostile to the original Sartarite clans that exiled them for political reasons.

Some were founded by exiles and people from other Dorasing clans, so have mixed views regarding the Sartarite clans and other Dorasing clans.

Where the clans are connected to the original Sartarite clans, they will have inherited those clan likes and dislikes. Two such clans might be hostile because the clans in Sartar are hostile. Clans founded by exiles might be hostile to both their original Sartatite clans and the clans founded by the enemies of their old Sartarte clans.

This makes for a complex mix of inter-clan politics, feuds and rivalries.

Add into this the "civilising" influence of Pavis and you get a mixture of clans with a weakened Orlanthi way. In Pavis itself, people identify themselves with pavis first and their clans second. In pavis county they might identify with Pavis first, or their own clans first. This makes things confusing, which is always good.

I would say there are duels and feuds. If someone dies, then the clans could pay weregild and that's the end of it. Or, they could appeal to Pavis, especially if one of the parties is a Pavic Citizen.

Cattle raiding is more problematic. On the one hand, there is an honourable tradition of cattle raiding stretching into the God Time, On the other hand, they are surrounded by tribes of hostile Praxians. So, most dorasing clans would raid each other for cattle, but only a few brave souls would raid Praxians for cattle, unless they found a weak praxian clan.

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Thanks for the replies. I have to say that I prefer metcalph's answer. In our campaign, that approach would generate better play in current situation. Or maybe we use a solution somewhere between the two approaches...

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On 2/26/2017 at 5:42 PM, Harrek said:

This means that Pavis and Pavis County are ruled in old way, the way it was before lunars.

Before the Lunars, New Pavis was a republic.  After the Lunars, New Pavis becomes the first city that Argrath controls on his road back to Sartar.  It is likely that there will be a period of economic isolation which will be hard on New Pavis before Sartar is retaken.  Many of the richest families in New Pavis own land around the city, and that suggests that the transition from Orlanthi settlers to sattelite settlements of the Pavic Republic, to Lunar Plantation farmers, to suppliers of Argraths war effort will make for a less traditionally Orlanthi situation, in keeping with the odd history of the region.  New Pavis land ownership suggests that the rich families have considerably more influence than is normal in an Orlanthi clan.  It is never explicitly stated how many hides of land the various levels of Orlanthi farmers (stick pickers vs cottars vs carls vs nobles) have access to, or whether there are arrangements such as tenant farming contracts, but it is reasonable to assume that under the Lunars the local rich families had tenancy arrangements.

There is also the issue of Lunar frontiersmen, many of whom would be disgruntled Fazzur supporters who are not in love with the political appointment of the incompetent Tatius "the Dim", who might be somewhat amenable to Argrath's cause, even if only as mercenaries.  It is never explicitly stated what happened to the lunars left in New Pavis after the conquest of the city by Argrath.  No mention of a massive cull,  no mention of a stream of Lunar refugees crossing Prax to Occupied Sartar,  no mention of business as usual or a changing of the guard.  In fact the only thing we see is the image in the Guide to Glorantha of Jotarran Longsword (Chief Administrator of Lunar New Pavis) "being captured".  

The point being that many of the Sartarites who came to New Pavis were refugees from the Lunars who didn't integrate into the local agricultural settlements.  There isn't much of a history of the settlers warring with each other either.  Lets face facts, they have enough problems surviving the perils of Prax, both environmental and nomad.  Now we know that the Lunars put considerable effort into kicking the non-Sable nomads out of Prax into the wastes and were successful enough to make life quite difficult for their Battle of Moonbroth foes.  This Lunar reliance on the Sables is mythically undermined by Argrath when he unites many Praxians including many Sables into the White Bull Society.  

The fact is that we don't know what New Pavis under Argrath looked like.  We can assume that the White Bull Society becomes very important, as New Pavis will have the best regional supply of metal weapons available, and as the new owners of the place, we can safely suppose that Argrath is able to negotiate a solid consensus about convincing the Sartarites and Praxians that they have many common interests, a common friend in himself at very least, and a common enemy in the Lunars.  This is a delicate time for Argrath politically.  He has to balance the bloodlust of his followers and the need to reward them with the pragmatic concerns of insuring that New Pavis is able to function as a point of supply and manufacture, which precludes wholesale slaughter.  This probably means giving the people a number of swift trials where the most hated Lunars are executed and the popular ones are offered clemency, or if they are too popular, they are exiled.  It is possible that some local Lunars will turn their coats; after all, if you aren't a warrior, you have to adapt to the new situation.  This may actually see the creation of new Sartarite style clans to occupy the river valley, made of the old Dorasar era families, and the 1605+ refugees, plus others, but it also may not.  In many ways the Lunar system of plantations is more effective, so you may see a system that combines the best features of Sartarite clans and Lunar plantations emerging.  That sort of syncretic adaptation seems to have been Argrath's administrative strong suit after all.  What is more uncertain is whether Praxian Khans will want to become Pavic landholders.  The answer is almost certainly no, so there will be a changing of the guard, with Sartarite loyalists being given the land grants.

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I guess a lot depends on who Garrath's Knowing Companion was during his time as swordmaster in the city and during the quests that led up towards the Cradle incident.

There are two major interactions of the Sartar dynasty with Pavis. The first was Sartar himself when he recognized the City of Thieves outside of the sealed city, establishing Pol Joni presence and making deals with the Paps. The other was Dorasar seizing the opportunity after the Dragonewts Dream broke the uz seal on the Rubble and establishing New Pavis outside of the old Pavis walls, but probably his first visit to the Pavis Rubble was as a companion of Sarotar (when the designated heir of Saronil would leave his love and marriage interest Arkilia of Nochet for long enough to prove himself as the heroic leader of people he was) as soon as the message of the broken seal reached him (possibly in Nochet, possibly in Boldhome).

I have been looking into the feud between the houses Sartar and Norinel (of Nochet) for other purposes, but I feel that there is hardly any way that the children of Saronil (possibly including Onelisin, almost certainly including all of his sons, and several of his nephews) would have gone to the Pavis Rubble, being among the first explorers and bringing back some of the richest pickings from derelict parts of the city. (Compare the European run for Egyptian antiquities after Napoleon's visit, and how e.g. something like the lost collection of the Minutoli expedition would be impossible to assemble several decades after the first rush on those antiquities.)

There aren't any informations on regalia or magical artifacts used by the Sartar dynasty, but given their priority access to the Big Rubble treasures, we can safely assume that each of them would have wielded some items of Old Pavic origin. Others may have been traded or gifted e.g. to Palashee Longaxe or to House Norinel of Nochet (Arkilia's family, and that of the ruling queen and Grandmother) or may have ended up as clan treasures of companions of Sarotar or some other Sartar dynasty member.

Anyway - Dorasar's move to new Pavis brought other Sartarites to the region, as well as Sun Domers from the recently re-conquered Vanntar sun dome in the wake of Tarkalor's Kitori war. The Garhound, Bullford and Althimandi Clans form the main population of Sartarites outside of the city, the other clans were formed by natives under the protection of Sarotar's city - the Indagos being old Pavisites taking to the surrounding lands, the Ingilli Zola Fel riverfolk, the Eiskolli probably Sun Domers taking part in the land-grab, possibly bolstered by solar worshipping Sartarites choosing Pavis over Vanntar. Already in Dorasar's time exiles from Sartar had a tradition of going to Thieves Town, later Badside, taking part in the exploration of the Rubble for the duration of their banishment.

So let's take a look at Dorasar's Pavis County. The clans probably haven't migrated there from somewhere in Sartar, at best some splitting clans in Sartar may have provided a majority for one of the new clans. At the time Dorasar moved to Pavis solar-worshipping clans took up their belongings joining the Sun Domers in Vanntar, so for the first time in centuries there was unoccupied farmable land available in Sartar proper, too. (Some clans may have split in the aftermath of that Yelmalio revelation, and the remaining storm worshipping part may have found themselves to be too small to survive against tribute-taking neighbors). It is more likely that only some extended families would gather to form a new clan or join one of the partial clans.

Clan traditions (rather than laws) and ring decisions regulate all the affairs inside of a clan. For those most likely newly formed clans, the traditions would be a conglomerate of traditions from the various clans of origin, probably dominated by those of the most numerous faction. The clan ring would divide its land among the clan households according to their influence within the clan, taking special needs of e.g. predominantly herders or predominantly farmers into consideration. Expect heated debates among the menfolk about who needs what and a balanced proposal by the women of the clan after coldblooded intrigue among the women, all coming together in the decision of the clan chief.

Clans recognize certain property rights of households and individuals, but most of the clan wealth is administrated and allocated by the chief, with the support of his clan ring. Since being chief is an elective position, the chief must not antagonize too many or too influential clan members while at the same time satisfy his own household's needs. A certain measure of fairness is supposed to be achieved by this balance of influences, and a good compromise leaves all parties slightly disappointed.

Appealing to New Pavic law against fellow clan members likely is grounds for expulsion from the clan. There can be no law suits inside of a clan, only appeals to the clan ring and chief, or a motion to replace part of the ring, the entire ring and/or the chief. When anyone opens a law suit against the clan, that is a clear statement that one no longer considers themselves to be part of that clan.

Grievances against city dwellers or members of other clans are a matter of negotiation before appealing to an official court.

Orlanthi clans are exogamous - they (usually - the harvest queen marriage in MOB's scenario "Melisande's Hand" is a religious exception that allows a suitor of her own clan) send off their daughters into marriage with neighboring clans, creating a network of kinship that doesn't have any legal weight in law-suits but that will make the brothers of the women in the neighboring clan think twice about starting a feud with the people their sisters live among. In Pavis County, that is a rather limited set of options, especially with the foreigner clans (Ingilli, Indagos) between them whose marriage customs will differ. On the other hand, there is the option of marriage to city dwellers, who may not be organized in clans but who will have formed neighborhood or guild structures sufficiently similar to clans that marrying off a daughter there could further the clan's interests in the quid-pro-quo marriage alliances. The Eiskolli likely have marriage ties into the New Pavis Yelmalian community and into Sun County proper. There are also the aggregated exiles of Thieves Town (including some Karandoli clan refugees, if not an entire clan core in exile), the more respectable ones moving into Dorasar's new city, to be replaced by other exiles from both Sartar and the nomad tribes. Finally, there are the Rubble communities, Old Pavisites of various brands who have their own ancient ties as well as ties to the Indagos clan.

There is no Pavis County tribe. Instead, the elected ruler (Count) of New Pavis also acts as the head of something like a tribal federation, only with clans, the inhabitants of the new city and the settlements of the Rubble as direct constituents. Thus there is no tribal ring, but a New Pavis city ring with city families counted among the clansfolk, or strongly allied to some of the clans. The Count will have his personal followers - in the case of Dorasar, these may include former boon companions of Sarotar, or others that he attracted on his own after Sarotar's demise. These boon companions often are outsiders, but a wise count will also recruit companions from among the clans of the county, like e.g. winners or distinguished runners to among the participants of the Garhound Contest.

The Pavis Cult will act as arbiters for any legal disputes inside the city walls, but they aren't usually involved in disputes outside of the walls. Traditionally, it would have been the Champion of Pavis who would deal with external affairs, but that position remains unoccupied until the situation described in the Pavis Box, seven to ten years into the Lunar occupation of Pavis. I suppose that this is part of the duties or privileges of the Count of Pavis instead.

 

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On 2017-02-27 at 3:51 PM, Darius West said:

It is never explicitly stated what happened to the lunars left in New Pavis after the conquest of the city by Argrath.  No mention of a massive cull,  no mention of a stream of Lunar refugees crossing Prax to Occupied Sartar,  no mention of business as usual or a changing of the guard.  

I assume genocide and slavery, the way history so often goes, but that is admittedly depressing.

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As of 1625, New Pavis and Pavis County are ruled by a king who is also high priest of Orlanth for the region. He is supported by most of the Praxian Tribes, and the Pavis Royal Guard are sworn to him. He is also supported by a large number of mercenaries, adventurers, mystics, and even Tricksters. The king (or more likely his delegate) arbitrates disputes between the clans - given that he is backed by the Praxian tribes (and likely the only reason the nomads spared the city), he's not someone to be trifled with - upon his ascension, he also notably had the old Lunar spy master torn into pieces and scattered. I suspect the clans try to avoid having their new king arbitrate unless absolutely necessary. 

That being said, his primary functions are religious (the Orlanth cult) and military - he receives of course the customary revenues of the city and then in the tradition of his ancestors, spends his personal funds on building, repairs, etc.

As for the Lunars, Sor-eel was dismissed when Tatius the Bright became Governor-General (a general purge of Fazzur's friends and allies took place). The new Provincial Governor is believed to have fled the city when it fell. Or maybe before it fell. Or maybe even after Second Moonbroth. Unlike Sor-eel, he was rapacious and arrogant, and generally detested by the population. BUT he was very loyal to his superiors. But he's gone now. The Lunars in the city were plundered and pillaged, many were killed, others were taken into slavery and sold or ransomed at Pimper's Block. 

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20 hours ago, Jeff said:

As for the Lunars, Sor-eel was dismissed when Tatius the Bright became Governor-General (a general purge of Fazzur's friends and allies took place). The new Provincial Governor is believed to have fled the city when it fell. Or maybe before it fell. Or maybe even after Second Moonbroth. Unlike Sor-eel, he was rapacious and arrogant, and generally detested by the population. BUT he was very loyal to his superiors. But he's gone now. The Lunars in the city were plundered and pillaged, many were killed, others were taken into slavery and sold or ransomed at Pimper's Block. 

It was thought the Lunar governor was killed when the city was stormed by the nomads, but wily Halcyon had swapped his clothes and it was actually a hapless underling's head that ended up on a spike at the Old Gate. Halcyon and his companion Marusa later pitched up back at the Temple of the Reaching Moon in Sartar, and were said to be among the very Lunar few survivors of the Dragonrise.

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On 3/10/2017 at 1:55 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I assume genocide and slavery, the way history so often goes, but that is admittedly depressing.

I suspect that the massacre and enslavement was heavily moderated.  Obviously Gim-gim and his spy ring are on record as having been killed without mercy and a few others, but when Argrath was just Garrath Sharpsword the local sword training Orlanthi runelord, he had good connections and plenty of friends; some might even have been Lunars. Allowing a massacre to take place in New Pavis wrecks the very prize all the fighting was about.  I also doubt that many people were enslaved, as a war of liberation seems less creditable if you enslave your enemies.  There are historically two polar examples of how to run an invasion.  The Mongol way, which is "surrender or we will build a pyramid of skulls out of the citizens of your city" (full atrocity), or Godfrey de Bouillon "We treat our captured enemies with decency and honor, because that way more enemies are more likely to surrender." (Mercy and Chivalry).  Both are quite effective.  For example, Tancred de Hauteville was a very atrocity prone crusader, who burst into tears when nobody would surrender to him, only to Godfrey de Bouillon.  Both styles were effective at gaining territory quickly for different reasons.  Most commanders came somewhere between these notional poles.

On 3/10/2017 at 11:05 PM, MOB said:

It was thought the Lunar governor was killed when the city was stormed by the nomads, but wily Halcyon had swapped his clothes and it was actually a hapless underling's head that ended up on a spike at the Old Gate. Halcyon and his companion Marusa later pitched up back at the Temple of the Reaching Moon in Sartar, and were said to be among the very Lunar few survivors of the Dragonrise.

So it was Halcyon Var Enkorth of Elkoi fame who became governor of New Pavis after Sor-Eel?  Mr. "Honesty and Charisma" himself?  La creme de le commode? Whoodathunkit?  It certainly explains how everything went belly up on the frontier for the Lunars.

Edited by Darius West
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44 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I suspect that the massacre and enslavement was heavily moderated....

Pavis might be the more controlled case. But I doubt anything fun happens when the Praxian tribes conquer the Grantlands.

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

So it was Halcyon Var Enkorth of Elkoi fame who became governor of New Pavis after Sor-Eel?  Mr. "Honesty and Charisma" himself?  La creme de le commode? Whoodathunkit?  It certainly explains how everything went belly up on the frontier for the Lunars.

Yep - Halcyon replaces Sor Eel, despite lobbying by Duke Raus to take the post himself.

A few relevant excerpts about Halcyon's exploits from the Great Winter & Time of the Two Counts document:

[The Great Winter leads to food shortages] "...in Pavis, whereas before the Teelo Norri kitchen welcomed all-comers, the new Lunar governor Halcyon Var Enkorth insisted those seeking food relief must prove their names were recorded in the Paper Lists. Even then they only received a tiny millet cake that seemed to be mostly sawdust and ash, though it was said the governor had brought tremendous quantities of food with him from the Heartlands (certainly Halcyon and his entourage never stopped looking sleek and satisfied). Those refugees who made it to Corflu were bluntly informed by the Lunar garrison they had no food to spare, forcing many in desperation to take passage on Vadeli galleys, the only seafarers to visit the port during the Windstop...

...when the questers reached the city they found scores of starving refugees congregating around the locked gates. Governor Halcyon had recently imposed a ruinous entry fee that few of the desperate farmfolk or stranded nomads could afford—and even then, once inside there was no guarantee they would be fed. In a gesture of benevolence, Count Solanthos personally paid to admit all needy Solar worshippers, giving over his own gilded breastplate as surety until an equivalent sum in gold Wheels could be levied from the people of the Suntown quarter.

The food situation inside New Pavis was dire, with the municipal granaries now all but empty. Even the Lunar soldiery were on short rations, though Halcyon var Enkorth was making a fortune selling barrels of “salted mock pork” of mysterious origin. Suntown residents had been forbidden from partaking of the tainted meat, but Thandren Clubfoot advised the count that the quarter’s own private granary would soon be down to dust with the new influx of starving Sun worshippers to feed."

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A few more snippets from Great Winter & Time of the Two Counts about Governor Halcyon, in the febrile period leading up to the Second Battle of Moonbroth:

"While momentous events wracked Dragon Pass and the Holy County throughout 1624, tensions continued to simmer in Lunar Prax. The farmers of the Cradle Valley once again enjoyed a bumper harvest, but Governor Halcyon’s insatiable appetite to enrich himself was continually vexed by his superiors’ relentless demands for men, beasts, equipment and slaves, all needed for the Reaching Moon Temple project in Dragon Pass.

Though the Armistice of Prax forbade attacks on settled territory, Sor-eel’s abrupt departure with most of the Lunar garrison during the Great Winter tempted increasing numbers of nomad bands to raid along the borders. Vega Goldbreath increased patrols and vigilance in Sun County, so most of the raiders tried their luck in Pavis County or better still the Grantlands, where the Lunar forces were spread the thinnest...

...An increased reliance on mercenaries backfired, when Halcyon var Enkorth reneged on paying them what they thought their due. Even before the Great Winter the Grantlanders had led a precarious existence, and since then suffered at the hands of the governor’s pitiless tax gatherers. The Longspear Slayers and Sir Holburn’s Axe brothers simply took to plundering themselves, forcing Duke Raus and other leading landholders in the Grantlands to raise money of their own to pay them off...

...The nomad incursions grew ever more bold. Late in Sea Season, Duke Raus sought an audience with Count Invictus on his way back from Pavis. He bitterly recounted that when he told the Governor nomads were now riding with impunity through his lands, Halcyon var Enkorth said he no longer had any troops to spare for such an unimportant, far-flung outpost, suggesting if Raus was unhappy he should go hire mercenaries of his own!

In frustration, the Duke dispatched a delegation of landholders led by his daughter Lady Jezra to Furthest, there to beg for relief from Tatius the Bright..." (sea season, 1624)

Edited by MOB
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So, when are these being published?

I would like to see more published material and these seem very useful.

I am not so keen on material that is only available to a select few who quote them to make a point, despite them not being available to everyone else.

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6 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, when are these being published?

I would like to see more published material and these seem very useful.

Are they from the forthcoming Sun County revamp?

 

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On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 0:30 PM, Darius West said:

I suspect that the massacre and enslavement was heavily moderated.  Obviously Gim-gim and his spy ring are on record as having been killed without mercy and a few others, but when Argrath was just Garrath Sharpsword the local sword training Orlanthi runelord, he had good connections and plenty of friends; some might even have been Lunars. Allowing a massacre to take place in New Pavis wrecks the very prize all the fighting was about.  I also doubt that many people were enslaved, as a war of liberation seems less creditable if you enslave your enemies.  There are historically two polar examples of how to run an invasion.  The Mongol way, which is "surrender or we will build a pyramid of skulls out of the citizens of your city" (full atrocity), or Godfrey de Bouillon "We treat our captured enemies with decency and honor, because that way more enemies are more likely to surrender." (Mercy and Chivalry).  Both are quite effective.  For example, Tancred de Hauteville was a very atrocity prone crusader, who burst into tears when nobody would surrender to him, only to Godfrey de Bouillon.  Both styles were effective at gaining territory quickly for different reasons.  Most commanders came somewhere between these notional poles.

So it was Halcyon Var Enkorth of Elkoi fame who became governor of New Pavis after Sor-Eel?  Mr. "Honesty and Charisma" himself?  La creme de le commode? Whoodathunkit?  It certainly explains how everything went belly up on the frontier for the Lunars.

 Might point out many of the Lunar settlers where in fact worshippers of the Solar deities.  A Lodril  Worshiping Farmer could run and seek protection at the Sun Dome Temple. And at this point Prince Argrath would not be interesting in upsetting The Yelmalions so would allow them to seek refuge.

  Also there the Trolls to take into account. Trolls are encouraged by Kygor Litor to own non troll slaves to show the superiority of Trolls. But not many people are willing to sell Humans to Trolls as slaves . I can see a few Unscrupulous Agan Argar merchants offering to "Save" some Lunar settlers from certain death if they place themselves under their "protection".  Of course that might be  fate worse then death.

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22 hours ago, TRose said:

 Might point out many of the Lunar settlers where in fact worshippers of the Solar deities.  A Lodril  Worshiping Farmer could run and seek protection at the Sun Dome Temple. And at this point Prince Argrath would not be interesting in upsetting The Yelmalions so would allow them to seek refuge.

Good Point.  I am sure that a few Lodril worshippers here or there are the least of Argrath's worries as the new occupying power in New Pavis.  I always assumed that the new settlers would be more Seven Mothers in their inclinations, and would be less likely to get their own hands dirty than force someone else into the manual labor side of things.  There is no reason why a Lodril worshipper wouldn't move to the region in search of cheap land and "opportunity on the frontier of the empire", however.  Those "Round Lake Mountains" north of the Nine Good Giants are most likely volcanoes, perhaps a good Lodril worshiper would notice?

22 hours ago, TRose said:

Also there the Trolls to take into account. Trolls are encouraged by Kygor Litor to own non troll slaves to show the superiority of Trolls. But not many people are willing to sell Humans to Trolls as slaves . I can see a few Unscrupulous Agan Argar merchants offering to "Save" some Lunar settlers from certain death if they place themselves under their "protection".  Of course that might be  fate worse then death.

What a ghastly idea! :)

I wonder if anyone would be dumb enough to fall for it though ?  I have a sneaking suspicion that what is more likely is that the Sartarite bandits in the Big Rubble come flooding into New Pavis to join up with the Army of the Bull, while the Lunars slink off into the Rubble and wind up occupying the same squalid ruins left vacant by the Sartarites.  No doubt lives are lost in the changing of the guard (naturally).  I suppose that accepting troll "protection" in the Rubble is not unthinkable for desperate Lunar refugees.

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Hi All,

Dont forget the City Harmony spell which is working in all of Pavis County. Our Pavis PC used it and the situation was ended peacefully. That is a big game changer compared to the Sartar mainland.

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5 hours ago, Drad said:

Hi All,

Dont forget the City Harmony spell which is working in all of Pavis County. Our Pavis PC used it and the situation was ended peacefully. That is a big game changer compared to the Sartar mainland.

The City Harmony spell only works within the Rubble and New Pavis (Cults of Prax p50).  Likewise the HeroQuest equivalent (Harmony of the Parts Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p366) is part of the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire that only works within the walls of Pavis.

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On 6/28/2017 at 0:33 PM, metcalph said:

The City Harmony spell only works within the Rubble and New Pavis (Cults of Prax p50).  Likewise the HeroQuest equivalent (Harmony of the Parts Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p366) is part of the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire that only works within the walls of Pavis.

I think this is an important point.  The City Harmony spell may have prevented the massacre of the Lunars and created the climate for an orderly surrender and transition of power, just as it did when the Lunars invaded New Pavis after the Battle of Moonbroth.  The notion of Argrath presiding over an atrocity as his first military victory just doesn't sit right with his status as a hero. While the spell can't prevent the fighting outside the walls, I could easily see the Pavis Priests using it once the walls are breached and the Lunars are obviously defeated.  Quite possibly Argrath would have stitched something up with the Pavis Cult beforehand so they didn't cast the spell prematurely and ruin his victory.

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The City Harmony spell was powerless to keep Praxians from wreaking havoc inside Old Pavis during the time of the Seventeen Foes of Waha. Why should it prevent a later generation of Praxians from doing whatever they meant to do to the Lunar forces inside the city?

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The City Harmony spell was powerless to keep Praxians from wreaking havoc inside Old Pavis during the time of the Seventeen Foes of Waha. Why should it prevent a later generation of Praxians from doing whatever they meant to do to the Lunar forces inside the city?

There is no reason for the spell not to work other than personal magical defense spells like countermagic or shield, or a really bad POW vs. POW roll from the casting priest.  There is also the possibility that the 3m/pt range was not enough.  Or, both the attackers and defenders just milled around for 15min until the spell elapsed then got back to murder.  It is a pretty decent defensive spell for stopping a wall breach, but not enough to stop decent rune level adversaries.  

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