Different Magic Systems for MW?

[Celtic Viking]

Hey there,

Yes I have the PDF of Advanced Sorcery already.

In my homebrew setting there are 3 distinct forms of magic;

1] D&D style Spellcasters, they follow recipes and get the same results every time.

2] Sorcerors: They don't use spells, they just harness magic to get effects.  Sometimes called Wild Magic or Chaos Magic

3] Channelers: They beseech outside powers for magic

What BRP/RQ/MW magic systems would best cover these for me?

Thanks in advance!

[Thot]

Well, the first one is basically standard Magic World magic, isn't it?

For the second and third one, you'd have to be more specific on how it works.

 

[Sean_RDP]

I would think for Channelers, any form of Divine Magic would do the trick.  For the Sorcerers, I would actually look outside BRP to the D&D 5e Warlock, with its Invocations OR, and this is just a suggestion based on what I have done with Skaerune', make it very simple.

Sorcery can do these things:

Harm

Make a Thing

Make a Living/Unliving/Mechanical Thing

Summon a Thing

Protect Me (The Caster)

You use 1 Sorcery skill, that skill lets you do minor magic for no MP (or 1 MP) and then allows you to make use of one of the forms, (Harm, Make a Thing etc...) with the power of the spell being based on how many MP you put into it.  Spectacular things happen if you crit or if you fumble.  Very open ended, requires the GM to be good ad adjudicating costs (though a little prep work allows you to make a chart) and may take a traditional player a minute to wrap their head around how much flexibility they have, but over all I feel it should fit what you are seeking.

[NickMiddleton]

18 hours ago, Celtic Viking said:

1] D&D style Spellcasters, they follow recipes and get the same results every time.

Magic World Sorcery spells have deterministic results like this?

18 hours ago, Celtic Viking said:

2] Sorcerors: They don't use spells, they just harness magic to get effects.  Sometimes called Wild Magic or Chaos Magic

Sounds a bit like Deep Magic in Advanced Sorcery?

18 hours ago, Celtic Viking said:

3] Channelers: They beseech outside powers for magic

What BRP/RQ/MW magic systems would best cover these for me?

There is a BRP Supplement called "The Magic Book" (http://www.chaosium.com/the-magic-book-pdf/ ) which revises the four magic system from RQIII to align with the BGB; as thats very close to Magic World, it could easily be used with Magic World and one of the systems it includes is Divine Magic (sacrificing POW to a Deity for spells).

I've also used Magic World / BRP BGB Magic powered by Allegiance as a form of Divine Magic - the system is sketched in the Ulfland article in Uncounted Worlds Issue one (Uncounted Worlds #1)

Cheers,

Nick

[Celtic Viking]

Here's more details.

1] Basic spellcasting covers the spells, no problem.

2] the Sorcer idea is wild magic, they create effects, not pick from a list of spells.  That's the key, it's meant to be like the Will and the Word from the Belgariad.

3] Channeling isn't to get spells, but powers.  The one thing that drives me NUTS in D&D is that Divine and Arcane magic are just two lists of the same damn thing, spells.  I want something special, something more.

I'll look at some of your suggestions and see if any hit the spot!

Cheers!

[Nick J.]

Channeling sure sounds like summoning and binding demons/elementals/spirits and then drawing on the power they provide. You could certainly flesh it out a bit more with rules for making pacts and bargains.

[Mankcam]

If you only have the pdfs of MagicWorld and Advanced Sorcery then I'ld go as follows:

Sorcery used as-is can pretty much portray your standard Mage style character. If you want to use it to also portray Channeling, then bond it to Allegiance, and make the trappings of the spells very specific, and that way you can portray Mages and Priests using the same spell list.

If you want to portray Wild Magic then the closest thing may be using the Deep Magic rules, but that's about it. If you need a totally random spell-effect system, then just make a list of the sorcery spells and assign a dice rill, otherwise use Deep Magic.

None of these systems will be a direct conversion of port D&D magic, which is more of a feature than a flaw.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Mankcam

[Celtic Viking]

Perhaps I need to explain what I mean by wild magic or chaos magic a bit clearer.

I want to move that rock.  I don't randomly cast "Move Rock" spell, but I focus my willpower and move the rock.

So I would probably have to have a set of definers, and the more I hit and the larger the effect, the more Magic Points it would cost.

If that makes sense.

The other suggestions seem on point though.

Cheers!

[Celtic Viking]

10 hours ago, Nick J. said:

Channeling sure sounds like summoning and binding demons/elementals/spirits and then drawing on the power they provide. You could certainly flesh it out a bit more with rules for making pacts and bargains.

Tell me more please?

Pacts and bargains?

[thefub]

You may want to read through your Advanced Sorcery book. 

As stated above Deep Magic( Advanced Sorcery page 20) seems very similar to chaos or wild magic you described. The sorcerer chooses spell affects based on spheres and glyphs that manipulate the forces of magic. The system is a bit of a mess to me but I have seen some members offer some customized ideas for it. 

Another suggestion was to use summoning magic to bind demons, spirits, and elementals. Advanced Sorcery page 33 starts the chapter on the summoning arts. Binding demons allows sorcerers to use those demon's powers and abilities. It is extremely powerful and depending on your world may need some reining in.

 

 

 

[Celtic Viking]

2 hours ago, thefub said:

You may want to read through your Advanced Sorcery book. 

As stated above Deep Magic( Advanced Sorcery page 20) seems very similar to chaos or wild magic you described. The sorcerer chooses spell affects based on spheres and glyphs that manipulate the forces of magic. The system is a bit of a mess to me but I have seen some members offer some customized ideas for it. 

Another suggestion was to use summoning magic to bind demons, spirits, and elementals. Advanced Sorcery page 33 starts the chapter on the summoning arts. Binding demons allows sorcerers to use those demon's powers and abilities. It is extremely powerful and depending on your world may need some reining in.

I will give the Deep Magic a read through then.

For the summoning, I suppose it could work, if there was a way to replace the Binding with a Boon system. Sort of I pay X MP for Y result type of thing.

More reading required

Cheers!

[rsanford]

If you decide you like Deep Magic try our homebrew rules located in the downloads here called The Second Way. Provides a mix of Deep Magic and Ars Magica for a more grounded (rules based) freeform system. You can find a link in my signature.

Edited April 1, 2017 by rsanford
Because apparently I can't spell :-)

[Nick J.]

On 4/1/2017 at 9:08 AM, Celtic Viking said:

Tell me more please?

Pacts and bargains?

Well specifically I was thinking about the need for negotiation laid out in Advanced Sorcery on page 41.

"From the sorcerer’s point of view, the best thing about negotiating with a demon is that it costs no points of Power. Especially if the sorcerer fears the POW of the summoned thing, he or she should negotiate. The Chronicler plays the demon. The sorcerer should have in mind something to exchange for the demon’s services. If the negotiation succeeds, the demon then undertakes one limited task, and does it to the best of its ability. Resolve this with Bargain, Oratory, or Charisma rolls, as appropriate."

I'm definitely in the camp that wants to role-play this kind of thing out, but I suppose if one wanted to take the time, they could systematize this somehow. I haven't done so because it seems like a lot of work for not a lot of payoff, but YMMV.

[Simlasa]

On 4/1/2017 at 9:08 AM, Celtic Viking said:

Tell me more please?

Pacts and bargains?

There's also the Pact skill from MRQII/Legend... which establishes an ongoing bond between a devotee and a cult, but also in Mongoose Elric it's used for forming bonds with magical creatures like the Beastlords. They'll help you out but probably expect some favor in return.

[Questbird]

On 4/1/2017 at 1:23 PM, Celtic Viking said:

Here's more details.

1] Basic spellcasting covers the spells, no problem.

2] the Sorcer idea is wild magic, they create effects, not pick from a list of spells.  That's the key, it's meant to be like the Will and the Word from the Belgariad.

3] Channeling isn't to get spells, but powers.  The one thing that drives me NUTS in D&D is that Divine and Arcane magic are just two lists of the same damn thing, spells.  I want something special, something more.

I'll look at some of your suggestions and see if any hit the spot!

Cheers!

My 'wild magic' system is adapted from the game Maelstrom. I've written about it elsewhere on the forum:

For Channeling magic I do use spells, but I allow them to work automatically. They are powered by 1 magic point from the caster, and the rest from Allegiance points to the god.

If you want special powers from the gods you could design certain effects per individual deity. Make an Allegiance check and if successful find the difference between your roll and your total Allegiance points. 1-30: minor boon related to the deity; 31-60: major boon; 61-90: great power; 91+: avatar or direct intervention. Afterwards -- success or failure, you'd need to earn 10 more allegiance points to the god before you could try again. You'd have to make up the individual effects for each god and they could be vague or specific as you like. I think Dungeon Crawl Classics uses a system similar to this.

eg. A sea god, jealous of the land

1-30: a swarm of fish or octopi appear. They can provide food, or point the way, or carry a light load some distance

31-60: a surging current can swamp an enemy ship or provide a getaway for yours or get you out of that rip you've been dragged into

61-90: A tidal wave can destroy a ship, or a wharf, or smash a hole in a harbourside castle, or drain the beach to reveal a hidden treasure

91+ The Great Serpent himself appears and will grant you one wish

[Celtic Viking]

I remember this one from when I was doing research on HARN!  It is perfection for my Sorcery idea!  I even have that thread bookmarked and then completely forgot it existed!

Thank you

[Questbird]

You're welcome. I've spruiked the Maelstrom system for many years. I've used it successfully in Hârn and I've used it to a lesser extent in my current campaign in Nehwon, another low-magic setting.

[Simlasa]

7 hours ago, Questbird said:

I think Dungeon Crawl Classics uses a system similar to this.

 

Yeah, that might work well for something similar to DCC's 'Invoke Patron'... as well as its system of spells with random degrees of success.

[Nikoli]

Hi All,

I plan to use Magic World for Warhammer, and for that wfrp 1e feel, I've noticed that the warhammer spells work in Magic World with just a little tweaking (e.g., POW resistance rather than WP rolls; I have the hardcopy of Realms of Sorcery 1e, which is awesome).

I feel the Warhammer magic system, also with magic points, offers a fully portable system for both wizards and divine magic. First edition with Realms of Sorcery is amazing in detail and variety and is fully useable for any general sword and sorcery game.

I would use learned spells as individual skills (I've been getting my head around that notion - it's a very different mechanic than I've experienced in a long time!), starting at INT (petty spells at + 50), but allow magic points to enhance a spell roll by 5% per point. (In Warhammer, extra MPs can also enhance the roll against Willpower/POW by 5%, so this fits the resistance table in MW, too.) 

An alternative I was thinking of is that petty spells start at INT x 5; level 1 at INT x4, lvl 2 at INT x 3, etc. There are 4 levels of spells in wfrp, so INT x 1 for those. I'd still perhaps use the MP boost, but experience checks are only gained if the spell is cast successfuly even if the boost wasn't present. (So it must still roll under to gain an experience check.)

Any thoughts?

Nikoli

P.S. Ingredients could mean an automatic success. Nothing to sniff at in the heat of battle. And now that I think of it, maybe each spell as a skill is too punishing for magic users. Especially as wfrp didn't have it. I might use the general casting level (petty, lvl 1, lvl 2, etc, as separate skills). The first time they learn a spell in a lvl, they get the skill at the corresponding level. But lvl 1 casting ability is gained with a sacrifice of a POW, lvl 2 with 2 POW, etc., to control power and advance. The same for clerics. Alternatively, lore skills (like wizardry) could be tied to entry into lvls, with up to 25% for petty; 50 for lvl 1; 75% lvl 2; 90% lvl 3; 101% lvl 4. PC magic users, in Warhammer, could then start at an apprentice level on the cusp, after perhaps their first adventure, of becoming a real lvl 1 wizard. The Lore advance could trigger 3 spells at each level, pending perhaps the usual rolls and then a POW sacrifice. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Nikoli

[Nikoli]

Hi,

I've been on a rather epic (but lazy) quest: the quest to find the right kind of magic system to port into or develop for MW. I'm thinking WFRP 1e spells, but I quite like some of the RQIII flexibility (I bought the deluxe single softback, and also have the GW hardbacks - I find the older editions more evocative; maybe because the art reminds me of classic wfrp, one of the first games I played). I see MW has my base for translating other BRP-related goodies/ideas into.

I decided that I like magic users having some skill tied to their abilities, so that they feel a sense of progression, just like a player of a warrior might grow attached to seeing their weapon skill rise. I figured Arcane Lore would serve as both a knowledge roll and a casting roll, if such a roll is desired. I wanted to also include spell manipulation, but as a single skill, similar to Legend/MRQII. I felt these latter games got closest to the kind of BRP system for magic that felt best for me: streamlined and elegant, mostly. Especially when it came to manipulation. (Separate skills for duration, for example, just leaves me cold.)

Using the advanced sorcery idea of deep magic's rule of 4, I figured that the inherent manipulation possibile could be a function of POW divided by 4 plus every 25% of Arcane Lore (25, 50, 75, 100, etc). So, a magic user of POW 20 and 101% Arcane Lore could manipulate their spells for 9 points worth. I figure that using Arcane Lore, also with raw POW, in this way would introduce the CoC dynamic where ancient tomes become sought after. It also explains why a library of great magic books can be a source of tremendous power. As in CoC, reading such books will bestow a bonus to the lore skill, and darker tomes may also receive a bonus to Dark/Blasphemous Lore. (I would add Arcane Lore, Dark Lore, and Academic Lore as skills, along with a Divine Lore for clerics. Academic Lore would be general history, astronomy, etc., while Dark Lore would be demons, necromancy, etc. So a few comprehensive, streamlined skills. I'd allow academic/magic users to take two extra skills with their profession. I'd start Dark Lore for such characters at a base of their chosen Shadow allegiance, due to reading, exposure, Faustian temptation, etc.)

Dark Lore will add a dangerous twist to reading some discovered tomes or grimoires. I am currently thinking of a less dangerous Cthulhu Mythos mechanic, since in fantasy a wizard might know something of the dark (like Gandalf) without being utterly mind-blasted because of it! Maybe 1/5th of dark/blashephemous lore is taken from a max SAN characteristic....and added also to Chaos/Shadow allegiance...but I digress. My main aim is to give wizards an adventuring rationale not just tied to spells in grimoires, but to the knowledge of magic itself, which in turn has a real game effect via increasing manipulation and more (see later). I currently think that perhaps Int times 20 is the maximum for any Lore skill level, so a wizard of 17 Int could get their lore up to 340%. That would prevent the most powerful wizard being simply the one with the biggest library! (But books DO matter. A very important tome might confer as much as 2D10 to Arcane Lore after studying. I'd use CoC scales. Dark forces would kill for such a book, and not just because of the spells it contains.)

Lastly, tied also to Arcane Lore, once a character gets 101%, I figured that Deep Magic, as presented, can be used to DESIGN personal spells. (If you still like relatively fixed spells. I do, for most settings anyways.) So now the magic user can create their own spells. Or perhaps enchant items. And all tied to their increasing knowledge of magic. Each magic point used is -10% for the arcane lore spell creation roll. The player devises the effect, the name, and with the GM, the final creation roll and time is decided. (A day or a week per magic point? Depends on how much a GM wants new spells.) We now have a good system for spell design! For damage, each GM would need to scale. Our POW 20, Arcane Lore 101% wizard above could do 9 manipulations to the final spell after creation, so for base damage (before such manipulations) perhaps a function of the invested MP, so D6 plus 1 (7) or D8 plus 1 (9). Then a manipulation after might be scaled like the demon effects (1 is an extra d2, 3 a d6, etc.)  I'm less sure here. To help balance such power, perhaps an Arcane Roll to cast would be useful here, with a casting roll of minus 10% per spell manipulation. That way, great power is really only in the hands, for a while, of very learned magic users with a high lore skill to offset such powerful magics. Once again, a high lore skill becomes a major adventuring goal and also rationale for NPC power. That ancient 1000-year-old wizard is a force to be reckoned with, if he has a lore skill of 340%! He can manipulate his spells (if we imagine a POW of 30, he can do 20 manipulations in total!, and still succeed, since a 00 is the only way he'll fail. (340% equals 13 manipulations, from 13 times 25, and POW 30 equals 7, via 7 times 4. His casting roll is minus 200%, so he still has 140%! Ouch. His combined power could equal a damage spell similar to a small bomb. Like Saruman, he could blow a hole in a castle or fortress wall, or perhaps a dragon,  if he desired. But still at significant MP expenditure. He's dangerous, but not unstoppable.)

So, the above are just ideas. Perhaps at 200% Arcane Lore a wizard can use Deep Magic now on the fly, rather than just in research. (Or 200% is enchanting items via Deep Magic, and then 300% is fully freeform Deep Magic.) 

Truly, such knowledge of Arcane Lore leads to both terrors and wonders!

Any thoughts are appreciated!

Nikoli

[Nikoli]

Hi,

I neglected to add that the specialisations of Deep Magic would also develop after 101%, so they enter with 2 as usual, but gain an extra 1 per 25%. So the knowledge for spell creation develops, too. Likely the base damage/healing will need to be scalled to POW divided by 4 and perhaps Arcane Lore divided by 25, rather than MP, since the latter reduces as specialisation increases. So the base damage can be the die type suggested by the base manipulations possible to any magic user. But manipulations proper can still occur after casting the spell. Here we are concerned with the base level. Again, this may need tweaking; by adding a casting roll of -10% per manipulation, I think we can balance it. Reading these tomes, in CoC, took several months, so it takes time for lores to rise. I would not allow experience checks for lores. Only research. Such books are extremely valuable, awkward/heavy, and require time to study. Finding one on an adventure becomes a source of wonder and danger. They now must be read, too, prior to accessing their spell content, which are learned separately, too.

Nikoli