QuickStart 2 attacks in one round?

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Just a quick question on the new RQG QuickStart rules. How do multiple attacks work in the new rules? Are they the same as RQ classic requiring over 100% to perform more then one attack? 

[Jason D]

You can attack twice in a round if your skill is 100% or over (before modifiers or augments), and both attacks have to be at 50% or higher. The second attack happens at the SR of the first plus the second.  

Edited June 18, 2017 by Jason Durall

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Great thanks Jason, same as RQ2 in this respect 

[styopa]

23 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

You can attack twice in a round if your skill is 100% or over (before modifiers or augments), and both attacks have to be at 50% or higher. The second attack happens at the SR of the first plus the second.  

The implication of the question is probably melee attacks, but I believe you CAN have multiple attacks a round with below 100% skill if you're using a missile weapon and have enough SR, yes?  

QS doesn't have it, but I believe RQG is duplicating the structure from RQ2 where - aside from staff slings, xbows, and javelins(oddly?) - missile weapons fire as many times as you can squeeze into 12 SR. (?)

So it would be:

DEX SR (release first shot)

+ 5* (I think it was 3 in RQ2, I could be wrong) to ready next shot - RQG says this is the 'ready' penalty for any weapon, but that seems long for simple reload?

+ DEX SR to release next shot.

So even someone with a relatively Average DEX SR of 3 could shoot at 3 and again at 11 (if the 'ready' for an arrow  is 5) or if the reload is only 3, a Dex SR 2 toon could fire thrice a round at 2, 7, and 12.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

15 minutes ago, styopa said:

The implication of the question is probably melee attacks, but I believe you CAN have multiple attacks a round with below 100% skill if you're using a missile weapon and have enough SR, yes?  

Good point - The QuickStart doesn't seem to mention whether you can fire a missile weapon more then once per round regardless of weapon skill %. Presumably you can if it follows the RQ2 structure?

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Good point - The QuickStart doesn't seem to mention whether you can fire a missile weapon more then once per round regardless of weapon skill %. Presumably you can if it follows the RQ2 structure?

FWIW we'd dispensed with that in our RQ3 game as making missile weapons way too powerful.  (Cops set the 'threat distance' of a person with a knife at 7m for a *very* good reason.)  Now we use missile weapon SR as simply when their shot goes like every other weapon.  It's much more consistent than giving missile weapons a unique ability to roll SR and get multiple attacks.

I'm pretty sure RQG is going to follow RQ2 in that practice, though.

[Eric Christian Berg]

It is explicitly mentioned that you can make multiple attacks with a ranged weapon if you can squeeze it in the 12 strike ranks and no mention is made of needing a high skill. I don't recall anywhere that it said you could make multiple attacks with a melee weapon with high skill.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Eric Christian Berg said:

It is explicitly mentioned that you can make multiple attacks with a ranged weapon if you can squeeze it in the 12 strike ranks and no mention is made of needing a high skill. I don't recall anywhere that it said you could make multiple attacks with a melee weapon with high skill.

OK so that IS the RQ2 model.  The QS may not have stated it, but the being able to split attacks above 100% is a thing.  So ostensibly having missile attack over 100 means you could ALSO split those individual attacks which...I don't even know where one would go with that.  

[Mankcam]

In the 80s/90s we mainly played using RQ3 strike ranks, so we only had 10 strike ranks per melee round, not 12 like RQ2. Most times I have played Glorantha in the last decade I have used the BGB for my core mechanic rules (just added RQ magic, etc), and we used the BGB's default DEX rounds initiative system. So I'm a bit hazy on the Strike Rank system now, however I don't mind the concept. Returning to it certainly feels very 'RuneQuesty'.

In RQ I always thought you could make any number of actions (or attacks) per melee round, just as long as as you acted on your SR. So the quicker and more unencumbered characters tended to get two to three actions by the end of the melee round, whereas the more heavily armoured combatants only tended to get one to two actions within that round. Seemed to work well.

Then if you had an attack skill over 100% then you could split your attack action into several separate attacks. I didn't think it made any difference whether it was a melee or a missile weapon. We may have been playing it incorrectly. This sounds a bit clunky if you have to split up attacks over 100% into 50% chunks ...

Edited June 20, 2017 by Mankcam

[Psullie]

The RQ2 model allows multiple attacks as long as no attack is less than 50% and all attacks can be preformed within 12 SR. So if you had high enough SIZ & DEX and armed with a Pole Axe for example your SR could be as low as 1, at even above average SIZ & DEX your SR would be 3 and therefore get an attack at 3, 6, 9 & 12 if their skill was high enough. At 125% you would have two at 63%, needing 150% to get three attacks and so forth. 

The same counts for bow attacks except that you were allowed two missile attacks to start with at normal chance, if your missile skill was above 100% you would get 1 extra attack (assuming SR available) but all three attacks are at half value.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 hours ago, Eric Christian Berg said:

It is explicitly mentioned that you can make multiple attacks with a ranged weapon if you can squeeze it in the 12 strike ranks and no mention is made of needing a high skill. I don't recall anywhere that it said you could make multiple attacks with a melee weapon with high skill.

Ah yes, I thought i had read a hint of that somewhere in the Quick-start. Its in the example on p7 "Multiple Activities outside of Melee". It certainly indicates that multiple Missile fire is possible without having over 100% skill. Sounds similar to RQ2. 

8 minutes ago, Psullie said:

The same counts for bow attacks except that you were allowed two missile attacks to start with at normal chance, if your missile skill was above 100% you would get 1 extra attack (assuming SR available) but all three attacks are at half value.

Thanks - thats interesting I hadn't remembered the specifics of RQ2 missile fire.

[Psullie]

10 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Ah yes, I thought i had read a hint of that somewhere in the Quick-start. Its in the example on p7 "Multiple Activities outside of Melee". It certainly indicates that multiple Missile fire is possible without having over 100% skill. Sounds similar to RQ2. 

Thanks - thats interesting I hadn't remembered the specifics of RQ2 missile fire.

Paid a bod yn dwp you made me question myself - so I dug out my RQ2 book and check, perhaps this was a house rule after all, the original rules just state (for bows) S/MR which means as many attack as SR allowed. As it takes 5 SR to 'reload' with a DEX of 15+ you would fire on a 1, 6 & 11 at no penalty!

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

10 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Paid a bod yn dwp you made me question myself - so I dug out my RQ2 book and check, perhaps this was a house rule after all, the original rules just state (for bows) S/MR which means as many attack as SR allowed. As it takes 5 SR to 'reload' with a DEX of 15+ you would fire on a 1, 6 & 11 at no penalty!

Thanks for checking! That along with the example in the Quack-Start does seem to indicate that the new rules have gone with RQ2 on this particular ruling.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Jason D]

15 hours ago, styopa said:

The implication of the question is probably melee attacks, but I believe you CAN have multiple attacks a round with below 100% skill if you're using a missile weapon and have enough SR, yes?  

Yes. 

It does make missile weapons faster to use than melee, but this is offset by the fact that firing into melee is extremely risky, and firing while engaged in melee is extremely difficult. 

[styopa]

6 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

Yes. 

It does make missile weapons faster to use than melee, but this is offset by the fact that firing into melee is extremely risky, and firing while engaged in melee is extremely difficult. 

But doesn't really address why missile weapons are so astonishingly more lethal, ie 2x the strikes (or more) in the span of a round, all else being equal. (Firing into or during melee is sort of a canard, needlessly complicating the basic question.)

I'm not trying to change your mind, you and I simply differ on this.

[g33k]

On 6/18/2017 at 7:26 AM, Jason Durall said:

You can attack twice in a round if your skill is 100% or over (before modifiers or augments), and both attacks have to be at 50% or higher. The second attack happens at the SR of the first plus the second.  

Wait... are you saying that, if your Augment takes your  sub-100% skill  to 100%+, you cannot split the Augmented skill to two attacks at 50%+ each?

Hrm.  That strikes me as the less-heroic, less-Awesome choice.

If that is indeed the Official Rule for the core game... I think I've just found my 1st House Rule.

 

[jongjom]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

But doesn't really address why missile weapons are so astonishingly more lethal, ie 2x the strikes (or more) in the span of a round, all else being equal. (Firing into or during melee is sort of a canard, needlessly complicating the basic question.)

I'm not trying to change your mind, you and I simply differ on this.

If you are not firing into a melee then you are firing at someone firing back at you? Balanced lethality?  

Rushing the enemy over open ground leads to big losses. Lethal, yes as always?

[styopa]

Just now, jongjom said:

If you are not firing into a melee then you are firing at someone firing back at you? Balanced lethality?  

Rushing the enemy over open ground leads to big losses. Lethal, yes as always?

Again, that sort of misses the point?  Your skill isn't adjusted nor is your speed of attacks based on whether you're in danger or not.

Mary is shooting a target with a missile weapon.  Bill is stabbing a target with a melee weapon.  In any span of time, why does Mary get (at least) usually 2x the chances to hit the target as Bill?  For every video you show me of some archery expert firing arrows really quickly, I'll point out that simply stabbing is still faster.

Claiming Bill should intrinsically get less attacks because he's prancing around with footwork and stance and grip etc is a pretty hand-wavy rationalization; fine, charge him an extra SR per opponent he's facing, if he wants the option to be able to dodge or parry that opponent in melee.

Personally, it seems simplest to me to simply treat missiles (and spells, for that matter) the same way we treat any other weapon/action - you can do it, once per round, when your SR comes up.  Missile weapons will still have an advantage over melee at range, since they'll get to fire earlier (since they don't have to spend SR moving), and during every round the melee are closing, realistically.  If you're an expert (over 100% skill) then you can split attacks and get 2 attacks, because you're an expert.

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

But doesn't really address why missile weapons are so astonishingly more lethal, ie 2x the strikes (or more) in the span of a round, all else being equal. (Firing into or during melee is sort of a canard, needlessly complicating the basic question.)

I'm not trying to change your mind, you and I simply differ on this.

This goes waaaaaay back when the old school consensus was bows fire twice per round. 

Now melee combat in RuneQuest has always taken the view that the dice roll was the culmination of feints, ducks and lunges. SR was an abstraction which allowed in some cases to give faster, longer reach weapons an advantage. When not actively trying to stay alive knocking off two or three arrows in 12 seconds is feasible if trained.

[styopa]

13 minutes ago, Psullie said:

This goes waaaaaay back when the old school consensus was bows fire twice per round. 

Now melee combat in RuneQuest has always taken the view that the dice roll was the culmination of feints, ducks and lunges. SR was an abstraction which allowed in some cases to give faster, longer reach weapons an advantage. When not actively trying to stay alive knocking off two or three arrows in 12 seconds is feasible if trained.

EXACTLY my belief too.  I simply don't buy it based on "tradition in RPGs says so" or worse "we had to do it because in D&D people shot 2 arrows a round and nobody wanted to be an archer in RQ if we didn't let them do it here too".

Sure, firing 2-3 arrows in 12 seconds is reasonable, I'd totally agree.  

Then again a competent swordsman can stab 12+ times in that same span.  

"Feints ducks and lunges" are mechanically subsumed in your DODGE roll to avoid their attack.  Even if we grant that somehow that dancing around would eat all but one meaningful attack, it wouldn't even faintly apply if one was, say, attacking someone from behind?   From a blind direction?   What if I'm wearing heavy plate armor (or am heavily magically buffed) and would rather get a bunch of attacks a round instead of wasting it on the postulated feints, ducks, and lunges?   What about a host of creatures/monsters that don't feint, duck, or lunch: zombies, skeletons (pretty much any undead), werewolves who don't believe you have anything that can hurt them, mindless chaos nasties, etc ad infinitum?

(Heck, charge a character a SR every time they dodge or parry - that's even pretty reasonable, considering a shower of blows really would prevent you doing anything else, unless you ignored at least one.)

I don't believe there's anything justifying that trope (of missile fire faster than melee strikes) OTHER than rpg tradition.

Edited June 20, 2017 by styopa

[Psullie]

I get what you're saying

Would you prefer - make as many attacks as SR (melee the same as missile) or limit to one attack unless 100% + (missile as melee). 

having the same mechanic regardless does seem more BRP - interested to hear others view on this...

[jongjom]

Using the same rule for missile weapons as for hand held ones makes sense to me. But I am not an archer! 

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, styopa said:

EXACTLY my belief too.  I simply don't buy it based on "tradition in RPGs says so" or worse "we had to do it because in D&D people shot 2 arrows a round and nobody wanted to be an archer in RQ if we didn't let them do it here too".

Sure, firing 2-3 arrows in 12 seconds is reasonable, I'd totally agree.  

Then again a competent swordsman can stab 12+ times in that same span.  

"Feints ducks and lunges" are mechanically subsumed in your DODGE roll to avoid their attack.  Even if we grant that somehow that dancing around would eat all but one meaningful attack, it wouldn't even faintly apply if one was, say, attacking someone from behind?   From a blind direction?   What if I'm wearing heavy plate armor (or am heavily magically buffed) and would rather get a bunch of attacks a round instead of wasting it on the postulated feints, ducks, and lunges?   What about a host of creatures/monsters that don't feint, duck, or lunch: zombies, skeletons (pretty much any undead), werewolves who don't believe you have anything that can hurt them, mindless chaos nasties, etc ad infinitum?

(Heck, charge a character a SR every time they dodge or parry - that's even pretty reasonable, considering a shower of blows really would prevent you doing anything else, unless you ignored at least one.)

I don't believe there's anything justifying that trope (of missile fire faster than melee strikes) OTHER than rpg tradition.

I believe both my wife (who as an alternate for the German Olympic Archery team does know her stuff) and my old sifu (who also introduced me to RQ2) would disagree. It is worth keeping in mind that within a melee round, the melee combatant is performing their attack for the entire round and the strike rank indicates the order in which it occurs. An archer firing into a melee can potentially shoot multiple times in a single round, but unless the combatant is alone, the archer either has to do an aimed shot (to hit a specific person, not a specific location) or is firing blindly into a crowd. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Jeff
Clueless brain hiccup

[styopa]

12 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I get what you're saying

Would you prefer - make as many attacks as SR (melee the same as missile) or limit to one attack unless 100% + (missile as melee). 

having the same mechanic regardless does seem more BRP - interested to hear others view on this...

Since the RQG rules are supposed to be about simplifying things, I would expect the logical answer is simply: 1 per round, across the board, unless one can split attacks.

PERSONALLY, I don't like blanket prohibitions, and the 'rolling SR' is a nice mechanic in its place.  I'd rule that if you declare during statement of intent*:

- all-out attack: if a toon is all-out attacking, they can use the 'rolling SR' in a round.  During that round, they cannot move more than a single step, nor dodge, nor parry.

- balanced action: attack once on your SR, allows you to move up to half, and parry/dodge once vs any opponent at full, subsequent parry/dodges at -20%, cumulative <- this is the 'normal action'

- all-out defense: move half but no attacks at all, can parry/dodge 2x in the round at full, subsequent at -10% per, cumulative

- mostly move: can move full, but can only attack once or defend once (this allows charging as a thing, 

- all-out move: can move 3x, no attack or dodge

...but that may be too complicated for where we want to go with RQG.

*(These sorts of things tend to metagame advantage NPCs more than PCs, since NPCs "don't care about tomorrow"...so I'd say NPCs could only do balanced, mostly move, or all-out move unless they have some special ability like berserking, etc.)

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, styopa said:

Since the RQG rules are supposed to be about simplifying things, I would expect the logical answer is simply: 1 per round, across the board, unless one can split attacks.

PERSONALLY, I don't like blanket prohibitions, and the 'rolling SR' is a nice mechanic in its place.  I'd rule that if you declare during statement of intent*:

- all-out attack: if a toon is all-out attacking, they can use the 'rolling SR' in a round.  During that round, they cannot move more than a single step, nor dodge, nor parry.

- balanced action: attack once on your SR, allows you to move up to half, and parry/dodge once vs any opponent at full, subsequent parry/dodges at -20%, cumulative <- this is the 'normal action'

- all-out defense: move half but no attacks at all, can parry/dodge 2x in the round at full, subsequent at -10% per, cumulative

- mostly move: can move full, but can only attack once or defend once (this allows charging as a thing, 

- all-out move: can move 3x, no attack or dodge

...but that may be too complicated for where we want to go with RQG.

*(These sorts of things tend to metagame advantage NPCs more than PCs, since NPCs "don't care about tomorrow"...so I'd say NPCs could only do balanced, mostly move, or all-out move unless they have some special ability like berserking, etc.)

That's not the approach we will be taking.