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Theyalan Language


Tindalos

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Out of curiosity, I've been looking at the various examples of Theyalan that can be found across various sourcebooks, specifically those which are given defined meanings, and trying to work out the rules and such behind them.

I'm posting what I've got here, in the hopes of A: it being interesting/useful to anyone else, and B: someone knowing something that I've missed, or having other thoughts that would improve things.

Guide to Glorantha

Argrath			-    Liberator (459)
Mralothenyi		-    Pig Hollow (709)
Penentelada		-    Penentel's Camp (709)
Seriasdova		-    Temple of Serias (709)

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes

Dar			-    Chief/Tribal King (84)
Huscarl			-    Hall Man (18)
Kanvulvretan		-    Dog Scratching (161)
Larnsting		-    Free/Changer/Liberator (133)
Murnulvretan		-    Cat Scratching (161)
Nymie			-    Counsel (282)
Shepelkirt		-    Poison Blood (104)
Tarkarlings		-    High Free People (76)
Wergild			-    Man Debt (217)

As well as these, the book also mentions some other words. The title of the Prince of Sartar means "first" (84), and that the older version of thane means "horse men" (208).

Also in Sartar, we have the remnant peoples, absorbed into the Vingkotlings. Their names are given meanings, although it's hard to know if any of them are actually in Theyalan or another language. The Nalda Bin at least seem to be related (if purely through Nalda's similarities to Ernalda) and I suspect they may be from the Durevings. The Korsto Viv and Aranto Viv are likely to share a source, given the shared word Viv ("people")

Remnant People

Buf Gart		-    Hungry Women (SKoH 41)
Ched Durkel		-    Strings (SKoH 41)
Jars Antanggi		-    People of the Shadows  (SKoH 41)
Karantuel		-    Cloud Folk (SKoH 41)
Korsto Viv		-    People of the Rivers (SKoH 41)
Nalda Bin		-    Stick Farmers (SKoH 41)
Aranto Viv		-    Axe People (SKoH 41)
Eryain Ins		-    The Blonds (SKoH 41)
Forosto Jann		-    Deadly Archers (SKoH 41)

Sartar Companion

Abylgani		-    Wrathful Ones (153)
Afrasaronafra		-    The River of River (63)
Unani			-    Pleasant Ones (153)

The Book of Heortling Mythology

Autero			-    Goldentongue (144)
Carl			-    Free (88)
Ches Takal		-    Chalk Man (45)
Golagolar		-    Fighting Man of the Armies (168)
Hara			-    Beloved (2)
Infrendel		-    Seat of Brass (91)
Makla Mann		-    Unfailing Bondsman (182)
Orlanth dovar		-    Orlanth the Faithful (148)    
Sevsalsal		-    Great Poison Breath (168)
Tarumath		-    High Wind (136)
Ura			-    Pleasant One (145)
Varanorlanth		-    Wild Orlanth (37)
Venebain		-    Attacker from Above (169)

Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses

Besengen		-    That Big Guy over there (39)
Dejess			-    Lies (21)
Desdel			-    Surprise (30)
Dungaria		-    Mother of the Widow (30)
Esrolia			-    Grainland (21)
Ezel			-    Her Home (14)
Irinioori		-    High Water Mark (23)
Kena			-    Headrest/Pillow (21)
Notchet			-    Everyone (22)
Orenvulvretan		-    Stone Scratching (22)
Tereen			-    Chosen of Ter (23)
Terliol			-    Blessed of Ter (23)

Miscellaneous

Alda Chur		-    Far Place (Wyrms Footprints #15 40)
Meldek			-    Emptied/Sorcerer (Strangers in Prax 65)

Despite the age of Strangers in Prax, both Emptied and Meldek have been used in modern source material (Sartar: KoH 209, and Sartar Companion 86 respectively) although never explicitly linked together. However, it's likely still valid.


These next three books are no longer canon, but still contained examples of Theyalan words. Several (the spirits/agents of retribution) are used in Sartar: Kingdom of heroes, but untranslated.

Thunder Rebels

-ing			-    Children of/Descendent of (156)
Banumbroling		-    Wind Fist (85)
Belnan			-    Clodfoot (82)
Driman			-    Heavy (205)
Esnan			-    Earth Thief/Gulper (83)
Haruling		-    Impest (82)
Hedkoring		-    Flint Slinger (83)
Manmolaning		-    Breath Stealer (247)
Ohorakoring		-    Storm Fury (247)
Yavorling		-    Bolter/Jag/Sparker (81)

Storm Tribe

Duro			-    Win (10)
Kara			-    Draw/Tie (10)
Reflarting		-    Blinder (55)
Vanda			-    Lose (10)
Yoskati			-    Warmth Stealer (55)

Imperial Lunar Handbook 1

Orshil			-    First Axe (13)
Shilkot			-    Master of Axes (14)
Tvengkot		-    Master of Battles (14)


There's also an article and a post of Jeff's which seem useful. Certainly Ernaldaravandi, Tekravand, Viskuranth, and Viskuvath are used in other places (Thunder Rebels for the first two, and Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and the Book of Heortling Mythology for the latter)

Ernalda's Holy Days

Babeestervandi		-    Babeester's Holy Day
Ernaldaravandi		-    Ernalda Holy Day
Esrolaravand		-    Esrola's Holy Day
Orlanthharvandar	-    Orlanth High Holy Day
Tekravand		-    Shroud Holy Day
Mahomravand		-    Mahome's Holy Day/Fire Celebration
Voriaravand		-    Voria's Holy Day

Talastaring Orlanth Cults

Tarvathlinpor		-    Place of the High Breath
Viskuranth		-    Son of the Spike
Viskuvath		-    Breath of the Spike

 

From these, we can determine a few simple building blocks of words:

Ada			-    Camp (From Penentelada)
Afra			-    River (From Afrasaronafra)
Anth			-    Son/Child (From Viskuranth)
Dov			-    Faith/Holy (From Orlanth dovar and Seriasdova)
Hus			-    Hall (From Huscarl)
Kan			-    Dog (From Kanvulvretan)
Kar			-    Free (From Carl and Tarkarling)
Mahom			-    Fire (From Mahomravand and the goddess Mahome)
Murn			-    Cat (From Murnulvretan and the god Murni)
Nald			-    Farmer (From Nalda Bin, and the goddess Ernalda)
Oren			-    Stone (From Orenvulvretan)
Ravand			-    Celebration/Holy Day (From Mahomravand and a bunch of others)
Tar			-    High (From Tarkarlings, Tarvathlinpor, and Tarumath)
Tek			-    Shroud (From Tekravand, and the goddess Ty Kora Tek)
Ulvretan		-    Scratching/Writing (From Kanvulvretan, Murnulvretan, and Orenvulvretan)
Varan			-    Wild (From Varanorlanth)
Vath			-    Breath (From Tarvathlinpor and Viskuvath)
Visku			-    Spike (From Viskuranth and Viskuvath)

To make a quick note on Anth, although found as Ranth in Viskuranth, -anth is given as a common suffix in Orlanthi names in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes (26), often found as -lanth or -vanth. It's also found as -antha in Erantha Gor, and Glorantha -- suggesting the term is unisex.


We also have a couple of suffixes:

-een			-    Chosen of (From Tereen)
-ing			-    Children of/Descendent of (As previously mentioned)
-liol			-    Blessed of (From Terliol)
-linpor			-    Place of (From Tarvathlinpor)

 

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You need to filter out the real world Old English terms: for example, Huscarl, wergild, carl, -ing, Hus...

Many Old English words are used in canon material, such as thane. Carl means '(free) man', and entered Old English from Old Norse; Karl was a son of Rig and considered the progenitor of peasants.

 

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

You need to filter out the real world Old English terms: for example, Huscarl, wergild, carl, -ing, Hus...

Many Old English words are used in canon material, such as thane. Carl means '(free) man', and entered Old English from Old Norse; Karl was a son of Rig and considered the progenitor of peasants.

 

A good point, a large number are from real world terms.

Although Carl is an interesting case. There's enough words featuring "Kar" already, and we know from Tarkarling that it means Free. I'm prepared to accept Karl as a false cognate (As Theyalan has no C in its scripts)

If wanting to include Huscarl as is, I've been assuming that Hu means sword (as in Hu the Sword, and Humakt) which could make them "Hus Karl" or Swordmen. This is merely an assumption though, and not backed up by anything concrete.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

One thing to consider is that the Theyalan might be a bit of a creole from the various peoples they have absorbed.    Thus you can have two words meaning the same thing because they have different origins.

True enough, certainly at the moment this is more like collecting different words in Romance Languages. While there's similarities, there will also be important differences between Esrolian and Sylilan Theyalan.

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I think given Orendara, the Queen "daughter" of Ernalda, (a composite of "Oren" and feminine form of "Dar"), Oren would most likely mean "Earth".

That makes a great deal of sense.

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6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Although Carl is an interesting case. There's enough words featuring "Kar" already, and we know from Tarkarling that it means Free. I'm prepared to accept Karl as a false cognate (As Theyalan has no C in its scripts)

Many 'Theyalan' words and names have Old English roots: Garhound for example, means 'spear dog'.

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If we regard Anglo-Saxon as simply an archaic form of English, those terms simply denote an antiquated language. Antiquated compared to what, though? Would the Orlanthi use ancient Vingkotling or even earlier forms, possibly Storm Tongue ones, amidst their current dialect? And would they be aware of that?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If we regard Anglo-Saxon as simply an archaic form of English, those terms simply denote an antiquated language. Antiquated compared to what, though? Would the Orlanthi use ancient Vingkotling or even earlier forms, possibly Storm Tongue ones, amidst their current dialect? And would they be aware of that?

Barring a little fast rhetorical footwork, the nomenclature around "Auld" Wyrmish and "New" Pelorian suggests that the sages at least are conscious of languages as evolving structures. They also know several dialects that are extinct outside historical records. They probably bicker about vowel shifts as much as a given story requires.

The evolution from Storm to Sartarite is probably mostly mutually intelligible throughout (RQ percentage), although people will choose more "archaic" or "modern" forms to reflect their goals -- or in some situations, not have access to the full spectrum due to background. Everyday people probably recognize variations between everyday instrumental language, poetic vocabulary, "rustic" speech that preserves non-mainstream forms, court talk, ritual Storm.

Edited by scott-martin
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11 hours ago, Tindalos said:

True enough, certainly at the moment this is more like collecting different words in Romance Languages. While there's similarities, there will also be important differences between Esrolian and Sylilan Theyalan.

Sadly, what you are collecting isn't modern Theyalan (north or south) but names dating to different periods. 'Modern' names (such as Jonstown, Wilmskirk etc.) which are only a century or two old are recognizable, whilst older names such as Garhound are a little more antiquated, but still understandable. Older names are relics of earlier times.

Throughout, modern names are as understandable to us as they would be to the 'current inhabitants', but older names are far less accessible. English and Old English are used to denote this (huh, some Dara Happan gods have Latin names, but again that's because whilst they are old, they aren't ancient).

We know that mortal languages drift in Glorantha but without knowing the age of terminology, you cannot reconstruct a single language from names.

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

If we regard Anglo-Saxon as simply an archaic form of English, those terms simply denote an antiquated language.

Have you read Anglo Saxon? I tried when I was far younger and it is a different language to English.

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49 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Have you read Anglo Saxon? I tried when I was far younger and it is a different language to English.

I have, and yes, it is a different language to modern English, separated in time, but it also bears some similarity to the successor languages of its neighbors, the saxons and danes, which means that my German and Norwegian skill came in helpful. I have few problems reading Shakespeare (more context than linguistics), and only mild ones reading Chaucer.

It still is a language with quite unknown vocabulary and shifts of meaning. My knowledge of Latin is somewhat useful when I encounter written Italian or Spanish, but lets me down when encountering spoken Spanish or Italian. Middle High German or ancient High German are about as hard to decipher as is Anglo-Saxon. The various forms of (modern) Frisian aren't much better, though.

I did sit down and figured out a translation of Alfred's Anglo-Saxon Orosius for the voyages of Ottar and Wulfstan (for the Viking edition of Free INT. #7, about 20 years ago). I will admit that I cheated, using a Danish and a French translation to help me over some hard to decipher passages, but I returned to the Anglo-Saxon source for most of that transcription.

I haven't tried to use old High German or Middle High German vocabulary in modern context. Part of the reason is the scarcity of the source material and my unfamiliarity with most of it. Another part is that most Middle High German is high medieval background rather than tribal. What I have seen of Wulfila's gothic bible was beyond any recognition, but the different alphabet is a major factor in that.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, Roko Joko said:

ela = land

Genertela = Genert's Land

Peloria = Land of Oria*

 

* no, I don't want to hear about your Pela and your Pelora

There are a few region-name endings all over Glorantha.

-ela is the most common. It might be western or Theyalan in origin and is definitely used by Tradetalk.

-os as in Brithos, Slontos, Teshnos, Ralios, Tiskos, Sentanos, Tinaros, Kimos, Teleos, Mirelos, Nolos, Pasos, Vralos - most of these are coastal lands (Ralios on Lake Felster)

-ar as in Aggar, Jolar, Kothar, Talastar, Tastolar, Gardufar, Esvular, Volsaxar (not quite Sartar and Balazar, however, since this is also the persons' name form)

-sor as in Tanisor, Mortasor, possibly only -or - then also Dorastor, Oranor, Orninior, in older sources sometimes Kralor

-ia as in Peloria, Maniria. Esrolia, Ramalia, Wenelia, Kustria, Karia, Carnania, Gaskallia, Garbulia, Erigia, Brolia  - often formed from a goddess' name, possibly a possessive form, but could be a takeover from a Latin form of making a place name

-land as in Caladraland, Corolaland, Heortland, Orlanthland, Jorstland - obviously a composite with the English term.

-ali as in Ditali, Estali - sounds more like a tribal nomiker than a region, like Enerali, Pendali, Enjoreli

 

Regions may not always be known by their native names, but named by intrepid discoverers or traders.

 

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10 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are a few region-name endings all over Glorantha.

-ela is the most common. It might be western or Theyalan in origin and is definitely used by Tradetalk.

-os as in Brithos, Slontos, Teshnos, Ralios, Tiskos, Sentanos, Tinaros, Kimos, Teleos, Mirelos, Nolos, Pasos, Vralos - most of these are coastal lands (Ralios on Lake Felster)

-ar as in Aggar, Jolar, Kothar, Talastar, Tastolar, Gardufar, Esvular, Volsaxar (not quite Sartar and Balazar, however, since this is also the persons' name form)

-sor as in Tanisor, Mortasor, possibly only -or - then also Dorastor, Oranor, Orninior, in older sources sometimes Kralor

-ia as in Peloria, Maniria. Esrolia, Ramalia, Wenelia, Kustria, Karia, Carnania, Gaskallia, Garbulia, Erigia, Brolia  - often formed from a goddess' name, possibly a possessive form, but could be a takeover from a Latin form of making a place name

-land as in Caladraland, Corolaland, Heortland, Orlanthland, Jorstland - obviously a composite with the English term.

-ali as in Ditali, Estali - sounds more like a tribal nomiker than a region, like Enerali, Pendali, Enjoreli

 

Regions may not always be known by their native names, but named by intrepid discoverers or traders.

 

I would say that -ela and -ia are the names of lands, from the Land Goddesses (Daughters of Genert and Gata), -os, -or and -ar are probably the name of the daughters of these land goddess with Genert, or even their daughters.

-land seems to be named after other deities, not land-related.

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9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

-ela and -ia are the names of lands, from the Land Goddesses (Daughters of Genert and Gata),

I'd buy this in general but even here we see constructions that break the rule: Jonat-ela, land of the mortal hero Jonat. Granted that's a realm formed in modern times so they're looking back for name systems.

Within the archaic West we also see -sket and more rarely -sten (young Ar(g)at described as "Prince of Mannsten") but these are probably constructions to filter out of any pure Theyalan lexicon.

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51 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I'd buy this in general but even here we see constructions that break the rule: Jonat-ela, land of the mortal hero Jonat. Granted that's a realm formed in modern times so they're looking back for name systems.

-ela appears to be the most common way to say "land of", and the continent names Genertela, Pamaltela and Vithela show that it doesn't have to be the land goddess the name is derived from.

Umathela certainly isn't named after a goddess, and Seshneg and Frontem are alternative western names for Seshnela and Fronela. No idea where Jrust- came from. Kralorela doesn't really offer a Kralora, but we get Krala as goddess of rice (analogous to Pela and Esra).

Pralorela, Rathorela, Luathela, Oroninela, Helerela all are named after male deities (with the caveat that Hsunchen ancestors come with the same stem and a female form as well). There is Keetela aka Ganderland.

I have also seen Brithela, Ernaldela, Valindela, and other ad-hoc -ela forms as alternative to other, more usual forms.

That said, we have also seen Brillantia for Land of Brilliance, Stygia for the Autarchy, Telmoria in northern Ralios.

I think we should leave the land goddess debate over in the Guide Group Read forum.

51 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Within the archaic West we also see -sket and more rarely -sten (young Ar(g)at described as "Prince of Mannsten") but these are probably constructions to filter out of any pure Theyalan lexicon.

-ket, -wal and probably -sten are city names, and apply also to the city state rural areas. Along with Frontem and Seshneg, it appears that Western likes to end on consonants. See also Danmalastan, Endernef, Zerendel, or male names for westerners.

 

What about my observation that -os usually implies a shore?

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38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What about my observation that -os usually implies a shore?

First, yeah, I knew it was sticky stuff conflating the variant colony name systems with larger territories -- where does a large -ket become a small -ela? why all these different words for "town?" -- but that's probably going to require a deep reading of the epic of Damol to really tackle. Maybe in a few months.

(And yeah, the -s- in -sket and -sten is probably a possessive. Now that you mention it, I wonder if it buys us anything to read "Danmal" as a corruption of the historical "Damol," in which case things will get utterly weird.)

When I saw the -os list my first thought was the way "Acos" can be used as both the name of the cosmic god (here the Law) and the creation itself: while it's true that the cosmos is bordered on all sides by shores of chaos, it seems to be more directly indicative of the way the palace and its resident refer to each other. There's also the prevalence of -os constructions in coastal Pamalt(ela) and the East where we don't know a lot of land goddess names or the land goddess system may not apply. (Tabling that one for the other thread if needed, but who is "Krala?")

The distinctions between Nele(os) and the modern Nele(omi) -- much less "Nolos" -- have been haunting me lately as well, so there's another data point. (Also: "But we of Neleoswal are not of Seshneg, even though are lands lie within the borders of the goddess Seshna, for we pay our tithes and loyalty to the king of Brithos still.”)

I wonder whether the hypothetical and accursed Vadelite homeland took an -os or an -ela. There is a "Vadela" in the genealogies but as you note, "Brithela" dominates when the land was connected to the continent via Seshnela (Malkion's expulsion path?) and only becomes "Brithos" as it sinks. Maybe -os is the archaic indicator of "island," in which case "Teshnos" may reflect navigator error or a misattribution from Trowjang or one of the other islands. Now it's going to drive me nuts finding all the archaic names of Trowjang and Melib so we can compare.

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13 hours ago, Joerg said:

-ela is the most common. It might be western or Theyalan in origin and is definitely used by Tradetalk.

Given its usage in Revealed Mythology for several Malkioni terms/varients, I'd certainly say this is a western ending. Primarily used for the case of "x's land", Genertela/Gennerela, Soruvela (Land of the Devil), Walwindela (the Glacier)

Probably adopted in general thanks to the Middle Sea Empire.

Western also has -stan as a term for land, found in Danmalastan, Damolstan, Mornastan, and possibly the Teshnan Wokistan. Which is another case of a real world suffix being used.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

-os as in Brithos, Slontos, Teshnos, Ralios, Tiskos, Sentanos, Tinaros, Kimos, Teleos, Mirelos, Nolos, Pasos, Vralos - most of these are coastal lands (Ralios on Lake Felster

Interesting, this would explain the change of Brithela to Brithos, when it became an Island during the floods.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

-ia as in Peloria, Maniria. Esrolia, Ramalia, Wenelia, Kustria, Karia, Carnania, Gaskallia, Garbulia, Erigia, Brolia  - often formed from a goddess' name, possibly a possessive form, but could be a takeover from a Latin form of making a place name

We know that Esrolia is Grainland, this would make "Esrol" grain, (with Esra being a name based on a diminutive?)

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

-ket, -wal and probably -sten are city names, and apply also to the city state rural areas. Along with Frontem and Seshneg, it appears that Western likes to end on consonants. See also Danmalastan, Endernef, Zerendel, or male names for westerners.

Ket seems to mean a fortified place, as Ketordelvis is given as the name of the Citadel of Thought in the Middle Sea Empire (page 4).

 

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3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

When I saw the -os list my first thought was the way "Acos" can be used as both the name of the cosmic god (here the Law) and the creation itself: while it's true that the cosmos is bordered on all sides by shores of chaos, it seems to be more directly indicative of the way the palace and its resident refer to each other. There's also the prevalence of -os constructions in coastal Pamalt(ela) and the East where we don't know a lot of land goddess names or the land goddess system may not apply.

 

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

(Tabling that one for the other thread if needed, but who is "Krala?")

Without checking my old index, I seem to recall her being mentioned as rice mother in the RQ3 material, either in Gods of Glorantha in the list of Grain Goddesses, or in Genertel Book.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The distinctions between Nele(os) and the modern Nele(omi) -- much less "Nolos" -- have been haunting me lately as well, so there's another data point. (Also: "But we of Neleoswal are not of Seshneg, even though are lands lie within the borders of the goddess Seshna, for we pay our tithes and loyalty to the king of Brithos still.”)

It is entirely possible that Neleos was named after "our sea" or its deity.

I was thinking of that quote from Hrestol's Saga when I wondered whether Seshnela really was a part of Gennerela or a part of Danmalastan sundered from the mainland by the Neliomi Sea. After all, Ladaral's Mountain appears to be the source of power for Sogolotha Mambrola after the Waertagi imploded it (like they later did Mt. Turos in what became Lake Oronin), and drawing a line from there to Magasta's Pool certainly seems to place Seshneg on the Danmalastan triangle. There was talk of the sunken land bridge to Brithos, too, although that may have been a tradition of the Expulsion Walk instead.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I wonder whether the hypothetical and accursed Vadelite homeland took an -os or an -ela. There is a "Vadela" in the genealogies

That's not a regional name, but simply the female form of Vadel, promoted to the ancestress of the four peoples who preceded the Malkioni in Brithos. Linguistically, I would go for Vadelia if I had to make a regional name out of that personal name.

(The Middle Sea Empire offers yet another way to make a regional name from a personal name: (Vyi)Mornastan. - I see that @Tindalos pointed this out already. Damolsten might be just a variant pronunciation of this.)

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

but as you note, "Brithela" dominates when the land was connected to the continent via Seshnela (Malkion's expulsion path?) and only becomes "Brithos" as it sinks. Maybe -os is the archaic indicator of "island," in which case "Teshnos" may reflect navigator error or a misattribution from Trowjang or one of the other islands. Now it's going to drive me nuts finding all the archaic names of Trowjang and Melib so we can compare.

Mostly Fethlon, after the name of the jungle - IIRC the Troll Pak maps had this. Verenela (used in the Hero Wars Introduction to Glorantha) appears to have fallen out of favor. A couple of Eastern names for the greater precedessor like Abzered are offered in Revealed Mythology. Sechkaul is mentioned in the Guide.

 

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

We know that Esrolia is Grainland, this would make "Esrol" grain, (with Esra being a name based on a diminutive?)

We get Esra as the barley goddess in Thunder Rebels, with Pelora as wheat goddess and Suchara as rye goddess.

Esrola is one of the parthenogenic daughters of Asrelia, one of six according to Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses, one of three in Thunder Rebels. There, she is the mother of all grain goddesses rather than Ernalda. In another reckoning, Esrola is a daughter of Ernalda, possibly by Genert. I have seen Pela rather than Pelora for wheat, too - especially sincce Hon-eel managed to associate Pelora with maize. Astonishingly, Pelora doesn't have any rice association, despite the map on p.302 in the Guide.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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41 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Without checking my old index, I seem to recall her being mentioned as rice mother in the RQ3 material, either in Gods of Glorantha in the list of Grain Goddesses, or in Genertel Book.

She's in Gods of Glorantha. There's also Miyo the Rice Mother described in the guide, and Peloria's got Everina as the rice goddess there.

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We get Esra as the barley goddess in Thunder Rebels, with Pelora as wheat goddess and Suchara as rye goddess.

Esrola is one of the parthenogenic daughters of Asrelia, one of six according to Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses, one of three in Thunder Rebels. There, she is the mother of all grain goddesses rather than Ernalda. In another reckoning, Esrola is a daughter of Ernalda, possibly by Genert. I have seen Pela rather than Pelora for wheat, too - especially sincce Hon-eel managed to associate Pelora with maize. Astonishingly, Pelora doesn't have any rice association, despite the map on p.302 in the Guide.

Interestingly, a number of different sources note different crops for each goddess.

Grain		GoG		BoHM		SKoH/TR		Guide
Barley		Frona		Esra		Esra		Pelora
Oat		Esrola		Esrola		Usara		-
Rye		Seshna		Suchara		Suchara		-
Wheat		Ralia		Fresala		Pelora		-

Pela's interesting, as in Dara Happa she's associated with Barley, while she was viewed as Pelora by the Orlanthi commentator.

Meanwhile HQ Glorantha notes that Pelora's the general goddess of grains for Northern Orlanthi, while wheat is her speciality; with Esra fulfilling the same role in the south with Barley as her speciality.

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

After all, Ladaral's Mountain appears to be the source of power for Sogolotha Mambrola after the Waertagi imploded it (like they later did Mt. Turos in what became Lake Oronin),

These people sure blow up a lot of sacred mountains. Kind of makes me wonder who Urtiam was and who really killed him, but that's undoubtedly a whole other quagmire.

I see "Teshnon" dominating archaic documents (one possible typographic error has "Teshnow"). One reference to "Melos" struck out and replaced with "Melib." Plenty of Kralor as ancestral king of Kralorela but no Krala in sight, so that may be an interpolation. Ernaldela appears as the regional name encompassing Slontos, Wenelia and the modern Maniria -- I don't care if she was once only a land goddess who came east and made good, she's the queen of the world now. 

And @Tindalos "ket" as fortification is brilliant. I wonder if what we call "the Castle Coast" is more formally Ketos.
 

Edited by scott-martin
ketos
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7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

She's in Gods of Glorantha. There's also Miyo the Rice Mother described in the guide, and Peloria's got Everina as the rice goddess there.

Interestingly, a number of different sources note different crops for each goddess.


Grain		GoG		BoHM		SKoH/TR		Guide
Barley		Frona		Esra		Esra		Pelora
Oat		Esrola		Esrola		Usara		-
Rye		Seshna		Suchara		Suchara		-
Wheat		Ralia		Fresala		Pelora		-

Pela's interesting, as in Dara Happa she's associated with Barley, while she was viewed as Pelora by the Orlanthi commentator.

Meanwhile HQ Glorantha notes that Pelora's the general goddess of grains for Northern Orlanthi, while wheat is her speciality; with Esra fulfilling the same role in the south with Barley as her speciality.

 

There is always a danger trying to rely upon scholars to finely categorize the divine. Especially since crop type is not necessarily the core distinction between the various land goddesses.

Reading several of these threads is a wonderful inspiration for me into to the various errors the God Learners likely fell afoul of. 

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13 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is always a danger trying to rely upon scholars to finely categorize the divine. Especially since crop type is not necessarily the core distinction between the various land goddesses.

Reading several of these threads is a wonderful inspiration for me into to the various errors the God Learners likely fell afoul of. 

Naturally enough. Variation and difference of opinion is almost certainly standard.

And of course, likely something that causes rivalry between neighbouring peoples when they don't agree on it.

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