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lokamayadon

Black sun / blood sun

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Hello everybody

I am Very confused by what I have read about the black sun and blood sun and I am looking for links between them and with other entities 

So all inspiration or knowledge from this community is welcomed

1) black sun seems to be known as basko by the troll but sandy said that "the black sun might be à part of tyram". Is not tyram an anti god ? A chaos god ? I am confused that uz can be linked with this kind of god

2) is thère any links (mythological I mean) between black and blood sun ?

3) what is thé blood sun and why it seems not known elsewhere exept the Kingdom of ignorance ?

4) be free to share fun ideas about those cults. I try to give them some importance in my herowars so any inspiration (even of epic scales) are welcome ! For example I want to link the black sun\blood sun with the black moon and it should be à part of the "Big plan" of some chaos guys

Thanks à lot

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17 minutes ago, lokamayadon said:

1) black sun seems to be known as basko by the troll but sandy said that "the black sun might be à part of tyram". Is not tyram an anti god ? A chaos god ? I am confused that uz can be linked with this kind of god

Anti-Gods are not Chaotic Gods.  The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below.  The Gods opposing them, the Parloth, are the Gods of the Sky and Above.  When Chaos came, many of the Chaos Gods were associated with Night and Darkness etc and so were classified as Anti-Gods.  But Antigods are still not chaotic.

Tyram is a Chaos God.  He or she does not appear in revealed mythologies or Vithelan mythology as she or he is a God Learner deity (or even a God Learner construct).  The God Learners were infamous for stitching together deities from many mythologies into one super-deity.  So when Sandy said that Basko might be a part of Tyram, he is referring to this.

The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic.  However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did.  These people would be a) regarded as very evil by the human and uz worshippers of the Black Sun b) hunted down and slaughtered on sight or courted assiduously depending on their attitudes towards evil and c) proof of the God Learner's perfidy.

 

17 minutes ago, lokamayadon said:

2) is thère any links (mythological I mean) between black and blood sun ?

The Black Sun claims to be the heir to the Blood Sun.  The Blood Sun accepts this after the Black Sun saved them from killing themselves during the Gods War.

17 minutes ago, lokamayadon said:

3) what is thé blood sun and why it seems not known elsewhere except the Kingdom of ignorance ?

The Blood Sun was originally the worship of the Sun with the rites of blood-letting and ritual dismemberment.  Elements of it may be known elsewhere but it is only in the Kingdom of Ignorance that such a philosophy coalesed into a developed religion.

In recent times, it has spread elsewhere to the Lunar Empire and the Eastern Isles.  I think that with the rise of the Red Moon, the Blood Sun worshippers have re-interpreted it as the Blood Sun rather than the Sun itself.  Similarly the Black Sun worshippers may interpret the Dark Side of the Moon as the real Black Sun.  With the recent arrival of caravans from the Redlands, their madness has just gotten real.

 

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The divide between Darkness and Chaos is a rather thin membrane. A lot of Chaos creatures or deities are also creatures or deities of Darkness, like Bagog (originally a Darkness Beast deity), Krarsht (underground), Vivamort (hurt by the sun) or Thanatar.

The trolls have a history of fighting Chaos, and of losing part of their population to it (cave, sea and mountain trolls all have the Chaos taint and lost quite a bit of their previous nobility as mistress race or dark trolls). They still are sufficiently relaxed to tolerate these victims of Pocharngo in their midst. Other than some of the children of Kyger Litor and Zorak Zoran, I know of no specialized Chaos fighters among Darkness deities - Argan Argar is a general defender of Esrola and the surface dwellers rather than a dedicated Chaos fighter. Tolat and Shargash are destroyers and robbers with no regard for the exact nature of their victims. Neither does Humakt demand of his followers to hunt Chaos, his concern are only undead, whether Chaotic or from other sources.

 

I am not quite certain whether there isn't a connection between the Red Planet and the Blood Sun.

The Uz may be able to claim worship only of the Darkness aspect of that deity. There are Lunar trolls, too. And "Chaos that hasn't harmed uz" needn't be an enemy.

 

I think that either Black or Blood Sun are based in the myths about the Greater Darkness or maybe Lesser Darkness or the Gray Age. By the nature of the world in the Greater Darkness, the myths about that time are fragmentary and disjointed only, allowing no consistent greater picture to observe except lineally for a given population or location (how things went from bad to worse, until...). The main theme is loss and unpleasant survival tactics.

 

The Blood Sun is in all likelihood known by other names elsewhere. Hon-eel's maize questing might have tied it into the Lunar Empire, or the connection may have been there all along, only unrecognized - who is to say? It is quite likely that the upcoming Artmali enterprise in Fonrit will develop or re-discover links to the Blood Sun in their pursuit of chaotic allies, and possibly through old Tolat connections. The Pujaleg are another place where having a Blood Sun sounds like a good idea, and who knows what the lesser adpara peoples like the Andinni are up to. Then there are possibilities for Red Vadeli connections, too, and the great unknown Chaos erupting from the Nargan Desert.

You should take a look at the history of the Fifth Wane, aka Hon-eel's Wane. And there is a mastermind behind the changes in Chaos threats that are emerging gradually - schemes that may have been in place for decades or centuries, but triggered to relevation by recent world-shaking events like the Dragonrise.

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49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Tyram is a Chaos God.  He or she does not appear in revealed mythologies or Vithelan mythology as she or he is a God Learner deity (or even a God Learner construct).  The God Learners were infamous for stitching together deities from many mythologies into one super-deity.  So when Sandy said that Basko might be a part of Tyram, he is referring to this.

Whether Tyram or his son (or portion, or whatever - sometimes these distinctions are meaningless for conventional deities like Orlanth, even more so for chaotic ones), there was a Sky Terror overcome by Orlanth - one of only two victories against Chaos that I can find in Orlanth's myths, the other being the Westfaring encounter with the Lesser Kajaboori fighting the uzlord of the west.

 

There are Adpara (antigods) that qualify as Chaos deities, but there are plenty which are only the Eastern negative view on ordinary Gloranthan deities that don't conform with their order. The entire Sea Pantheon with very few exceptions are labeled as antigods.

 

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic.  However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did.  These people would be a) regarded as very evil by the human and uz worshippers of the Black Sun b) hunted down and slaughtered on sight or courted assiduously depending on their attitudes towards evil and c) proof of the God Learner's perfidy.

Is there any proof that Tyram was "discovered" by the God Learners, or is this just a deduction?

There were lots of desperate alliances forged in the worst parts of the Gods War, and I doubt that the Artmali and Vadeli were the only ones openly allying with Chaotic entities. Several Adpara races like the Huan-to are on the record, too.

 

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Blood Sun was originally the worship of the Sun with the rites of blood-letting and ritual dismemberment.  Elements of it may be known elsewhere but it is only in the Kingdom of Ignorance that such a philosophy coalesed into a developed religion.

Blood letting needn't be limited to Ignorance. I see some potential with other Red Baddies like the Shadzorings of Alkoth or the Red Vadeli, although the Vadeli wouldn't have worshipped. Their slaves might have been forced to do so, however.

The Pujaleg vampire bat might have been friendly to a non-bright sun, too.

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

In recent times, it has spread elsewhere to the Lunar Empire and the Eastern Isles.  I think that with the rise of the Red Moon, the Blood Sun worshippers have re-interpreted it as the Blood Sun rather than the Sun itself.  Similarly the Black Sun worshippers may interpret the Dark Side of the Moon as the real Black Sun.  With the recent arrival of caravans from the Redlands, their madness has just gotten real.

I think Hon-eel's research in the region may have pioneered this, see above. Blood letting and earth worship aren't really that distant, either.

We don't have proof that Ernalda is anti-Chaos. She is only very against losing her domain to chaotic destruction, and as such has a few cleansing magics.

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22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Whether Tyram or his son (or portion, or whatever - sometimes these distinctions are meaningless for conventional deities like Orlanth, even more so for chaotic ones), there was a Sky Terror overcome by Orlanth - one of only two victories against Chaos that I can find in Orlanth's myths, the other being the Westfaring encounter with the Lesser Kajaboori fighting the uzlord of the west.

We might have to start listing references.  Tyram and the Sky Terror do not appear in the Book of Heortling Mythology or King of Sartar.  Tyram does appear in the Guide as:

Quote

Tyram
The Sky Tyrant
Tyram was at the head of the Chaos horde that
invaded the Sky. For a time he gained ground,
even forcing Dayzatar back. However, finally
Orlanth defeated him with his thunderbolts
and cast Tyram from the Sky. 

Guide p704

The Sky Tyrant is a name of Akorgat in revealed mythologies (p89, p93, p95 and p108).  There is another mention of Tyram in the Belorden Fragments

Quote

Third, Bes Gezos, the son of Tyram, plucking among
the ruins of Agant Faraltilion 

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p196

Belorden (a companion of Harmast) mentions that when Orlanth was in the same place, he saw the Sky Terror.  Hence Tyram as a name entered Orlanthi mythology sometine in the Dawn Age from an unknown place.

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Is there any proof that Tyram was "discovered" by the God Learners, or is this just a deduction?

It's a deduction.  Actually a fairly explicit statement of what was in either Lords of Terror or Drastic; Chaos but those are now post-canon.

Tyram exists before the God Learners (cf the Belorden Fragments) but is only listed as someone's father as opposed to being an active god in his own right.  The Guide reference is said to have come from the Notebook of Baldrus, the Black Reader of Belstos.  Since Tyram shares an title with Akorgat and is largely unknown in Heortling mythology, blaming his potency on the God Learners seems an easy step.

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Thanks to Both of you. Much clearer for me now !

"You should take a look at the history of the Fifth Wane, aka Hon-eel's Wane. And there is a mastermind behind the changes in Chaos threats that are emerging gradually - schemes that may have been in place for decades or centuries, but triggered to relevation by recent world-shaking events like the Dragonrise"

Yes !!! Exactly what I expect to develop in my campaign but not so easy to find good and original inspirations (my players have a lot of expérience and played several games before in différent universes so a too classical story will be boring for them)

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Anti-Gods are not Chaotic Gods.

Anti-Gods are not *necessarily* Chaotic gods. But Chaotic gods are almost certainly anti-gods. 

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below. 

No, the anti-gods are what people inside the Eastern Isles consider to be gods incompatible with 'good' mysticism, where goodness is somewhat arbitrarily defined. And many of them are gods of Night and Below, or Illusion and lies, etc.

But importantly the Anti-Gods includes both gods who seem perfectly good and benign (the 'Noble Wrongs') other than being associated with a non-mystic magic path (eg the gods of orthodox sorcery and shamanism), and gods who embody a magically effective but 'wrong' approach to mysticism, both of which categories often have nothing to do with night or the below (though not always - the leading non-mystic shaman traditions of the East Isles are necromantic)

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Tyram is a Chaos God.  He or she does not appear in revealed mythologies or Vithelan mythology as she or he is a God Learner deity (or even a God Learner construct). 

Tyram is not an Eastern name, but can be considered for most purposes to be the same as the Eastern anti-god Akorgat (both have the title 'Sky Tyrant' and lead the Chaos invasion of the Sky). The very Dara Happan focus of the Tyram myths as they appear in the Guide, but the mention of Orlanth, makes me think he was originally a Dara Happan or Pelorian deity, a minion of Kazkurtum or similar, but merged with Orlanthi myth - maybe by the God Learners, maybe earlier. Probably part of Yuthuppan myth. I don't think Tyram is a construct invented in whole by the God Learners. The story about Vakalta in hell seems to be part of the same cycle (not sure if Bodastu is an Eastern version of Vakalta or not). 

Akorgat is also the founder of a 'wicked' martial arts tradition, one that only uses killing blows.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic.  However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did. 

I agree that the Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic. But it is Illusionary (and as such a broken misunderstanding of mysticism), and it is *allied* with Chaos magically, and so is problematic. 

The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic.  However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did. I think many East Islanders would argue that the Black Sun lost its power in the Earth (and its alliance with with Chaos) when Avanapdur fell. Now we can tell the difference, and we know its just Illusionary. 

I think quite possibly the Black Sun was manifest in the Sky during the reign of Avanapdur, but now it is cast down and disproved it is known in the East Isles as the Black Moon and found only in the dream world. And during the reign of Avanapdur it was, as Sandy says in Forgotten Secrets, a giant all seeing eye in the sky, all pupil=hole in the sky. Now you only see that in nightmares (and when I get around to running my East Isles game, it will be about stopping its return to manifestation in the waking world) 

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10 minutes ago, davecake said:

Anti-Gods are not *necessarily* Chaotic gods. But Chaotic gods are almost certainly anti-gods. 

Rather than going through other people's explanations and risk adding nothing, you would be better off responding to the original question.

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

No, the anti-gods are what people inside the Eastern Isles consider to be gods incompatible with 'good' mysticism, where goodness is somewhat arbitrarily defined. And many of them are gods of Night and Below, or Illusion and lies, etc.

My statement  "The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below." is still correct.  Vith has two wives - Laraloori who is associated with day and Gebkeran who is associated with night.  From Laraloori came the Gods/Parlothi and from Gebkeran came the Antigods.  That's the original division - the rest is theological development through mythology and history.

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

But importantly the Anti-Gods includes both gods who seem perfectly good and benign (the 'Noble Wrongs') other than being associated with a non-mystic magic path (eg the gods of orthodox sorcery and shamanism), and gods who embody a magically effective but 'wrong' approach to mysticism, both of which categories often have nothing to do with night or the below (though not always - the leading non-mystic shaman traditions of the East Isles are necromantic)

I feel the Noble Wrongs were not among the original antigods but people and gods of neighbouring lands to Vithalash who contested with Vith.  They were confounded and their lands became part of the Eastern Isles and at the same time interpreted as other parts of Glorantha.  Their identification as antigods is the first modification to the original definition of antigods.

I do not feel it meaningful to speak of a non-mystic magical path at this point of time when the Eastern Isles own mythology makes it clear that mystical introspection only really began much later in the late Golden Age (the Sages Rivalry).  It also embeds the outdated HeroWars terminology in a particularly inelegant manner within glorantha. A better way to look at it would be to consider Vithelan mythology as revealed in Revealed Mythologies as being the end product of their theological development from the original Early Golden Age understanding of Vith being the progenitor of the Gods of Night and Day.  

Martalak for example would not be the god of Orthodox Sorcery but more likely IMO to be the God of a culture that lived in the west parts of Vithela (or even Teleos) which was noted for sorcery, alchemy and charm-making.  It is only much later that he becomes synonymous with the Malkioni.  Similarly for Festanur and Ombardaru.  Later when the Sages started developing the foundations of their mysticism, they projected the unbalanced forms of magic (magic that precludes contact with Vith or Oorduren) as being the magic of the Noble Wrongs even though many of these practices may have been used by the original followers of Vith.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The entire Sea Pantheon with very few exceptions are labeled as antigods.

Kahar is not an anti-god. I think there are probably a few other exceptions - Daliath maybe? The ancestors of the Ludoch? 

Peter does a pretty good job of making the case that Tyram was known to the Orlanthi in the first age (which certainly could have been any time from the Unity Council on when they gained knowledge of Dara Happan myth and begun integrating it with their own). That the Belorden Fragments only mention him as the father of Bes Gezos doesn't indicate that Tyram was an unimportant foe - if there was the myth of Orlanth fighting Tyram, so it makes sense that Orlanth would later meet the son of a deity whose father he had destroyed earlier. Bes Gezos could easily be a part of the Sky Terror that separated when he fell (like as Yelm did). Agant Farailtion is somewhere in the West - probably in the West of Genertela, roughly speaking between the Nightwood and the Sea. 

It is probably, as we know it today, a God Learner combination of three or four myth cycles: an Orlanthi myth about fighting a sky demon, possibly even Ragnaglar, a Pelorian (probably Yuthuppan) myth about an evil god that invaded the Sky and drove Dayzatar out; a (Western? Ralian?) myth that interacts with the Lightbringer Quest about a fallen Sky Demon in a chaos blasted landscape; and an Eastern myth about Akorgat the demon that invaded the Sky during Avanapdurs reign. Some of these myths were understood to be related in the First Age - probably the Akorgat myth was not connected to the Tyram myth until the God Learners. 

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21 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My statement  "The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below." is still correct. 

But its not actually correct - they are descended from Gebkeran its true, but the Sheradpara are considered in some cases to have severed that connection. At best it is like claiming that Humakt is an Air god - true in some very specific ways, but incorrect in most of the ways that matter. At worst it is like claiming sons of Orlanth as being Earth deities because of their mother. Descent is not identity. And worse, the same reasoning classifies every God  (Parloth) as being of Day and the Above, even though they have quite explicit other portfolios like Animals and Plants (including those that are explicitly tied to the land), which is even more misleading. 

 

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Rather than going through other people's explanations and risk adding nothing

So I'm prepared to take the chance that by merely clarifying that which is pretty misleading, I'm adding something, especially as think I do add things later in the same post. 

32 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's the original division - the rest is theological development through mythology and history.

If you are trying to answer the question directly, answering it as if a few thousand years of theological development and history had not occurred is not the most helpful approach, IMO. 

The ontology of antigods is not the same as their ancestry, except in certain simple ancient myths. The theory of their patrimony is less important than how the term is used (especially when you get into later myths like that of Govmeranen, who is either the son of the anti-god Dogsalu, or the son of anti-god who became a god, but is certainly not an anti-god himself). 

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I feel the Noble Wrongs were not among the original antigods but people and gods of neighbouring lands to Vithalash who contested with Vith. 

I think that is a valid way to think about it, even though the myths themselves all claim that the three noble magical antigods all learnt their core powers before they left Vith's house, and only developed them elsewhere (that is to say, its literally wrong in the myths, but there are often useful insights to be taken from a euhemerist approach. 

But the question of how exactly we reconcile very primal myths is both arguable and largely irrelevant to, as you say we should prioritise, answering the question asked. Is the issue that the ancient peoples contested with Vith, or that the other methods of magic were known by the peoples of the East as their mythology developed and mysticism proved its superiority to other paths? How would we even try to definitively answer that, and what difference would it make to the modern use of the term anti-god anyway, given that the idea of anti-god seems to have clearly developed past the point of simple genealogy by the end of the Green Age/Creation Cycle anyway?

52 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I do not feel it meaningful to speak of a non-mystic magical path at this point of time when the Eastern Isles own mythology makes it clear that mystical introspection only really began much later in the late Golden Age (the Sages Rivalry).

You'd prefer to base discussion of modern Gloranthan cults only on myths about a distant time before individual human consciousness? (though personally I'd claim that mystical introspection begins with Oorduren, if we choose to take Eastern mythology as a linear record)

54 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A better way to look at it would be to consider Vithelan mythology as revealed in Revealed Mythologies as being the end product of their theological development from the original Early Golden Age understanding of Vith being the progenitor of the Gods of Night and Day.  

Why? By focussing only on the genealogy of the gods and ignoring other later myths and development in terminology, it you are doing the opposite - you are trying to define terms by the starting point of their theology, not the end product. It comes across somewhat as trying to define Eastern mythology the way simple theists would see in (in terms of genealogy of the gods) rather than the way mystics would see it (where a lot of it must be understood as metaphor for consciousness, quite explicitly, and the myth records the development of mystic thought). And I'm not sure what is the point of that - you kind of end up with what Eastern myth would look like if mysticism wasn't central to it. 

 

57 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Martalak for example would not be the god of Orthodox Sorcery but more likely IMO to be the God of a culture that lived in the west parts of Vithela (or even Teleos) which was noted for sorcery, alchemy and charm-making.  It is only much later that he becomes synonymous with the Malkioni.

I agree, Orthodox was a bad choice of term, as its at least doubly overloaded in that context. Un-illumined, plain, simple, or strict sorcery would all be better terms? Martalak would be identified with eg Zzabur  by the God Learners, but to the East Islanders he is simply the god of plain sorcery that does not perceive the mystic truth that sorcery conceals. Similarly Festanur might be identified with Bamat (Pamalt or Amuron) but practically is simply the great shaman. I don't think Ombardaru is even significantly thought of as the god of the North at all, but simply as the god of the indigenoous low priesthood. 

And of course, later again in their conceptual/mythic development, we seen that shamanic (eg Ven Forn) or theist (eg Mairnali) can be integrated with mysticism as long as you recognise its illusions. 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

 Later when the Sages started developing the foundations of their mysticism, they projected the unbalanced forms of magic (magic that precludes contact with Vith or Oorduren) as being the magic of the Noble Wrongs even though many of these practices may have been used by the original followers of Vith.

Perhaps yes - certainly Ven Forn and later Ven Fornism gives us the idea that the followers of Vith would often also investigate other forms of magic. 

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Detouring into the "nature of the Adpara" still is sort of on-topic, I guess.

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My statement  "The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below." is still correct.  Vith has two wives - Laraloori who is associated with day and Gebkeran who is associated with night.  From Laraloori came the Gods/Parlothi and from Gebkeran came the Antigods.  That's the original division - the rest is theological development through mythology and history.

That's simplifying Eastern deities a bit too much by making all of them descendants of Vith through one of his wives, or foreigners.

However, there are three sets of Avanparloth, with different dualities/composits, and there are entities that result from interaction of those other Avanparloth couples (Majadan/Iste and Erdires/Yothenara for sure, less sure about Chaquandarath and Genderatha). 

 

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I feel the Noble Wrongs were not among the original antigods but people and gods of neighbouring lands to Vithalash who contested with Vith. 

Then who were the Adpara children of Vith and Gebkeran that mingled with the Parloth at Vith's humble hut in the Celestial Mountains?

Dogsalu isn't, he is manifested fear. He provided leadership to Adpara (who may be unnamed children of Vith and Gebkeran), but he wasn't a sibling of theirs.

And that makes Govmeranen no offspring of Vith, either, but of Yothenara and something else.

Given this origin of Dogsalu, I am unable to trace Bandan back to Vith and Gebkeran. He claims to be a cousin, but Yothenara has only Iste and Oorduren as siblings, and Dogsalu doesn't have any kin. "Cousin" is distinct from half-brother.

Bandan could be one of the many children of Iste (think of the Wild Man myth among the Kralori). Possibly with a daughter of Gebkeran and Vith, making him a second generation half-adpara under your definition. Or the cousin could be a much less direct relationship, only a distant acknowledgement of kinship.

 

Later on we learn that Parloth like Veldru did offend Vith, too (RM p.80). Parloth as Adpara weren't free of failure and rebellion.

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They were confounded and their lands became part of the Eastern Isles and at the same time interpreted as other parts of Glorantha.  Their identification as antigods is the first modification to the original definition of antigods.

What children of VIth and Gebkeran can we name, then?

 

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I do not feel it meaningful to speak of a non-mystic magical path at this point of time when the Eastern Isles own mythology makes it clear that mystical introspection only really began much later in the late Golden Age (the Sages Rivalry).

Does it? Both Govmeranen and Venforn study under Oorduren, and gain from recognizing Atrilith.

 

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It also embeds the outdated HeroWars terminology in a particularly inelegant manner within glorantha. A better way to look at it would be to consider Vithelan mythology as revealed in Revealed Mythologies as being the end product of their theological development from the original Early Golden Age understanding of Vith being the progenitor of the Gods of Night and Day.  

Rereading the first myths with genealogy in mind, Harantara daughter of Ivaro would be the granddaughter of Oro, and thus a great-granddaughter of Vith and Laraloori.

 

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Martalak for example would not be the god of Orthodox Sorcery but more likely IMO to be the God of a culture that lived in the west parts of Vithela (or even Teleos) which was noted for sorcery, alchemy and charm-making.  It is only much later that he becomes synonymous with the Malkioni.  Similarly for Festanur and Ombardaru.  Later when the Sages started developing the foundations of their mysticism, they projected the unbalanced forms of magic (magic that precludes contact with Vith or Oorduren) as being the magic of the Noble Wrongs even though many of these practices may have been used by the original followers of Vith.

The Keltari war has the Babadi with their metal creations as one of the antigod tribes. Babadi is the eastern name for Mostali.

Martalak might well be a synthesis of Vadeli and Kachasti/Kachisti, the two westernmost tribes of Danmalastan. I don't think that there were any meaningful "west parts of Vithela" other than overlap with the other realms. If there was a singular Spike, its slopes would have been where those western parts could have been. If there were several such instances (four, one for each composite of myths, and maybe a central axis), the Vithelan Spike would have been there.

"Orthodox sorcery" is an interesting and slightly misleading phrasing. Zzaburite sorcery? Mostali sorcery? Are there other types, or are the other types derivatives of these? (Or did Zzabur steal from those and then claim primacy? Just owning/incarnating the Rune doesn't necessarily mean that one has access to all the variations of it.)

 

Demons etc. appear to form from abstract concepts. Some gain object permanence, like Dogsalu, others don't. I guess it is the gift of the power of Creation and the restrictions implied in that which creates Gloranthan object permanence.

But illusionary food satiates and energizes as long as the illusion lasts - repeated intake of illusionary lemons would be fine against scurvy. (Deter the spirits of scurvy from taking a home in the gums of the afflicted person, if you want to say it in an animist way.)

The gift of permanence that Avanapdur granted the great mass of its non-permanent followers wasn't all bad - I am convinced that without Avanapdur, the East would have suffered a lot more than it did through the Greater Darkness. Avanapdur provided a form of stability when permanent reality failed to do so. Letting go of the bounty of the dreams was a painful but necessary step in the awakening. In the end, Avanapdur destroyed itself by seeking (and gaining) exposure to the Ultimate.

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

But its not actually correct - they are descended from Gebkeran its true, but the Sheradpara are considered in some cases to have severed that connection.

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, really. They severed the connection to the mass of the Adpara, but I don't see how they severed their ancestry. As with Govmeranen, the dark side of the ancestry remains a defining feature.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

At best it is like claiming that Humakt is an Air god - true in some very specific ways, but incorrect in most of the ways that matter. At worst it is like claiming sons of Orlanth as being Earth deities because of their mother.

Such as Barntar... No idea whether Barntar was counted among the Thunder Brothers. But there may very well have been other sons of Orlanth who were more like their mother. They may have been among the many victims of the Gods War, though.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Descent is not identity. And worse, the same reasoning classifies every God  (Parloth) as being of Day and the Above, even though they have quite explicit other portfolios like Animals and Plants (including those that are explicitly tied to the land), which is even more misleading. 

Veldru and the offspring of Oro (look at the naming similarities between Ivaro and Togaro) end up being counted among the enemies of or rebels against Vith. It is likely that other Parloth stumbled, too - quite possibly all of them before the Dawn.

 

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4 hours ago, metcalph said:

We might have to start listing references

Please, it would make following this kind of thread easier as it's often hard to distinguish written source from speculation.

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15 hours ago, lokamayadon said:

1) black sun seems to be known as basko by the troll but sandy said that "the black sun might be à part of tyram". Is not tyram an anti god ? A chaos god ? I am confused that uz can be linked with this kind of god

This is from the Secrets of Glorantha Chap Book. The key word here is "might" he doesn't say "is. This quote comes from a transcript of a "knowledge lore" seminar and if you've ever been to one, you will understand what I'm about to say. No disrespect to Sandy, but HE'S A RAVING GOD-LEARNER. This kind of thing comes up all the time at these seminars. He could well have said that anything while in freewheeling mode. I'd ignore it, just imagine it's like one of those tabloid newspapers: 

581734873_ScreenShot2018-05-08at16_01_18.png.2616b43f469384f54deb4a5b398825b2.png 🙂

Edited by David Scott
added smiley to emphasis comedy aspect
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It is not very important to know if what sandy said was "canon" or just for fun or...whatever

I am asking these questions because I think there is something fun to do with the black/blood sun and may be trying to imagine a global scheme for a chaos plan

And it is why I like Sandy so much : he is abble to launch an idea that is fun and blow our imagination, just with a few words

So thank you to everyone that has written some cool ideas and I hope more people will join this discussion and proposed their ideas

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

The divide between Darkness and Chaos is a rather thin membrane. A lot of Chaos creatures or deities are also creatures or deities of Darkness, like Bagog (originally a Darkness Beast deity), Krarsht (underground), Vivamort (hurt by the sun) or Thanatar.

I see this very differently (YGMV).

Darkness it itself, it is Darkness.  It IS; it is not merely our own Earthly lack-of-light.  It has boundaries, not-darkness.  It is a fundamental part of Glorantha.  It is atomic.

Chaos claims All; it spreads, knows no limits.  It is infinitely divisible; even the smallest portion you can find is STILL infinitely divisible.  It comes from outside Glorantha, and eventually. inevitably, will completely un-make and/or re-make Glorantha and all within.  That is what Chaos is, what Chaos does:  creation, destruction, change; without let or limit.

Many peoples and even deities within Glorantha have come to accept Chaos-taint.  It may be too difficult to eliminate; it may be that what is tainted is too precious to them (it will almost certainly be part of their eventual undoing).

Chaos can certainly taint the Darkness (as it can taint anything else); and because the Darkness can be mistaken for not-Light, for not-Anything, it can easily be mistaken for the not-Glorantha of Chaos; but they are as different as Chaos is from the Light or from any other piece of Glorantha.

As I said above, though:  YGMV (mine certainly does!)  ;)

 

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The divide between Darkness and Chaos is a rather thin membrane. A lot of Chaos creatures or deities are also creatures or deities of Darkness, like Bagog (originally a Darkness Beast deity), Krarsht (underground), Vivamort (hurt by the sun) or Thanatar.

Quoting myself so that I can expand on my thesis there.

At the bottom of the universe/Creation that is Glorantha, there is Darkness. Somewhere within the bottom of the bowl formed by Darkness, there is the Chaosium, an outlet for creative Void that keeps firing Creation within the universe. There are other places where the separation from the Void is weak. Death in its current meaning came through one of these places, deep within Subere's deepest Darkness.

Within the outer void there is endless potential, but there are also entities not of the world hungry for entry into this world, often predatory or otherwise malevolent, and those entities are chaos rather than formless void.

That's how Glorantha is formed.

From early on, some of these unbidden visitors made it into the world, and usually their first interaction with Creation was with Darkness. And some of the early victims turned perpretators were beings of Darkness, like Bagog or Vivamort.

Thanks to the midwifing of Mallia, Wakboth was born into Darkness, too.

So yes, by nature of its entry into the world, quite a lot of Chaos has taken on Darkness traits or taken over Darkness entities.

And the heyday of Chaos inside Creation wasn't called the Greater Darkness for nothing, either.

There are cases of bright or glowing Chaos, but many of these were born inside Time, like Nysalor or the Crimson Bat. (I was told that the Crimson Bat originally was the Scarlet Bat, a demon of death from Rinliddi, until Arkat skinned and cursed it into its current shape and condition.)

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

I see this very differently (YGMV).

Darkness it itself, it is Darkness.  It IS; it is not merely our own Earthly lack-of-light.  It has boundaries, not-darkness.  It is a fundamental part of Glorantha. 

Darkness is the fundament of Glorantha. The first of all elements (or matter), the separation of Creation from the Void. It is also the sink for all energies flowing from the Ultimate into the worlds of Glorantha, passed on into the oblivion of the Void.

In a very cosmological sense, Darkness is the boundary to not-Being.

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

It is atomic.

In what sense?

Darkness is quite divisible, but free to alter shape, and to re-form and re-unite, usually drawn to the Bottom of Creation, but thanks to Xentha and other leaders now present in the lower Sky half of the time, too.

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

Chaos claims All; it spreads, knows no limits.  It is infinitely divisible; even the smallest portion you can find is STILL infinitely divisible. 

Chaos is the unnatural presence of the omnipotential Void within Creation. It annihilates definition, either leaving behind corrosive yet animated matter (gorp) or gaping holes of void inside Creation. Division of Chaos is meaningless.

Containment of Chaos is possible, and that is what keeps most chaotic creatures existing within Creation. Although probably containment is too optimistic a word for a slowing of absolute corruption.

Most of the known Chaos deities and greater creatures give Chaos a definition, a preferred target. Those are Cults of Terror, the barely conceived waves of demons that flooded Creation throughout the Greater Darkness, until the Ritual of the Net deep in the (also badly mangled) underworld, when the web of Arachne Solara becan to re-inforce the shards of Reality and to bring them into contact with one another again.

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

It comes from outside Glorantha, and eventually. inevitably, will completely un-make and/or re-make Glorantha and all within.  That is what Chaos is, what Chaos does:  creation, destruction, change; without let or limit.

Creation: no, that's what the Void does. Chaos only creates a mockery of Creation.

Destruction: all the way, complete annihilation, even of memories.

Change: Ho hum. Mostly Destruction. The rest is Mutation rather than Change. Change usually is directed. Mutation is random.

Chaos can be cleansed. Inside Creation, it can be seared away by the essence of the primal waters, or burnt away. Following the mystic path into realms beyond Creation, Chaos will become meaningless and even reversible. But not within Time or even Godtime.

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

Many peoples and even deities within Glorantha have come to accept Chaos-taint.  It may be too difficult to eliminate; it may be that what is tainted is too precious to them (it will almost certainly be part of their eventual undoing).

Chaos can certainly taint the Darkness (as it can taint anything else); and because the Darkness can be mistaken for not-Light, for not-Anything, it can easily be mistaken for the not-Glorantha of Chaos; but they are as different as Chaos is from the Light or from any other piece of Glorantha.

I can agree with all of this.

I still disagree with your "atomic" Darkness. Primeval, yes. The fundament of Creation, yes. Fluid of form and identity, yes, but capable of preserving identity and form when guided by sufficient will.

Darkness is demonstrably separable into Shadow (without Cold) and Cold (without Shadow). That's why Subere (All Darkness) has the two siblings Himile and Dehore.

Darkness is the Boundary, and the Boundary may waver, or be absorbed by what enters from beyond.

Darkness is no more Chaotic than is the distant Sky. Both are exposed to the Void, although in different (and differently destructive) ways. The rest of Creation is supposed to be shielded from the Void, but apparently that shielding never has been perfect, and through the deeds of the Unholy Trio was bypassed, increasing the older wounds within Creation manifold, and almost dissolving it.

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

As I said above, though:  YGMV (mine certainly does!)  ;)

Our views on Darkness differ. I think our views on Chaos are mostly compatible.

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To look behind the curtain a little..

The terminology antigods is very likely something picked up from the book The Myths and Gods of India, which is recommended in the Guide bibliography as a mysticism source.

Now, I’m by no means suggesting that the term is not modified from there in its Gloranthan use, but it’s still helpful in interpretation. 

In there, the term antigod is used as a translation of asura (sura meaning god). The comparison to the Gloranthan terms Parloth and Adpara is obvious. 

 A quote:

“The antigods are, thus, all that draws man away from the path of realization. They are those powerful instincts and attachments which keep man within the power of Nature (prakrti), prevent his progress, and obscure his intellect.

The division of gods and antigods need not therefore be clearly drawn. In the general evolution of man, a few antigods will become gods, while some divinities will be reduced to the status of antigods. The principles that are gods on a particular path of spiritual development may be gods on another.”

As with the adpara of Glorantha, the majority of the asura are listed as classes of demons (in the Mahabharata) but there are individual asura who are worthy, such as Maya the architect of the Asuras, and teacher of magicians, who becomes a devoted worshipper of Shiva. 

I recommend this book very highly.

 

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From my own notes on the Black Sun, Adpara, etc.

The Black Sun can be understood from a theist point of view as the Shadow of Yelm, and also as a deity of essentially sacrifice misunderstood - the Blood Sun w a disastrous cult that sacrificed real Life for temporary power, the Black Sun has reformed that to become the sacrifice of real Life for Illusory Power, which is sustainable but still nonsense.

From a mystic point of view all Illusion cults are a misunderstanding. Mystics preach that the entire world is illusion, so all paths to power are misleading. Illusion cults misunderstand that to believe that if everything is Illusion, trading real power (such as Life, freedom, etc) for Illusionary power is a good bargain. Avanapdur is the ultimate expression of this - if all is Illusion, then Illusion is All. 

Note also that the Black Sun cultists are descended from those followers of the Solar Storm who saw its enlightenment as failure. The Kingdom of Ignorance is founded on rejection of mystic insight. 

Adlanari, the Black Mirror or Black Moon, is the power of Illusion as it is now, after the downfall of Avanapdur, mostly constrained to dreams. They offer comforting Illusions, in the world of dreams but sometimes manifest in the waking world, including servants, lovers, dead children or parents or lovers returned, etc. Their rites to manifest something in the waking world, like those of the Black Sun, require sacrifice of something real. 

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17 hours ago, davecake said:
Quote

My statement  "The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below." is still correct. 

But its not actually correct

My original statement is still correct. There are better ways of voicing disagreement than labelling things wrong.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

but the Sheradpara are considered in some cases to have severed that connection.

According to what source?  They are still descended from Gebkaren and unlike Humakt they cannot sever the connection.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

 Descent is not identity.

Except that the Eastern Islanders in order to identify certain gods as antigods give them fictitious descents from Gebkeran which they do for Pamalt, Genert and Malkion.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

And worse, the same reasoning classifies every God  (Parloth) as being of Day and the Above, even though they have quite explicit other portfolios like Animals and Plants (including those that are explicitly tied to the land), which is even more misleading. 

It may be misleading to you but it is how the Eastern Islanders classify their gods.  See for example Prosandara who is described as the Goddess of the Animals of Above (Revealed Mythologies p74).  See also the glossary for the contrasts between Imad and Ferezed.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

So I'm prepared to take the chance that by merely clarifying that which is pretty misleading, I'm adding something, especially as think I do add things later in the same post. 

You are not clarifying anything that which is misleading.  You are saying certain statements are wrong in a line-by-line rebuttal which inflames rather than enlightens.  I don't care if you have a different interpretation of the material, you could have just responded to the original poster and giving your own views of the nature of antigods and allowed him to choose.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

If you are trying to answer the question directly, answering it as if a few thousand years of theological development and history had not occurred is not the most helpful approach, IMO. 

My response was correct and helpful.  Your debating style is not.  

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

The ontology of antigods is not the same as their ancestry, except in certain simple ancient myths.

But the Eastern Islanders do view their ontology as being the same as their ancestry!  That's why Gebkaren is the Mother of the Antigods.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

The theory of their patrimony is less important than how the term is used (especially when you get into later myths like that of Govmeranen, who is either the son of the anti-god Dogsalu, or the son of anti-god who became a god, but is certainly not an anti-god himself). 

Given that I've specifically stated descent from Gebkaren who is female the last time I looked, I fail to see why patrimony (descent from a male ancestor) should be relevant here.  Govmeranen's mother is Yothenara, one of the Parloth.  In the very myth of Govmeranen's origins (Revealed Mythologies p75), she points out that Dogsalu's nature has been changed.  Dogsalu is rewarded with the love of Yothenara (which had previously been denied him) and three days later Govmeranen is born.  Govmeranen is descended from the Parloth and so is a Parloth himself.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

Is the issue that the ancient peoples contested with Vith, or that the other methods of magic were known by the peoples of the East as their mythology developed and mysticism proved its superiority to other paths?

All methods of magic were known everywhere.  It is part and parcel of being a gloranthan.

 

17 hours ago, davecake said:

How would we even try to definitively answer that, and what difference would it make to the modern use of the term anti-god anyway, given that the idea of anti-god seems to have clearly developed past the point of simple genealogy by the end of the Green Age/Creation Cycle anyway?

There is no difference between the original and modern meaning of antigod as the Eastern Islanders themselves use it.  Yes, the genealogy of some antigods would be patently absurd but it works for the Eastern Islanders and that is all that it matters for them.  As for why I point out the origin of the definition rather than the modern shorthand (Gods that oppose mystical awareness), it is to sever the erroneous assumption that antogods are chaotic or heavily tainted with chaos. and why the Eastern Islanders tolerate the presence of antigods and andins.

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Gebkeran is the mother of the first Adpara, by Vith. I think that is as much as everybody will agree upon.

There are entities ranked among the Parloth and among the Adpara who aren't descended from Vith, like e.g. Govmeranen. Unless we have a convoluted form of re-incarnation of  Erdires (an Avanparloth) as child of Vith and Laraloori to become Yothenara as a Parloth - possible. In a way, parenthood through the second coming of the entity. A bit like with Malkion as son of Aerlit and Warera, too, and possibly a similar "born several times" approach might account for Rathor as storm born and Rathora as tilnta-born while still being children of Fralar. (These mentions are distributed over two different threads from yesterday, and divine genealogy has been all over the place.) But then there is this comment on pluripresence even of heroes and demigods, so why limit even more powerful entities to a single entry into Creation?

To make Dogsalu a child or grandchild of Gebkeran, the abstraction of Fear must be a form of one of her children. But somehow this amount of abstraction doesn't sit well with the rest of the usually anthropomorphic myths of the East, with Dragon a possible secondary manifestation (Harantara, Dogsalu, and all over the place in Kerandaruth starting with Daruda).

Interestingly, eastern myth has little notion of parthenogenically born goddesses. Usually, there is a father, in a few cases there are more.

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YGWV. As someone who has been refereeing in Chern Durel for about one year and who is more interested in gameable stuff than in theological discourse, I can offer the following:

- The Black Sun is the main god of Chern Durel (the former Kingdom of Ignorance), worshipped by both humans and trollkin. He is simultaneously a part of the Yelm pantheon and a Darkness deity.

- The Chaos vs Anti-Chaos antagonism is not as important in Eastern Genertela as elsewhere [the main antagonisms in Eastern Genertela are: Ignorance vs Splendour, and Waking World vs Nightmare], but the Black Sun is definitely NOT Chaotic, and the Uz who formerly lived in Ignorance (and who now live in the neighbouring lands) are definitely anti-Chaos since they are also subject to the Curse of Kin.

- The relationship between the Black Sun and the Blood Sun is not very clear. By reading the text on p286 of the Guide, my understanding is that the Black Sun and the Blood Sun are two different interpretations of the "Suns to Come" prophecy by different people (the Uz for the Black Sun, and Jorazzi Redhands for the Blood Sun). The Black Sun is the majority cult (p287) but in my Glorantha the Blood Sun has been making progress thanks to the maize connection with the Lunar Empire.

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When Sheng Seleris tried to make his sons Emperors of Darra Happa, the Red Emperor dressed in fish scales and entered the Ritual, clearly as Basko the Dark Sun, allowing him to kill the sons of Sheng Seleris. So, the Lunars knew of Basko and were able to use him in HeroQuests. If they knew of the Black Sun, they may well have k nown of the Blood Sun, unless they only knew of the "Basko soiling himself in front of Yelm" myth.

 

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Razalkark will make the Black Sun appear momentarily when he moves the Red Moon into an Eclipse of Yelm.  He probably gets the Red Goddess to let her hubris get the better of her, trying to eclipse Yelm and all.  Who knows how he manipulates that event.  But it's what happens after that matters most:  The Red Moon and Yelm merge, (some say Yelm hadn't gotten any in such a long time) becoming the Blood Sun and as the Red Goddess and Yelm die, their blood and the blood of all those who die upon the Red Moon, pours over Kralorela.

Harrek and Argrath witness the whole thing.  Harrek merely grunts but Argrath is quoted as saying "well, that's messed up."

Jar-Eel gets pretty bent over this.  "Really?  REALLY?  AAHHHHH!"  and she stomps off.

Androgeus just shakes his head, "Raz, why you always gotta be like that?"

The Dwarf looks on in horror, then hangs his head in despair and heaves a huge sigh.  "All right, we've got some recalculating to do.  Back to work."

Edited by Pentallion
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