roberrober Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 When opposing scan vs hide and the result is a tie, both successes, what happened? Will be the hiding one discovered or not? In dodge vs attack a tie really means Dodge wins so hiding adventurer will be safe? Am I right? Sorry my poor english. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psullie Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Scan v Hide - with a Success v a Success or Special v a Special result the Highest dice roll wins. Combat uses different rules when comparing Success v Success, so a Successful Dodge wins over a Successful Attack, your adventurer is safe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colgrevance Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 20 hours ago, Psullie said: Scan v Hide - with a Success v a Success or Special v a Special result the Highest dice roll wins. Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, Colgrevance said: Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober... The Quickstart says this, but RQG does not, and I think Jason has clarified that the "higher roll wins" rule is no longer in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psullie Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 36 minutes ago, Colgrevance said: Excuse me, but where exactly in the rules is this spelled out? I was wondering the same thing as roberrober... As Phil pointed out I was carrying that over from the Quickstart... mmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativehum Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I'm not sure if this answer the question at hand -- but I think it does. At the top of p. 144 of RQG, we find this passage describing the results of Opposed Rolls: Quote Tie: A tie (where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. If both participants rolled a critical success, the result is a tie. (emphasis added) It sure seems as if a tie is defined as having the same type of success and rolling the same number. This implies (to me at least) that if both parties have the same type of success, but they don't roll the same number, then it is not a tie. While the text does not seem to state this clearly anywhere, I would infer that since rolling different numbers does matter when the same type of success is rolled (since rolling different numbers precludes a tie) the higher number rolled is the rolled that wins the Opposed Roll. I am having to infer a bit from the text. But I think it is clear enough. 1 Quote "But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun. So have fun." -- Greg Stafford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) That is exactly what was raised, and Jason said no, the "higher roll" rule does not apply. Which I think is a shame, it seemed to work well. The only down side was if there is a long time elapsed between the die rolls, you might not know what the first number was. Edited June 18, 2018 by PhilHibbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativehum Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) Then what does that text mean? Sincerely confused. If a tie takes place when the numbers are the same (per the text), what is the result if the numbers are not the same? Also, can you point me to where this conversation took place? 3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: That is exactly what was raised, and Jason said no, the "higher roll" rule does not apply. Which I think is a shame, it seemed to work well. The only down side was if there is a long time elapsed between the die rolls, you might not know what the first number was. Edited June 18, 2018 by creativehum Quote "But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun. So have fun." -- Greg Stafford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, creativehum said: Then what does that text mean? Sincerely confused. Also, can you point me to where this conversation took place? I think it means nothing. It is a carry over from when the "higher roll wins" rule was a thing. Edited June 18, 2018 by PhilHibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativehum Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I'm not sure what I think about this. One of my biggest problems with HeroQuest (a game system I otherwise love) is the large number of ties that are produced by this kind of system. I really want a system to help me resolve things (that's why we're rolling), to not learn, "The Future Is Unclear... Try Again." Are there any posts from the designers about how to handle ties? How to make this result intriguing, fun, interesting, and move things along? Quote "But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun. So have fun." -- Greg Stafford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 8 hours ago, creativehum said: I'm not sure what I think about this. One of my biggest problems with HeroQuest (a game system I otherwise love) is the large number of ties that are produced by this kind of system. I really want a system to help me resolve things (that's why we're rolling), to not learn, "The Future Is Unclear... Try Again." Well, HQ uses a "high roll wins" (it was "low roll wins" before HQG) rule to break ties. Anyway, you're right the number of ties will be pretty high, and clearly in favor of the "defender" if there is one. My guess is the rule was discarded because it's not intuitive to break ties with a high roll in a game where lower is better. But that was a poor choice, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Low roll winning on ties would be intuitive for RQ, and doesn't actually change the math much or hurt the higher skilled character as much as people believe. 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: Low roll winning on ties would be intuitive for RQ, and doesn't actually change the math much or hurt the higher skilled character as much as people believe. Yes, but when the player with the higher skill rolls between his opponent's skill and his own skill, the outcome of the opposition entirely depends on the other roll. That's more a psychological issue than a real problem, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 24 minutes ago, Mugen said: Yes, but when the player with the higher skill rolls between his opponent's skill and his own skill, the outcome of the opposition entirely depends on the other roll. That's more a psychological issue than a real problem, though... Yes, but that is really the only chance the lower skill character has to win the contest. Besides, no one complains about that when the roll and 02 and lose out to an 01. They might complain about their bad luck, but they respect the 01. And it would be the simplest "fix" for opposed rolls, with the current crit and special rules. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 There's one thing that is sure, though : don't split attacks, and especially if your opponent is dodging... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativehum Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 58 minutes ago, Mugen said: Well, HQ uses a "high roll wins" (it was "low roll wins" before HQG) rule to break ties. Anyway, you're right the number of ties will be pretty high, and clearly in favor of the "defender" if there is one. My guess is the rule was discarded because it's not intuitive to break ties with a high roll in a game where lower is better. But that was a poor choice, IMHO. I should have been clearer. You get a lot of "Marginal Victories." In a system in which you are suppose to be getting a single output for a conflict the odds are you end up with lots of Marginal Victories rather than decisive victories. I can kind of see the value of that. But a lot of time it simply left conflicts hanging without a sense of resolution. Sometimes yes, I get it. But the odds were weighted to this. Quote "But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun. So have fun." -- Greg Stafford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valeren Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I personnaly never liked the « hignest (or lowest) roll rule ». The lowest roll doesnt reflect the skill, and the highest roll is not intuitive So to avoid tides I always had the defender roll first and use the margin of success as a malus for the attacker. If both rolls are failed I advantage the defender : since the defender is trying to hide he won’t be standing in the open so the attacker doesnt get an automatic success. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Oh. I see. Yeah. That's one of the limitations of the roll under, 5 success level percentile dice method. It really isn't suited for opposed rolls. Combat works out okay, IMO, it's the non combat applications that seem to suffer the most. One possible approaches would be to use multiples of the Special chance as new success levels, just go with the tens die, or a high roll, low roll wins. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniVacca Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 We've been using the blackjack (i.e., highest but still under the skill value) rule for our RQG playtest campaign, and it works very well. 1 Quote 「天朝大國」,https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/92874/celestial-empire 很有意思: http://celestialempire.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colgrevance Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, GianniVacca said: We've been using the blackjack (i.e., highest but still under the skill value) rule for our RQG playtest campaign, and it works very well. Huh? Shouldn't a playtest game use the rules-as-written to, you know, playtest them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Oh. I see. Yeah. That's one of the limitations of the roll under, 5 success level percentile dice method. It really isn't suited for opposed rolls. Combat works out okay, IMO, it's the non combat applications that seem to suffer the most. One possible approaches would be to use multiples of the Special chance as new success levels, just go with the tens die, or a high roll, low roll wins. Combat works because you rarely end a fight with one attack and defense roll. So, even if the defender has very high parry/dodge skill, there is a reasonable chance the attacker will eventually score a special when the defender rolls a normal success. Also, parry can be bypassed with damage. With most non-combat opposition checks, there is rarely more than one roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GianniVacca Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 The rules have gone through various iterations (as exemplified by the Quickstart booklet). Quote 「天朝大國」,https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/92874/celestial-empire 很有意思: http://celestialempire.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Colgrevance said: Huh? Shouldn't a playtest game use the rules-as-written to, you know, playtest them? That probably was the RAW at the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colgrevance Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, GianniVacca said: The rules have gone through various iterations (as exemplified by the Quickstart booklet). Glad to hear that. It makes me wonder, though, why the blackjack rule hasn't made it into the final rulebook. I would really like RQG (or rather, all rpg rulebooks) to have extensive designer's notes so I can see the reasions behind some of the more controversial design decisions. I know there are some remarks on the internet, but I don't want to go hunting for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 On 6/17/2018 at 10:44 PM, roberrober said: When opposing scan vs hide and the result is a tie, both successes, what happened? Will be the hiding one discovered or not? Page 142 & 144 says there's a winner and a loser unless you both roll the same number with the same level success, then the situation remains unresolved (nothing happens) so Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 67 (fail) scan is the winner Quote p142 - If both participants succeed, the winner is whoever achieved the better result. Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 21 (success) hide is the winner. Quote p144 - A tie (where both participants achieve the same type of success but roll the same number) means the situation is temporarily unresolved. Scan (30) vs hide (30) rolls 22 (success) vs 22 (success), a tie, the situation is temporarily unresolved. Scan (90) vs hide (30) rolls 10 (a special success) vs 10 (success), scan wins. Scan (90) vs hide (30) rolls 1 (a critical success) vs 1 (a critical success), a tie, the situation is temporarily unresolved. On 6/17/2018 at 10:44 PM, roberrober said: In dodge vs attack a tie really means Dodge wins so hiding adventurer will be safe? Am I right? as noted, opposed rolls are not used in combat, but the dodge table on page 201 says if the dodge is successful and the attack successful (no specials) the dodge is successful. we been playing this for 6 weeks now and it's pretty clear to everyone in my game how it works. 1 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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