RQG - Critical Crushing Damage clarification

[French Desperate WindChild]

my view

crushing special :  (weapon normal damage + bonus normal damage) + bonus normal damage (the special)

crushing crit : (weapon full damage + bonus normal damage) + bonus max damage (the special)

 

[Thaz]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my view

crushing special :  (weapon normal damage + bonus normal damage) + bonus normal damage (the special)

crushing crit : (weapon full damage + bonus normal damage) + bonus max damage (the special)

 

YGMV but that is not the ruling 

[Thaz]

19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Except it's not. By other rulings, your "normal" damage bonus is not part of Special Damage - that's why you don't get maximized damage bonus on a slashing crit. By symmetry, only one instance of (maximized) damage bonus is part of the Crushing damage that gets maximized, and the second must be rolled as usual. It would be super weird if your regular damage bonus was maximized on a crushing crit but not on the slashing crit - where's that in the rules?

I think that's just a case of overly quick editing, because it has no textual support and isn't even consistent with the other rules.

No. It's very very clear. Rule against it in your game all you want. YGMV

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Thaz said:

No. It's very very clear. Rule against it in your game all you want. YGMV

It's clear what Scotty says (although going back to an old post and editing it makes it very easy to make mistakes). It's not even remotely clear to me where he finds it in the rules. To me, it looks like just a mistake.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[gochie]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's clear what Scotty says (although going back to an old post and editing it makes it very easy to make mistakes). It's not even remotely clear to me where he finds it in the rules. To me, it looks like just a mistake.

It's clear that the newest official ruling by Jason (and quoted by Scotty) says you max all 3 damage rolls on a crit with a crushing weapon.

So: max weapon damage, max STR bonus, max STR bonus.

[Thaz]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's clear what Scotty says (although going back to an old post and editing it makes it very easy to make mistakes). It's not even remotely clear to me where he finds it in the rules. To me, it looks like just a mistake.

Reading the entire thread is indeed confusing. However having done so it's pretty clear. You could perhaps read it as a new ruling on the rules. Scotty and Jason have stated what it is. I get that there is a desire for a grand design mech that explains it all, but there isnt.  There's a very clear statement of both what a Impale, Slash and Crush crit means and seperately what a Crush special and crit look like. I can re quote them if you are browsing on a small screen and have trouble seeing them?

[Thaz]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's clear what Scotty says (although going back to an old post and editing it makes it very easy to make mistakes). It's not even remotely clear to me where he finds it in the rules. To me, it looks like just a mistake.

Critical impale (page 203) - twice the maximum damage plus roll damage bonus (plus magic damage bonus if any). Weapon is stuck in body.

Critical slash (page 204) - twice maximum damage plus roll damage bonus (plus magic damage bonus if any)

Critical crush (page 206) - Maximum weapon damage plus maximum damage bonus twice (plus magic damage bonus if any)

AND

Special Crush (page 206) rolled weapon damage plus rolled Damage Bonus plus Maximum Damage Bonus.

Critical Crush (page 206) Maximum weapon damage plus twice Maximum Damage Bonus, ignores armour.

[gochie]

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately few trolls if any will be wielding True Maul with as it's not a troll rune spell. Zorak Zorani have Crush instead, which is much more fun with a few stacked points.

Even worse... Ignoring the skill % increase, you would need a ton of rune points to make crush even come close to True Sword.

The great troll with a greatsword and True Sword deals between 67-82 damage on a crit, but only 53-55 damage with a maul and Crush 1. Even with Crush 5 (which is pretty huge), the Troll will only deal 57-67 damage.

Needless to say, I will houserule that True (weapon) simply adds the normal weapon damage to the crit damage.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By other rulings, your "normal" damage bonus is not part of Special Damage - that's why you don't get maximized damage bonus on a slashing crit. By symmetry, only one instance of (maximized) damage bonus is part of the Crushing damage that gets maximized, and the second must be rolled as usual. It would be super weird if your regular damage bonus was maximized on a crushing crit but not on the slashing crit - where's that in the rules?

We now know what the ruling is for critical crush : Max rolled damage + Max dam Mod twice. Quite happy with that

I have sympathy for your reading of the rules though. Despite what @Scotty said in the core Q&A, there is a strong inference that there is a general rule for all crits on p200 in the boxed Summary Of Combat Results which really should be altered in any future printing of RQG:

Quote

Attack

* A normal Attack does normal rolled damage plus damage bonus

*A special success does special damage (impale, slashing, crushing) plus damage bonus

*A critical success ignores armour and does maximum special damage plus damage bonus

It infers that all dam bonus's are added normally after the special dam for any crit. Thanks to the Q&A we now know this is not correct for Crush. The same boxed text is repeated in the GM screen.

For future printings it would be helpful if they  gave an example of a critical crush in the rules.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[tnli]

OK, but how does the special and critical crush work when you have a negative damage bonus?

You roll great, and get less damage?

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

OK, but how does the special and critical crush work when you have a negative damage bonus?

You roll great, and get less damage?

I think the wording says you loose the crush if you don’t have a damage modifier. Scott followed that up by saying:

“If a critical crush is rolled it does the maximum crushing damage, which is twice the maximum damage bonus plus the maximum weapon damage.

This also means that if the crusher has no damage bonus, the effect of the crush is lost and on a critical, weapon damage is maximum, but ignores armor.”

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

OK, but how does the special and critical crush work when you have a negative damage bonus?

You roll great, and get less damage?

don't use a crush weapon, fool !

(the character, not the player)

[Thaz]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

OK, but how does the special and critical crush work when you have a negative damage bonus?

Should be fairly rare. I mean most people are not going to use a crushing weapon with negative dam bonus unless it's in extremis or improvised. However at that point I'd rule the negative dam bonus went to minimum loss so the crit does the max possible damage for that person.

So shall we say they're doing 1d10+2 Weapon "plus" -1d6  dam bonus I would rule :-  10+2-2 = 10 and ignores armour. 

Just IMHO of course. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, Thaz said:

YGMV but that is not the ruling 

Quote

Attack

* A normal Attack does normal rolled damage plus damage bonus

*A special success does special damage (impale, slashing, crushing) plus damage bonus

*A critical success ignores armour and does maximum special damage plus damage bonus

that is the rules I bought

new rules may vary but for the moment the "double max" rule is just an answer in the forum and may be more explained / worked (and could be more consistent) Chaosium team makes a great job to answer so many questions, sometimes complex, sometimes so obvious. I m not sure the "double max" is exactly what they mean, but a quick answer to manage the flow of rules questions

 

[Kloster]

16 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Should be fairly rare. I mean most people are not going to use a crushing weapon with negative dam bonus unless it's in extremis or improvised. However at that point I'd rule the negative dam bonus went to minimum loss so the crit does the max possible damage for that person.

So shall we say they're doing 1d10+2 Weapon "plus" -1d6  dam bonus I would rule :-  10+2-2 = 10 and ignores armour. 

Just IMHO of course. 

Almost all trollkins.

[Thaz]

23 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is the rules I bought

new rules may vary but for the moment the "double max" rule is just an answer in the forum and may be more explained / worked (and could be more consistent) Chaosium team makes a great job to answer so many questions, sometimes complex, sometimes so obvious. I m not sure the "double max" is exactly what they mean, but a quick answer to manage the flow of rules questions

 

Nope. That's been corrected and clarified 

[Thaz]

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Almost all trollkins.

Which is why some friendly god taught Trollkin about spears. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

38 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

new rules may vary but for the moment the "double max" rule is just an answer in the forum and may be more explained / worked (and could be more consistent) Chaosium team makes a great job to answer so many questions, sometimes complex, sometimes so obvious. I m not sure the "double max" is exactly what they mean, but a quick answer to manage the flow of rules questions

 

Looks like It’s official having been through two Chaosium sources, with Jason’s final ruling. 

[gochie]

Let's remember that YGWV, and if you don't like the official rules, house-rules are very easy to implement if you're the GM (or a player with a high fast talk skill).

[Thaz]

1 minute ago, gochie said:

Let's remember that YGWV, and if you don't like the official rules, house-rules are very easy to implement if you're the GM (or a player with a high fast talk skill).

Oh totally. You want to nerf or buff stuff go right on and fill your boots. Its your table.  🙂