Worship and Magic Points

[Narl]

Each Magic Point sacrificed during Worship grants a +10% bonus to the skill for the ritual. Is there a good reason why just about everyone wouldn't sacrifice enough points to have a 95% chance of success? The points "regenerate normally" so after half a day, you would be back to normal.

This also makes sacrificing living things or valuable objects sort of pointless. Why sacrifice a cow for +20% when you can just sacrifice two Magic Points and have them back by dinner time?

Am I missing something? It seems that adventurers will only ever fail Worship rolls 5% of the time.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Narl

[womble]

I think you're correct that this is the way the RAW pan out.

Though 'having to sacrifice a cow' is a great excuse for a feast!

[soltakss]

For me, this allows a PC to have a worship without it failing all the time, which is fine. I'd just houserule that a normal Worship Ceremony always works, to be honest, with a roll if you want to do anything more sophisticated.

A sacrifice whould be for important things. If you wanted a Worship Ceremony to bless a marriage, bless people going off on a raid, lift a curse on a clan and so on, then a sacrifice would be required. 

[PhilHibbs]

16 hours ago, Narl said:

Each Magic Point sacrificed during Worship grants a +10% bonus to the skill for the ritual. Is there a good reason why just about everyone wouldn't sacrifice enough points to have a 95% chance of success? The points "regenerate normally" so after half a day, you would be back to normal.

Some people only have a POW of 3.

[womble]

22 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Some people only have a POW of 3.

Not many Initiates stay that low for very long, given 2 POW gain checks per year. Admitted, they need to succeed at their Worship, but with 'base' skill and a Temple bonus and a High Holy Day (or Sacred Time)  bonus and even maybe the chance to augment with their relevant high Rune affinity, they'll probably succeed most of the time.

Of note, perhaps, is that if their POW is 2 (because of sacrifice for Enchant/Rune Point/Divine Intervention) they can't participate in Worship without passing out, since an Initiate needs to sac 2 MP for a valid Worship attempt, and if their POW is 1 they simply can't do it.

[Narl]

I'm thinking I might change the MP bonus to 1% to encourage pursuing other bonuses, such as offerings, traveling to more sacred places, and seeing the substantial benefit of sacred times. I think Worship should be an iffy sort of thing at a roadside shrine with no offerings on an unpropitious day. I'm going with MGF and assured success isn't always the most fun or interesting, and offerings, travel, and sacred times are more interesting than just crossing off a few MPs.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Narl

[Psullie]

The MP sacrifice does seem high compared to Cows and such, given how easily it's recovered. But I'd say that this only applies to celebrants of the ritual. 

 

[jajagappa]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 8:18 PM, Narl said:

Why sacrifice a cow for +20% when you can just sacrifice two Magic Points and have them back by dinner time?

Many gods like cows?

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 8:18 PM, Narl said:

Is there a good reason why just about everyone wouldn't sacrifice enough points to have a 95% chance of success?

Worship ceremonies attract foes.  Demons, evil and hostile spirits, broos, enemy clans, …  If you've used up all your MP's, you don't have anything left to protect and guard the ceremony.

[Austin]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Worship ceremonies attract foes.  Demons, evil and hostile spirits, broos, enemy clans

This point has some merit, but I must ask:

1. Is this reflected in the text of RQG? Without searching, I can't recall anything describing such.
2. For many cults--especially the big ones like Orlanth and Ernalda--those enemy clans would be worshiping at the same time, since holy days are only certain days. Are enemy clans really a big concern on holy day worship? Of course, this doesn't impact a broo raids, evil spirits attacking, etc.

On the note of cows, do the Orlanthi religions have specifics of what's required for animal sacrifices? Ex. in Hesiod there's the story that Prometheus talked the gods into accepting the inedible portions of the sacrifice, turning a sacrifice basically into a nice meat dinner for the humans. Is this the case in Dragon Pass, too?

[womble]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Worship ceremonies attract foes.  Demons, evil and hostile spirits, broos, enemy clans, …  If you've used up all your MP's, you don't have anything left to protect and guard the ceremony.

I recall from my recent reading (Sourcebook, RQG, 2 x Red Cow and the three Sartar Rising books) statements to the effect that the Lunars don't actively bother Sartarite worship ceremonies because the Orlanthi "magic is at its strongest". Anyone rudely interrupting a couple hundred Heroforming Initiates in direct contact with their God, and their Priests and Wind Lords better have some serious mojo at their back. Or a death wish.

"Summons of Evil' actively calls such foes for the specific purpose of the ritual, so they'd be incorporated as part of the worship event.

 

5 hours ago, Crel said:

On the note of cows, do the Orlanthi religions have specifics of what's required for animal sacrifices? Ex. in Hesiod there's the story that Prometheus talked the gods into accepting the inedible portions of the sacrifice, turning a sacrifice basically into a nice meat dinner for the humans. Is this the case in Dragon Pass, too?

 Again, from my memory of the above recently read, yes, the Gods take the inedible bits burnt on a fire (or what have you) and the yummy rest of the Cow makes the centrepiece of the post-Worship celebratory feast.

 

 

 

 

[simonh]

Maybe the bonus for a sacrificed cow counts for everybody present, while individual MPs only give a personal bonus?

[Zozotroll]

7 minutes ago, simonh said:

Maybe the bonus for a sacrificed cow counts for everybody present, while individual MPs only give a personal bonus?

That is a great idea, and just got stolen

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, Crel said:

Is this reflected in the text of RQG? Without searching, I can't recall anything describing such.

RQG p.271 notes "With the priests’ invocations on holy days, real spirits, gods, and demons enter within the sacred precincts."

And there are strong reasons why you want Wardings around your sacred areas in your temples - not just to stop thieves.

16 hours ago, Crel said:

For many cults--especially the big ones like Orlanth and Ernalda--those enemy clans would be worshiping at the same time, since holy days are only certain days. Are enemy clans really a big concern on holy day worship?

For similarly worshipping clans, no.  But Grazeland or Praxian raiders will be happy to strike during an Orlanthi ceremony - and may well be drawn to it (e.g. by the Summons of Evil spell).

11 hours ago, womble said:

the Lunars don't actively bother Sartarite worship ceremonies because the Orlanthi "magic is at its strongest". Anyone rudely interrupting a couple hundred Heroforming Initiates in direct contact with their God, and their Priests and Wind Lords better have some serious mojo at their back. Or a death wish.

My take is that the Lunars do try to enforce their "no worship of Orlanth".  Getting rid of the priests, or destroying sacred regalia, of course, is likely easier than disrupting a ceremony, especially when the Lunar magic is only at 1/2 strength.  But if you can weaken the worship effort, strike at early points before initiates can draw fully on their magic, or at critical junctures in the rituals (as Jar-eel did when Kallyr attempted the Short Lightbringers Quest), etc. then you could achieve some success that weakens the clan in the coming season or year.

[womble]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My take is that the Lunars do try to enforce their "no worship of Orlanth".  Getting rid of the priests, or destroying sacred regalia, of course, is likely easier than disrupting a ceremony, especially when the Lunar magic is only at 1/2 strength.  But if you can weaken the worship effort, strike at early points before initiates can draw fully on their magic, or at critical junctures in the rituals (as Jar-eel did when Kallyr attempted the Short Lightbringers Quest), etc. then you could achieve some success that weakens the clan in the coming season or year.

I'd estimate Jar-Eel to be a power grade higher than Kallyr (superhero rather than hero), and that's probably about right for the 'serious'ness of her mojo. If you're hitting 'early', the participants won't have sacrificed all their Magic Points yet (if, indeed, they're sacrificing more than the mandatory). Yes, you could but there will be risks and costs that generally aren't worth soaking. Your local Lunar garrison commander does not have enough resources to try and rain on the Orlanthi parade while they're actually getting their God on. So they, as you note, go after them all the rest of the time at much less risk and cost.

Though it does make interdicting known worship sites somewhat pointless if the oppressed can just go somewhere random and set up a sacred space for the cost of maybe 4MP per participant... Makes Temples less significant in successful worship of a God. Since Sanctify is a Common spell, every Initiate can find a place to pray to their Gods on the Holy days if they've even one RP left. Granted, That level of worship (individual Initiates worshipping solo) is much more amenable to a good door-kicking: you don't have to grab them all up at once, so a garrison's Vexillary spirit should be up to providing enough oomph to bring down that level of ceremony. You just have to find 'em.

[Joerg]

There is the question which Lunars are up and about to interdict Orlanth worship, and for which reasons.

There is a strong revanchist faction in Dara Happa which has numerous grievances - the invasion which ended the Bright Empire and their blessed Khordavu lineage, the years of indignant tribute paid while the foreigners prevented the Dara Happans from having an emperor (a state of being they fear more than outright exposure to Chaos) when Ordanyestu was adviser, the reign of the Golden Dragon during the EWF, and the tax in magic and goods that went to the Third Council. They claim that the 1042 retaliatory raid was cheated of much of the treasure, and they blame the losses of the Dragonkill on the hill barbarians, too. While they were pleased that the Conquering Daughter put the hill barbarians in their place and that Hon-eel cheated the Tarshites by installing her son as their king, they still feel entitled to a return of those riches they claim were stolen from them, and they want the god of their ancient foes to suffer in Hell, too. This faction has no interest whatsoever in turning the hill barbarians into followers of the Lunar Way.

The Lunars obsessed with the ultimate ascension of their goddess as sole ruler of the Middle Sky (known to the Orlanthi as Middle Air) have a reason to cripple the Storm God and his claims to that realm. They aren't that interested in punishing his worshippers, and would welcome them as followers of the Lunar Way since that is one way to weaken the cult of Orlanth, but they surely are out to drain any flow of magics that may strengthen Orlanth's hold on the Middle Sky.

The Tarshites are mainly interested in adding the riches of the land to their own domain, which includes the inhabitants, and to some extent also their magic. Phargentes, Moirades and Pharandros inherited a "Vingkotling" lineage Orlanthi kingdom, with Hon-eel claiming the precedent of Yarandros, the fourth king of the Pauper dynasty, for her son Phoronestes as successor of the last non-Lunar Illaro dynasty king, and Phoronestes likewise for his son Philigos. They are aware of the futility in suppressing the urban temples of Orlanth (or the easily identified holy places next to the major settlements), but see the value in weakening the rebel magic of the kings and chiefs. Their preferred outcome of the occupation was assimilation of the Sartarites to the Lunar Way similar to their own kingdom, under their control.

It isn't quite clear where the Eel-ariash ambitions lay in this. On the one hand, they are actively pursuing the betterment of the Lunar Way and her domain over the world, on the other hand they are the patrons of Hon-eel's Tarsh dynasty. Sor-eel in Pavis has been quite tolerant of the temple to Orlanth there, sending in Faltikus, which seems to place him in the Tarshite camp.

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, womble said:

Though it does make interdicting known worship sites somewhat pointless if the oppressed can just go somewhere random and set up a sacred space for the cost of maybe 4MP per participant...

But there is danger in that.  Lack of wardings and defenses against hostile spirits and demons, etc.  As you note well, the Lunar garrison commander may not have the strength to interfere with an in-process Orlanthi ceremony.  But block off the sacred space, destroy its wardings, etc.  Force the renegade Orlanthi priest to create a sanctified ground elsewhere where the priest is unsure of what hostile denizens might come to the ritual - hostile beings that may well be able to disrupt and attack the ritual.

[womble]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But there is danger in that.  Lack of wardings and defenses against hostile spirits and demons, etc.  As you note well, the Lunar garrison commander may not have the strength to interfere with an in-process Orlanthi ceremony.  But block off the sacred space, destroy its wardings, etc.  Force the renegade Orlanthi priest to create a sanctified ground elsewhere where the priest is unsure of what hostile denizens might come to the ritual - hostile beings that may well be able to disrupt and attack the ritual.

I think the danger lies more in the smaller size of such gatherings than the location. Your random interloping spirit isn't going to pose a threat to a full Clan ceremony. Of course, in an oppressed situation, the risk of travelling to where large numbers gather rises with the size of the gathering.

In reading the scenario material set in Sartar, I didn't get the impression that the suppression of worship of Orlanth meant the actual ceremonies were inherently more dangerous, neither because of size nor location at non-prime sites.

[Pentallion]

Personally, I really hate the 10%/mp bonus.  I will probably change it to 1%.

[Zozotroll]

9 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Personally, I really hate the 10%/mp bonus.  I will probably change it to 1%.

Just the opposite, I like it so far.  That may change, but for now I am leaving it alone

[Scott A]

A simple house rule would be to change how Sacred Places work. Instead of providing a static bonus, Sacred Places would place a maximum limit on how much sacrificing MP improves one's worship roll. I'd suggest the following:

• No sacred place: +10%
• Shine: +30%
• Minor temple: +50%
• Major temple: +90%
• Great temple: Unlimited

Additionally, I'd rule that Rune Masters ignore this restriction entirely when worshiping their god.

 

[soltakss]

On 9/19/2018 at 12:42 AM, jajagappa said:

Many gods like cows?

Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett, had the same kind of idea. The best sacrifice for gods was bacon and sausages, as the smell of them frying wafted even unto heaven and pleased the gods mightily. It also allowed the priests to have a good fry up.