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Sir_Godspeed

Para-Orlanthi

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So, after the roaring success of my Earth People thread (the responses to which I'm still very thankful for), I've decided to look into another one of the wider areas I've been thinking about: the descendants of Umath and their respective followers. For simplicity's sake, I've lumped them together as "Para-Orlanthi", but just "Storm peoples" work as well.

To start off, Umath, the Primal Storm was begat by a union between Sky and Earth, and claimed a realm for himself, the Middle Air, with violence. He was later killed or maimed and chained, essentially leaving him out of the rest of Gloranthan mythology. Not to dwell on basic mythology here, just sort of setting up the threads I want to follow. Before he was brought down, he seems to have begot several descendants with various entities, most famously Orlanth with Kero Fin. He and his associated deities, in conjunction with allied Earth deities, would give rise to the Orlanthi as we know them today.

However, this wasn't always the situation, and this is sort of what I'm looking into.

Below I'm going to go through some of the stories and events I know about. They are not meant to be exhaustive (but feel free to add to it and help enlighten me/the question), but sort of put some things into perspective. I'm going to keep in mind that all of them have a source, and few can be seen as objectively true or even particularly reliable, but I don't have the patience to mention that after every story, so I'm just putting up this disclaimer.


To start off, did Umath himself ever gather about him followers beyond the scope of maybe a band of heroes, ie. something that could feasibly be called a "people", whether clan or tribe? In short, was there were a "Primal Storm"-people?

For his descendants, I'm aware that Vadrus had his "Vadrudings", or "Hurt Everything Clan", which besides being featured in (Theyalan) Orlanthi mythology, are also present in Six Ages to a small extent, and seem to be involved in the creation of either the Danmalstani in general or the Waertagi specifically through Aerlit. I'm also aware that Vadrus had some run-ins with draconic entities, and may have released a Heler-equivalent of some kind (not sure how this tale relates to the near-identical take featuring Orlanth). Any information about how the Vadrudings were organized or who they were would be excellent. I'd inquire about their female members as well, however everything I know about them seem to indicate that many of them were probably abducted and held against their will. Given the Piscoi's origin from raped Niiads, and the emphasis on Aerlit's exceptionality in seeking consent, it seems likely to me that the Vadrudings stood for some of, if not all, of the Piscoi storm ancestry.

The Dara Happans seem to have included him as one of two prime deities of the group they labelled the "Erlandings" (with Erlandus being Orlanth), although whether these constitute a separate storm people, or were just one of several migrations I have no idea. In Heortling myths, he is active seemingly even before Orlanth (such as in the myth of the First Ring), perhaps indicating he is an older brother (that story is pretty out there in general though, so who knows).

We're also told Vadrus fathered a daughter called Molanni, the goddess of Still Air. To me, this seemed like a way for the Orlanthi to account for Entekos, the goddess of "Good Air", who is an air deity of considerable age and notability in Pelanda and later, Peloria as a whole, but is seemingly entirely absent in the actual Air peoples' stories. This was strengthened by her being mentioned as a traitor. However, since she is mentioned by name in the Wedding Contest for Yelm, and contrasted with Dendara (the other possible Entekos-mask/equivalent) I'm not sure how plausible that is. I'm more tempted to see Entekos as a direct daughter of Umath now, but that's pure speculation on my part.

In the Gods War, Vadrus was killed by Chaos, and essentially rendered null and void, beyond reach, thus presumably also ending the Vadrudings as a people unified under his rule, if they could ever be said to have been thus. However, before this, Vadrus was, after an attack on Barntar, defeated by Orlanth, and we're told that Valind was given his father's properties. That's the Glacier of course, which seems to me to imply that Vadrus may have already personified winter winds, however this is not necessarily true, it may have been a novel project started by Valind after his father's disgrace. Curiously, I thought Himile might've been Valind's mother, but Himile is stated as a male, and merely on "good terms" with the god of cold. We know Ice trolls inhabit the glacier, but I assume some kind of semi-demigod people of Storm descent inhabit it as well. Do have any canon mentioned of anything along the lines of "Valindings"?

Valind's son, Ygg, is the first case were I can find a clearly stated, presently-extant people of Vadrudi descent. The Yggites reside on the Ygg islands, and are mostly famous for their Wolf Pirates. Most fan interpretations of them I've seen seem to see them as a more brutal and violent version of Heortlings, essentially. To me, it would be interesting to see how their interpretation of mythological events differ. Heortlings see Vadrus as an overly violent bully, Valind as a coward, and Ygg as a nuisance, it seems. Conversely, I could for example see the Yggites viewing Vadrus' death as a  courageous sacrifice to protect his kin (or refusing to step down from a challenge, no matter the odds), as opposed to the Heortling view that he was just trying to get Wakboth's power. The Yggites are also a great deal more maritime, compared to their mostly landlocked Orlanthi cousins, as befits the people of the Sea Storm.

The wiki seems to use "Vadrudi" as a collective term for all Storm-worshipping people of Fronela (including the Orlanthi Jonatelans), but I'm not sure if that's a very accurate and descriptive usage. Personally I'd limit it to whichever culture can seem to be traced back to, or continue to practice, Vadrus-derived social forms or beliefs, such as, presumably, the Yggites.

We also have other children of Vadrus, such as Iphanna and Gagarth, but I've never seen any actual peoples being associated with them, so I will pass by them in silence and leave any inferences about hypothetical mist-people or the Wild Hunt to others.

Now, moving on to another son of Umath (EDIT: he seems to only sometimes be ascribed a son of Umath, I must admit I just assumed it. Still, he's a Storm deity, so I'll leave him here.), I'm looking at Ragnaglar. He is most known to me, prior to creating the Unholy Trio, through the Initiation story where it is heavily implied that he is driven mad in the Sex Pit, and in the Descent from the Mountain, where he is accompanied by the Great Goat. I'm not sure if it is Ragnaglar himself who is totemic to the goats, or if the Great Goat is Thed, much like the Great Cow is essentially Uralda , the totemic entity/beast mother of cattle - however it's clear that goats are taboo for the Orlanthi due to their association with him, and that the Broos, who by default are goat-like, are his "children" in some sense. From what I gather, the new Bestiary has retconned their origin from the "Primal Rape" of Thed to a previously existing race of goatmen who followed their ancestor deities, Ragnaglar, Thed and their "adopted" mother Mallia into Chaos-worship. In that sense, I suppose that if there ever was a people we could call the "Ragnaglarings", it would be the Broos. I don't have too much else to say about that, really, aside from that I wonder if this means some Broos can reconnect with some Storm-heritage, or if it's been burnt away by Chaos. Would make for a pretty out-there Heroquest for an enlightened Broo or something (or even leading to Old Wind-style enlightenment, as opposed to Lunar/Nysalorean style)(Addendum: Aside from the Storm association, his goat-association is an interesting parallel to Urox, both being animal-associated, and having a massive duel on either side of the line of Chaos worship.)

I'm going to pass Humakt by, since it seems he explicitly had no children or amassed no conventional clan or people, aside from, allegorically at least, Arkat (in his Humakti aspect) within Time. He seems to be a pretty orthodox and integrated aspect of the Orlanthi proper.

I'm tempted to say the same for Urox, but throughout the time I've been here, people have mentioned the presence of several Storm people invasions across the world, from the Erlandings, Ram People and Andam horde in Peloria, to the Desero Horse, worshipping the storm god Baraku who tried to cross the Fense in Pamaltela, and who knows elsewhere. Some have raised the possibility that these were Uroxi, or Storm people associated especially with him. I'm also tempted to think of the currently-isolated people of Charg. More importantly, it seems to me, is Urox, or Storm Bull's role as a primal ancestor of the Praxians. Now, the Praxians aren't really Storm People (although they acknowledge various different roles for storms in Prax and the Wastelands), but they are Waha's people, and Waha is Storm Bull/Urox's son, unless this is a later syncretization and innovation. Importantly though, Urox isn't just the ancestor of the humans there, but also the herd animals. There seems to be a reoccurring theme of Horned Storm-patriarchs, such as with the ordeeds of the Andam Horde (with Varnaval the Shepherd King as their "horned patriarch", possibly), Urox of Prax and all its myriad herd beasts, and possibly even Ragnaglar and goats/broos. Heck, with the usage of the term "Rams" from a DH perspective and in Six Ages for Storm people in general and Vingkotlings in particular, and Orlanth's frequent depiction with coiled ram horns, as well as one of his sons, Voriof, being depicted as a literal ram, this seems to be a trend continued across the board. It also ties into the idea that mammals were a new introduction to a previously reptilian and avian surface world. Not sure what the many mammalian Hsunchen would say to that, but that's a matter for another time.

Kolat is another of Umath's sons, the Spirit Father. The only "people" I've seen overly associated with him, aside from non-hereditary shamans who are otherwise a part of mainstream Orlanthi society are the Wind Children. Their ancestry eludes me, as they are also noted to worship Orlanth himself. Their wings make me think of Sky-descent as well, but I'm wary of taking such things too literally. Either way, it would be cool to see some connection there. From what I understand, Kolatings aren't celibate, but I could be wrong. I'm also not sure if Kolat's spirits can be seen as his "descendants" or "people" in any meaningful way.

So, that's about it, as far as I've read and seen so far, and any thoughts about this is very welcome. Anyone I've neglected? Other cultures perspective on Storm peoples? I've not gone into mainstream Orlanthi (Theyalan, Heortling, Talastaring, Alakoring, etc.) pantheons or peoples, since that would be like ten times what I've written already.

 

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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Most storm peoples come around as migrating pastoralists descending from the slopes of the Spike - the Beast Riders of Urox, Desero's horde in western Pamaltela, and to some extent possibly even the Hykimi of the Great Forest or their sedentary kin (Pendali, Enjoreli, Enerali).

There appear to be mostly male storm gods, whether among the Vadrudi, the Praxian Founders, or the Storm Brothers, and few if any named female air entities. Brastalos, Vinga, Molanni, Iphara... At the onset of the Downland Migration, Orlanth's (paternal) sisters are mentioned, but that's it.

 

When Storm gods mate with Niiads, we get Triolini or coastal westerners (Malkioni, Yggites). Kahar's marriage to Harantara produces the Zabdamar merfolk, not of niiadic descent (although God Learners might identify Harantara with Triolina or Mirintha).

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Now, moving on to another son of Umath (EDIT: he seems to only sometimes be ascribed a son of Umath, I must admit I just assumed it. Still, he's a Storm deity, so I'll leave him here.), I'm looking at Ragnaglar. He is most known to me, prior to creating the Unholy Trio, through the Initiation story where it is heavily implied that he is driven mad in the Sex Pit, and in the Descent from the Mountain, where he is accompanied by the Great Goat. I'm not sure if it is Ragnaglar himself who is totemic to the goats, or if the Great Goat is Thed, much like the Great Cow is essentially Uralda , the totemic entity/beast mother of cattle - however it's clear that goats are taboo for the Orlanthi due to their association with him, and that the Broos, who by default are goat-like, are his "children" in some sense. From what I gather, the new Bestiary has retconned their origin from the "Primal Rape" of Thed to a previously existing race of goatmen who followed their ancestor deities, Ragnaglar, Thed and their "adopted" mother Mallia into Chaos-worship. In that sense, I suppose that if there ever was a people we could call the "Ragnaglarings", it would be the Broos. I don't have too much else to say about that, really, aside from that I wonder if this means some Broos can reconnect with some Storm-heritage, or if it's been burnt away by Chaos. Would make for a pretty out-there Heroquest for an enlightened Broo or something (or even leading to Old Wind-style enlightenment, as opposed to Lunar/Nysalorean style)(Addendum: Aside from the Storm association, his goat-association is an interesting parallel to Urox, both being animal-associated, and having a massive duel on either side of the line of Chaos worship.)

There may be a connection here with people of Sidara in dawn age Imther. They worshipped Sidar the Horned Goat Father and Miapora the Mountain Goat Mother. The Imtherian Orlanthi still herd goats, and may be descendants of these people.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Kolat is another of Umath's sons, the Spirit Father. The only "people" I've seen overly associated with him, aside from non-hereditary shamans who are otherwise a part of mainstream Orlanthi society are the Wind Children. Their ancestry eludes me, as they are also noted to worship Orlanth himself. Their wings make me think of Sky-descent as well, but I'm wary of taking such things too literally. Either way, it would be cool to see some connection there. From what I understand, Kolatings aren't celibate, but I could be wrong. I'm also not sure if Kolat's spirits can be seen as his "descendants" or "people" in any meaningful way.

If there's a particular Kolating centred culture, I'd assume you'd find it in Longsi Land, in the ancient territory of the Harandrings. This is due to their proximity to Doktados Mountain, Kolat's earthly home. As the local Sacred Peak, the Orlanth worshippers will be travelling here on Holy Days, so there's likely to be some Kolating worship at the same time.

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Entekos and Doburdun are the odd ones - the Pelorian air gods.

Jeff Richard wrote in 2014: "Dendara/Entekos is an interesting one. She’s not a child of Umath. The Pelandans hold Dendara to be the daughter of Jernotia, who some Carmanian philosophers interestingly identified with Gata, and later Lunar philosophers identified with the mother of Sedenya. Although the Pelandans rarely identify Dendara’s father, some Lunar philosophers speculate that she is a daughter of Gata and Aether, like Sedenya and Umath."

I agree. Entekos is Umath's sister. Doburdun is the thunder god, Entekos' servant (and relative?). Shafelsora is the goddess of rain and also serves her.

Note that Entekos is also entitled 'Mother of Moons' and 'The First Rebel God'. Verithurusa, the White turning Red Moon is perhaps her daughter by Yelm. When the Red Goddess tells Valare Addi that Entekos is not one of her aspects, that may be because is she is her mother, making the Red Moon (in part) Orlanth's first cousin (and Orlanth's aunt - Sedenya).

Edited by jeffjerwin
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5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Entekos and Doburdun are the odd ones - the Pelorian air gods.

Jeff Richard wrote in 2014: "Dendara/Entekos is an interesting one. She’s not a child of Umath. The Pelandans hold Dendara to be the daughter of Jernotia, who some Carmanian philosophers interestingly identified with Gata, and later Lunar philosophers identified with the mother of Sedenya. Although the Pelandans rarely identify Dendara’s father, some Lunar philosophers speculate that she is a daughter of Gata and Aether, like Sedenya and Umath."

I agree. Entekos is Umath's sister. Doburdun is the thunder god, Entekos' servant (and relative?). Shafelsora is the goddess of rain and also serves her.

Note that Entekos is also entitled 'Mother of Moons' and 'The First Rebel God'. Verithurusa, the White turning Red Moon is perhaps her daughter by Yelm. When the Red Goddess tells Valare Addi that Entekos is not one of her aspects, that may be because is she is her mother, making the Red Moon (in part) Orlanth's first cousin (and Orlanth's aunt - Sedenya).

Note that Doburdan likely is not an important cult by the end of the First Age and barely exists in the Third Age. 

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31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Note that Doburdan likely is not an important cult by the end of the First Age and barely exists in the Third Age. 

Of course, barely exists is a relative term.

A cult with 1500 members in Sartar may barely exist in global lozengal terms, but can still be important in local respects, since the Lunars are using him as a tame Storm to appeal to converts.

(Of course YGWV, but assuming the list of canon material's not lost too many sourcebooks.)

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It is worth pointing out that there is no mention of Doburdan in the Guide later than the early First Age. If I was going to redo Sartar/Sartar Companion, I'd entirely leave it out as I don't think the cult exists at all in the Third Age. 

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12 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

So to what degree are canonical books canonical?

In truth canon should matter only to writers working on books to be published by Chaosium. Your Glorantha Will Vary.

But in my Glorantha (which is what future publications will reflect), there is unlikely to be any mention of Doburdan post First Age. The Seven Mothers, and not some obscure forgotten antiquarian name, is the missionary cult of the Lunar Empire in the Provinces. 

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"To start off, did Umath himself ever gather about him followers beyond the scope of maybe a band of heroes, ie. something that could feasibly be called a "people", whether clan or tribe? In short, was there were a "Primal Storm"-people?"

I *think* everything you can find on that is in Book of Heortling Mythology.  As far as that goes, the number of people that were in Umath's Camp is the same as the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.  I feel it's about as obscure as it should be.

One idea I had about Umath's camp is that it could have been a planet, sometimes known as his own body.  That just comes straight from how Dara Happan myth describes him.

And myself, I like to think the storm people in Umathela were there before the great darkness, with their own, old religion.  It's a little more interesting than them being immigrants.  Same with Helerings; I like to think there are more of them still around.

Edited by Roko Joko
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On 11/7/2018 at 5:07 AM, jeffjerwin said:

Entekos and Doburdun are the odd ones - the Pelorian air gods.

Jeff Richard wrote in 2014: "Dendara/Entekos is an interesting one. She’s not a child of Umath. The Pelandans hold Dendara to be the daughter of Jernotia, who some Carmanian philosophers interestingly identified with Gata, and later Lunar philosophers identified with the mother of Sedenya. Although the Pelandans rarely identify Dendara’s father, some Lunar philosophers speculate that she is a daughter of Gata and Aether, like Sedenya and Umath."

I agree. Entekos is Umath's sister. Doburdun is the thunder god, Entekos' servant (and relative?). Shafelsora is the goddess of rain and also serves her.

In my Glorantha, Entekos was created when Umath rubbed against the Shy Dome and became a buffer between Air and Sky, keeping Umath from polluting the Sky Dome. So, she was created from Umath and Aether Primolt. Doburdan is, I think, Entekos' son, or grandson. 

Shargash took some Storm Powers when he killed Umath, I think he took Lightning Bolts from Umath's brain. I am not sure what he did with them, but Lightning Boy seems to have been the result, a Storm Spirit raised in the Sky.

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On 11/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

To start off, did Umath himself ever gather about him followers beyond the scope of maybe a band of heroes, ie. something that could feasibly be called a "people", whether clan or tribe? In short, was there were a "Primal Storm"-people?

I don't think so, as Umath was not around for that long. Didn't he push Earth and Sky apart, move in a great spiral to the edges of Glorantha and then get killed by Shargash?

Obviously, this was before Death, but he doesn't seem to have done much else, except father a host of deities on many different mothers.

On 11/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

We're also told Vadrus fathered a daughter called Molanni, the goddess of Still Air. To me, this seemed like a way for the Orlanthi to account for Entekos, the goddess of "Good Air", who is an air deity of considerable age and notability in Pelanda and later, Peloria as a whole, but is seemingly entirely absent in the actual Air peoples' stories. This was strengthened by her being mentioned as a traitor. However, since she is mentioned by name in the Wedding Contest for Yelm, and contrasted with Dendara (the other possible Entekos-mask/equivalent) I'm not sure how plausible that is. I'm more tempted to see Entekos as a direct daughter of Umath now, but that's pure speculation on my part.

Molanni is a bad Air Goddess, the stultifying Still Air, who chokes and smothers people.

Brastalos is a good Air Goddess, the Eye of the Storm, the Stillness within Movement, the Centre, whose breath calms the mightiest of storms and whose stillness enables movement around her.

On 11/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

We also have other children of Vadrus, such as Iphanna and Gagarth, but I've never seen any actual peoples being associated with them, so I will pass by them in silence and leave any inferences about hypothetical mist-people or the Wild Hunt to others.

Gargarth the Wild Hunter is a son, or grandson, of Vadrus and is powerful in Pent, Prax and the Wastes. He is the whirlwind or tornado, the destructive storm, and is worshipped by bandits and outlaws.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm tempted to say the same for Urox, but throughout the time I've been here, people have mentioned the presence of several Storm people invasions across the world, from the Erlandings, Ram People and Andam horde in Peloria, to the Desero Horse, worshipping the storm god Baraku who tried to cross the Fense in Pamaltela, and who knows elsewhere. Some have raised the possibility that these were Uroxi, or Storm people associated especially with him. I'm also tempted to think of the currently-isolated people of Charg. More importantly, it seems to me, is Urox, or Storm Bull's role as a primal ancestor of the Praxians. Now, the Praxians aren't really Storm People (although they acknowledge various different roles for storms in Prax and the Wastelands), but they are Waha's people, and Waha is Storm Bull/Urox's son, unless this is a later syncretization and innovation. Importantly though, Urox isn't just the ancestor of the humans there, but also the herd animals. There seems to be a reoccurring theme of Horned Storm-patriarchs, such as with the ordeeds of the Andam Horde (with Varnaval the Shepherd King as their "horned patriarch", possibly), Urox of Prax and all its myriad herd beasts, and possibly even Ragnaglar and goats/broos. Heck, with the usage of the term "Rams" from a DH perspective and in Six Ages for Storm people in general and Vingkotlings in particular, and Orlanth's frequent depiction with coiled ram horns, as well as one of his sons, Voriof, being depicted as a literal ram, this seems to be a trend continued across the board. It also ties into the idea that mammals were a new introduction to a previously reptilian and avian surface world. Not sure what the many mammalian Hsunchen would say to that, but that's a matter for another time.

Urox, or Storm Bull, is the father of the Minotaurs and Sky Bulls. 

As you mentioned, he is also the father of many of the Founders and protectoresses of the Nomad tribes. Waha is the Cuklture Hero, but Storm Bull is the Founder.

Mammals are definitely associated with Air/Storm. I am not sure who Mother Mammal descends from, though.

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What about Urain?

Too much fun to leave out. And he does gather followers, warriors who discover they enjoy the battle a little more than they should.

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On 11/7/2018 at 6:19 PM, Jeff said:

But in my Glorantha (which is what future publications will reflect), there is unlikely to be any mention of Doburdan post First Age.

That is a shame, as he is one of my favourite deities. He blusters, makes a lot of noise but is basically a bit useless. He might have a big club and can fly with it, Captain Caveman-style, but he became a Husband-Protector or Ernalda and then gave her up when Orlanth returned. He's a bit of a loser, really.

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12 hours ago, soltakss said:

I don't think so, as Umath was not around for that long. Didn't he push Earth and Sky apart, move in a great spiral to the edges of Glorantha and then get killed by Shargash?

The Dara Happans beg to differ. According to their calendar, Umath was born 40,000 YS and invaded the sky 70,000 YS. By that reckoning, Storm Gods had been present for three fifths of Yelm's reign.

By that same calendar, Young Orlanth had at least 30,000 Yelmic years under his belt when he liberated Ernalda.

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Obviously, this was before Death, but he doesn't seem to have done much else, except father a host of deities on many different mothers.

Not that many. We know five brothers of Orlanth, plus a fair number of other storm gods not known as (half-)brothers of Orlanth who might be his offspring, and the Downland Migration myth which has Orlanth and his people inhabit Dini on the slopes of the Spike mentions Orlanth's sisters, presumably paternal half-siblings. Again, when compared to the 30,000 Yelmic years Umath was around, he appears to have been either quite chaste or not that fertile.

Of course he spent quite some time pining for Asrelia, defeating Predark, stealing the Imperial Gazellet, making his camp.

It has become difficult to attribute deeds (and offspring) clearly to Umath or Vadrus. The earliest account of the death of Faralinthor had Umath as his slayer (RQ2 Companion). The version in the Guide (p.691) blames Vadrus, allowing a continuity in which the Faralinthor Sea follows the Flood.

 

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Mammals are definitely associated with Air/Storm. I am not sure who Mother Mammal descends from, though.

She is clearly a child of Hykim and/or Mikyh, and the archetype of the nurturing mother giving milk from her own body to her offspring, though not the archetype for nest care and child feeding - that probably goes to the bird mother or her even less defined sky beast predecessor.

The Sea Pantheon has the very convenient Tholaina, daughter of Triolina and Hykim, as ancestress of all beasts of the seas (though not all of the monsters, that's the domain of Varchulanga). The Sky Pantheon offers Avarnia as mother of birds, but not gazzam or horses.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Not that many. We know five brothers of Orlanth, plus a fair number of other storm gods not known as (half-)brothers of Orlanth who might be his offspring, and the Downland Migration myth which has Orlanth and his people inhabit Dini on the slopes of the Spike mentions Orlanth's sisters, presumably paternal half-siblings. Again, when compared to the 30,000 Yelmic years Umath was around, he appears to have been either quite chaste or not that fertile.

What about all the relatively nameless air elementals around? Speaking of which, how does theism explain elementals in general?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Of course he spent quite some time pining for Asrelia, defeating Predark, stealing the Imperial Gazellet, making his camp.

So he had some following at least, if not a people. A band of loyal co-adventurers?

 

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

What about all the relatively nameless air elementals around? Speaking of which, how does theism explain elementals in general?

They descend from Kolat, in the same way that Darkness Elementals descend from Dehor or Subere.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

What about all the relatively nameless air elementals around? Speaking of which, how does theism explain elementals in general?

There is usually a second third generation elemental pantheon ancestor of elementals - Umbrol for the winds, King Undine for the waters, probably Lux/Arraz for fire, Dehore for darkness, and (judging from Anaxial's Roster p.201/203) Likita for earth.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So he had some following at least, if not a people. A band of loyal co-adventurers?

A band of loyal officers of the camp, at least. The King of Sartar story of the First Ring names a whole bunch of Golden Age dissidents in the plot for the Imperial Gazellet.

However, Umath was in a weight class of his own - the elemental deity of the Celestial Court (King Storm, which may or may not have been just an aspect) and yet the adventuring Burta gathering or breeding his supporters. His activity in the cosmos was more or less unheard of, if you believe Yelmic teachings. Previous Elemental Rulers had shown little activity but specification into (usually a triplet of) aspects. The interaction of Earth and Sky was as new as the way Storm was born.

The God Learners do claim a correspondence of Vith/TarnGatHa with Aether, and there are a bunch of Eastern myths involving Vith.

 

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On 11/6/2018 at 8:37 PM, Joerg said:

Most storm peoples come around as migrating pastoralists descending from the slopes of the Spike - the Beast Riders of Urox, Desero's horde in western Pamaltela, and to some extent possibly even the Hykimi of the Great Forest or their sedentary kin (Pendali, Enjoreli, Enerali).

This is interesting. Would we say that mammals may be a result of Hykim/Mikyh (or a descendant) pairing in some way with Umath (maybe in a beast-aspect?). I wonder how this influences the presence/identity of Hsunchen. What made it so that some mammal-paired people ended up as Hsunchen, and others as Storm people pastoralists? It's the Golden Age, so the difference between humans and animals still is relatively fluid, I suppose, if not as fluid as the Green Age. It's an interesting parallel to how in Time so many Hsunchen have become Orlanthi, though.

Moreso, it does explain to some degree the various wandering people in different directions - although this is the God Time, so space and distance isn't a huge issue anyways.

I guess this interpretation would also mean that the Praxians were (a) people of Storm Bull, who were in some sense "adopted" or submitted to the rule of Genert in his garden, as opposed to the other way around. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. I always got the impression that the pastoralism was a Storm Age/Darkness innovation for the Praxians, after Genert's death forced them to organize into eater and eaten, a major feat achieved by Waha.

I suppose you could argue that at the point of downwards migration, none of the storm peoples, neither Praxians nor Orlanth's kin had yet really organized into "eater and eaten" the way we think of pastoralists now, given that so many of their gods and godesses were (as literally as the God Time permits) food animals. 
 

On 11/7/2018 at 6:07 AM, jeffjerwin said:

I agree. Entekos is Umath's sister. Doburdun is the thunder god, Entekos' servant (and relative?). Shafelsora is the goddess of rain and also serves her.

Note that Entekos is also entitled 'Mother of Moons' and 'The First Rebel God'. Verithurusa, the White turning Red Moon is perhaps her daughter by Yelm. When the Red Goddess tells Valare Addi that Entekos is not one of her aspects, that may be because is she is her mother, making the Red Moon (in part) Orlanth's first cousin (and Orlanth's aunt - Sedenya).

This is a major thing for me. Entekos' position and ancestry has always fascinated me, but making her a sister of Umath is kind of baffling, since it means that the creation of Storm/Air was not a one-off event, but occured twice. Or maybe they're twins in some sense. Maybe Umath and Entekos are the results of two Golden Age versions of events that got mashed together with the Compromise.

Lots of stuff to think about.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is interesting. Would we say that mammals may be a result of Hykim/Mikyh (or a descendant) pairing in some way with Umath (maybe in a beast-aspect?).

We have Storm Bull, son of Umath and Mikyh. We don't hear about any daughters from that union, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder how this influences the presence/identity of Hsunchen. What made it so that some mammal-paired people ended up as Hsunchen, and others as Storm people pastoralists? It's the Golden Age, so the difference between humans and animals still is relatively fluid, I suppose, if not as fluid as the Green Age. It's an interesting parallel to how in Time so many Hsunchen have become Orlanthi, though.

One possible distinction put forward by a Jrusteli scholar might be paternal vs. maternal descent from the beast storm.

I am not quite sure how many Hsunchen of western Genertela had been Hsunchen to begin with, or whether they used to be something else. Hsunchen don't farm - and that may even include paleolithic fire-farming of huntlands as has been practiced e.g. by the aboriginees of Australia since 50,000 years ago.

Finding the distinction between herd animal Hsunchen and Praxians is fairly elusive if you are a newcomer to Glorantha. "There are Eiritha and Waha" doesn't really answer this, especially since Waha was only active in the Greater Darkness and Gray Age, whereas the Beast Rider people had been around since the middle Golden Age. "Praxians don't shapeshift into their herd beasts" describes a symptom, not the cause. Looking at the Lofak Yak people of the western Shan Shan, I don't get the impression of much of that shape-shifting going on. Much unlike the Uncolings where I don't see much alternative to most humans spending most of their time on hooves.

Let's re-visit Eiritha. How is she different from the Green Goddess powering the Serpent Brotherhood of Hykimi shamans?

And how are the Enerali different from the Galanini? Are the Pendali of Seshnela Hsunchen, or are they only a small ruling clan for their Basmoli Hsunchen and Likiti farmer/city-dweller subjects? What about the Enjoreli bull people of Loskalm, as "Orlanthi" a group as you can hope for?

As a Hsunchen, you don't change your environment beyond what your totem beast does to the land (so beaver hsunchen still flood land by building dams, and gopher hsunchen still undermine the plains they inhabit). You still express your gratitude to the land goddess, but you don't change her.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I guess this interpretation would also mean that the Praxians were (a) people of Storm Bull, who were in some sense "adopted" or submitted to the rule of Genert in his garden, as opposed to the other way around. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it.

Storm Bull and his beast-headed sons came from the Spike, and the Founders married Eiritha's daughters. Through maternal descent, the Beast Riders and their herds are part of the land.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I always got the impression that the pastoralism was a Storm Age/Darkness innovation for the Praxians, after Genert's death forced them to organize into eater and eaten, a major feat achieved by Waha.

I think that they would have practiced some "dairy plus gathering" life-style before, with the four-legs sharing some of their milk with the two-legs.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I suppose you could argue that at the point of downwards migration, none of the storm peoples, neither Praxians nor Orlanth's kin had yet really organized into "eater and eaten" the way we think of pastoralists now, given that so many of their gods and godesses were (as literally as the God Time permits) food animals. 

There is the pastoralist theme of the magical beast(s) that you slaughter in the evening and which is alive the next morning - common in the Aesir mythology. Not dissimilar from the painted hunter culture of Wendaria, where the beast selected as dinner would be painted back to life for the next morning. (It isn't clear whether there is actual hunting involved, or rather an approach like asking politely "will you be my dinner tonight?")

 

Entekos may be the space created by Umath's birth, or separated from the Celestial Realm when he pushed the sky upwards. Not the matter of the Middle Air/Sky, but the volume. As such she would be a sister of Umath, Dayzatar, Yelm and Lodril, a daughter of the Sky. Originally a body of light, then filled with air. Compare the tripartite identities of the seas - body, current, spirit/deity/ruler.

 

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