Is Sword Trance broken?

[Psullie]

There is a potential false economy with Sword Trance, for the attack 96+ is always a fail, a 00 a fumble. The defenders Attack will succeed on a 1-5. With Abilities above 100% all skills are reduced. So a Humakti with 90% Sword, pumps 10MP to go to 190%. he's jumped by 6 Trollkin with 30% skill. The effective numbers are 95% for the Humakti and 5% for the trollkin. So he's essentially spent 1 RP & 10 MP to get an effective +25. You could argue that the -20% for subsequent parries are absorbed by the Sword Trance bonus, so he does get to make 5 parries at 95%, and he still only gets one attack per round. 

so I don't think it breaks RQ

[HreshtIronBorne]

My Humakti already has 40 MP in addition to his personal power. If he keeps collecting more at this rate he will be able to have 2000% to hit before too long. It only takes 190 MP for a character with base 100 to hit to get to 2000. This is the Hero Wars after all, our characters will probably find no shortage of crystals, we had GOBS of them in our RQ3 campaigns. Is the spell acceptable and unbroken when it can,be cast for a whole day for 2000% to hit? Someone could easily cast a MASSIVE Shield Spell to help protect our BA Sword while he goes to work.  

[womble]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Game balance has never figured prominently in other RPGs either, as anyone who has played a first level magic user can attest.

Or a high level fighter...  So "on average, over the lifetime of a campaign they were balanced".

Yeah. Right.

[Kloster]

9 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

My Humakti already has 40 MP in addition to his personal power. If he keeps collecting more at this rate he will be able to have 2000% to hit before too long. It only takes 190 MP for a character with base 100 to hit to get to 2000. This is the Hero Wars after all, our characters will probably find no shortage of crystals, we had GOBS of them in our RQ3 campaigns. Is the spell acceptable and unbroken when it can,be cast for a whole day for 2000% to hit? Someone could easily cast a MASSIVE Shield Spell to help protect our BA Sword while he goes to work.  

I don't know what will be the availability of MP matrixes and magic crystals in the campaign I'm playing, but it will certainly be lower than that. Whatever the case, of course, 2000% is a lot, but in fact does not change much things compared to 300% and is a waste of MP. Whatever the case, Attack % will be 100% (reduced to 95%), with 20% special and 5% critical. The defender parry will be reduced to 5%.

Kloster

[womble]

34 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I might just be the last RQ3holdout on these forums too, and even I can't justify claims of RQG being 'broken'. 

I've used a pot load of RQ3isms in my RQG game. For my money, many, even most of the reversions to RQ2 are retrograde steps. The steps away from RQ2 (Passions/Runes, RP, mostly) are what I've kept. 

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

My Humakti already has 40 MP in addition to his personal power. If he keeps collecting more at this rate he will be able to have 2000% to hit before too long. It only takes 190 MP for a character with base 100 to hit to get to 2000.

Only 190 MP? That's a lot more magic points than I've seen in a RQ game. Certainly a lot more than I've sen for characters at the 100% level. Woundn't there be a better use for 190 magic points than beating a dead horse with 1000% skill?

7 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

This is the Hero Wars after all, our characters will probably find no shortage of crystals, we had GOBS of them in our RQ3 campaigns. Is the spell acceptable and unbroken when it can,be cast for a whole day for 2000% to hit? Someone could easily cast a MASSIVE Shield Spell to help protect our BA Sword while he goes to work.  

And couldn't somebody with 190 MPs points take this guy down with missile attack and spells? Or just come back on the next day? 

 

THe whole, Sword Trance is too powerful argument seems to hinge entirely upon everybody allowing the character to use the tactic against them, or being unable to prevent it. Which seems highly unlikely. Sure a PC could run rampart with the tactic for a bit, but eventually the word should get out and someone is going to set the character up for a huge fall. Then what does he do? What does he have to fall back on if Plan A fails? Does he even get enough time to react to that?

[womble]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I don't know what will be the availability of MP matrixes and magic crystals in the campaign I'm playing, but it will certainly be lower than that. Whatever the case, of course, 2000% is a lot, but in fact does not change much things compared to 300% and is a waste of MP. Whatever the case, Attack % will be 100% (reduced to 95%), with 20% special and 5% critical. The defender parry will be reduced to 5%.

Kloster

1d10 Magic Points storage costs 1POW. There will come a point when characters' CHAs are full (maybe twice) of Rune Points, and then you'll see the Enchantments coming out. And if you're making Enchantments a point at a time, it's deeply inefficient to make them restricted use. And half a dozen bound spirits can refill a lot of stores.

[womble]

23 minutes ago, Psullie said:

There is a potential false economy with Sword Trance, for the attack 96+ is always a fail, a 00 a fumble. The defenders Attack will succeed on a 1-5. With Abilities above 100% all skills are reduced. So a Humakti with 90% Sword, pumps 10MP to go to 190%. he's jumped by 6 Trollkin with 30% skill. The effective numbers are 95% for the Humakti and 5% for the trollkin. So he's essentially spent 1 RP & 10 MP to get an effective +25. You could argue that the -20% for subsequent parries are absorbed by the Sword Trance bonus, so he does get to make 5 parries at 95%, and he still only gets one attack per round. 

so I don't think it breaks RQ

Now that's one of the broken rules in RQ3. Or, perhaps not broken, but 'insufficiently broadly stated' (because the designers weren't considering truly horrific success chances).

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, womble said:

I've used a pot load of RQ3isms in my RQG game. For my money, many, even most of the reversions to RQ2 are retrograde steps. The steps away from RQ2 (Passions/Runes, RP, mostly) are what I've kept. 

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it. IMO RQ3 is generally better. There are some features of RQ2 that I prefer, such as 12 SR instead of 10 (but now how the SR and run in RQ2), but overall I think RQ3 is an improvement. Probably because RQ3 was a deliberate attempt by the author(s) of RQ2 to fix the bugs in RQ2 and improve it. 

If I were to run Gloratha, I might buy RQG to port over the new stuff, and maybe shift the focus to and pace of the game, maybe use rune point pools, but I'd almost certainly use RQ3 for the core rules. 

In fact the "anti-parry" stuff from RQ2 seems to be the biggest objection to Sword Trance in RQG, so RQ3 rules would "fix" the issue. But then I think "anti-parry" was deliberately dropped from all of Chasoium's post RQ2 RPGs for a reason. 

[PhilHibbs]

23 minutes ago, Psullie said:

There is a potential false economy with Sword Trance, for the attack 96+ is always a fail, a 00 a fumble. The defenders Attack will succeed on a 1-5. With Abilities above 100% all skills are reduced. So a Humakti with 90% Sword, pumps 10MP to go to 190%. he's jumped by 6 Trollkin with 30% skill...

If your Humakti doesn't have over 100% skill with a sword then you kind of dropped the ball at character creation, so he should have 200% and be able to split attacks and make one hit at 100% with no chance of parry and a second at 75% against a normal parry.

[Kloster]

7 minutes ago, womble said:

I've used a pot load of RQ3isms in my RQG game. For my money, many, even most of the reversions to RQ2 are retrograde steps. The steps away from RQ2 (Passions/Runes, RP, mostly) are what I've kept. 

I'm not in the position to choose because I'm not the GM. But we should not be so harsh: RQG contains points that don't please me, but also points that are big progresses (Rune points being one BIG improvement).

Kloster

[Kloster]

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

In fact the "anti-parry" stuff from RQ2 seems to be the biggest objection to Sword Trance in RQG, so RQ3 rules would "fix" the issue. But then I think "anti-parry" was deliberately dropped from all of Chasoium's post RQ2 RPGs for a reason. 

In fact, for me, the potential problem comes more from the single skill that replace Attack and Parry skills for each weapon, like Stormbringer. RQIII Axe Trance (the basis to Sword Trance creation) increased only Attack percentage. If Parry is not increased, Sword Trance does not protect it's user and the horde of trollkin would attack somebody with a manageable level of defense. GM would need 10 trollkin instead of 20.

Kloster

P.S. I don't like the Anti Parry, but for other reasons

Edited January 22, 2019 by Kloster
add PS

[PhilHibbs]

25 minutes ago, Kloster said:

P.S. I don't like the Anti Parry, but for other reasons

What is Anti Parry?

[Atgxtg]

21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What is Anti Parry?

It's slang for the effect that a high attack skill has in reducing opposing parry skills in RQ2 and RQG. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

It's slang for the effect that a high attack skill has in reducing opposing parry skills in RQ2 and RQG. 

Oh. I didn't think that was ever a rule in RQ2, I can't find it.

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, womble said:

1d10 Magic Points storage costs 1POW. There will come a point when characters' CHAs are full (maybe twice) of Rune Points, and then you'll see the Enchantments coming out. And if you're making Enchantments a point at a time, it's deeply inefficient to make them restricted use. And half a dozen bound spirits can refill a lot of stores.

This is more my point. This idea combined with generational gameplay will yield a LOT more resources for future characters and adventures. 

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Only 190 MP? That's a lot more magic points than I've seen in a RQ game. Certainly a lot more than I've sen for characters at the 100% level. Woundn't there be a better use for 190 magic points than beating a dead horse with 1000% skill?

And couldn't somebody with 190 MPs points take this guy down with missile attack and spells? Or just come back on the next day? 

 

THe whole, Sword Trance is too powerful argument seems to hinge entirely upon everybody allowing the character to use the tactic against them, or being unable to prevent it. Which seems highly unlikely. Sure a PC could run rampart with the tactic for a bit, but eventually the word should get out and someone is going to set the character up for a huge fall. Then what does he do? What does he have to fall back on if Plan A fails? Does he even get enough time to react to that?

There are non-traditional Humakti threats that are exponentially more fucked up if they can Sword Trance. Illuminate Humakti Sword Broo sneaking in and Obliterating whole clans without any ability to resist. 

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

lluminate Humakti Sword Broo sneaking in and Obliterating whole clans without any ability to resist. 

Shoot it. Sever Spirit. Thunderbolt. A high sword skill isn't god-mode.

[Atgxtg]

52 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh. I didn't think that was ever a rule in RQ2, I can't find it.

Page 60 under COMBAT BENEFITS for becoming a Rune Lord:

2. An opponent’s parry is also reduced against a 100%+ attack.
Thus a character with a normal parry of 75%, fighting a
Rune Lord with a 120% attack, has only a 55% chance of
parrying the Rune Lord (120-100 = 20,75-20 = 55).

[Atgxtg]

55 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Illuminate Humakti Sword Broo sneaking in and Obliterating whole clans without any ability to resist. 

What can't a bunch of Broos just stab that the guy with spears? I don't recall getting unlimited parries. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Atgxtg

[PhilHibbs]

38 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

What can't a bunch of Broos just that the guy with spears? I don't recall getting unlimited parries. 

Well it's cumulative -20 per parry, but it isn't limited. If you have 200 skill, you can parry 6 times before your chance starts to go below 100.

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well it's cumulative -20 per parry, but it isn't limited. If you have 200 skill, you can parry 6 times before your chance starts to go below 100.

Ah another new rule. But in RQ some of the damage could slip past the parry. And the Broos could always throw the  spears as javelins, backed up with a little speedart. It just doesn't strike me as the overwhelming ability that some claim. It seems like it can let a PC wreak havoc a couple of times before somebody takes the Humakti down with numbers or ranged attacks. 

While I admit I'm not thrilled with some of RQG's rules, which seems to have compounded each other in cases like this, I wouldn't say Sword Trance is broken.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Assuming he were dumb enough to allow himself to be surrounded like that, didn't have his own allies, bothered with parrying (he might let his armor+protection spells take the hit), etc, etc.

The entire notion of a "horde" attack is that  them li'l bastids is EVER'WHIR, dammitol !!!  They come at you faster than you can kill them, surround you, mob you from all sides, etc.  They hit you with so many attacks that they can reasonably hope to get an ignores-armor Crit in the first round or two, and disable a location... head/chest/abdomen and it's the end, even an arm or a leg is likely to be the "beginning of the end".

This is how the mob/horde/pack works.  It is terrifyingly effective.  Most predators have a 10%-20% success rate; lions have about 30%.

Cape Hunting Dogs success rates vary by what prey they hunt, from 60%-90% but overall about 80%-85% success.

 

Agreed, allies can make a HUGE difference -- just 1-2 allies going back-to-back (or a Sardaukar-style trio) can HUGELY reduce the threat of such a mob... but not eliminate it.  If the numbers are sufficient, they'll pull them down one by one (likely the non-Trance'rs first, who only have 100% / 120% / etc ).

But woe the lone fighter, however skilled, who gets surrounded by a desperate mob.

It's one of the "features" of RQ/BRP -- hordes of "minor" foes can become a major challenge; even for the 200%'ers.  Not sure about the 1000%'ers... I think you may need missiles & spells & spirits & poison &c for Mr.Kilosword; a simple mob won't suffice!

Of course, there's also the not-so-simple mob, too.  Let's take that "horde of minor Trollkin" ... let's say there's a ringer in there ... a Superior enlo, or a small uzko, boasting a native skill near/at/over 100% himself, and a bit of his own magic; ZZ with bladesharp?  Poison?  Maul Trance???

Smart enough to hold his attack, pretend to cowardice/klutziness/etc, wait 'til the SwordTrance'r is at maximum parry-penalty.  ZZ waited for Yelmalio to be defeated and weakened for the ambush at Hill of Gold, so that's a Heroquest tactic, right there!

 

n.b. RE "missiles & spells & spirits & poison &c" -- there's a LOT of other things on the Gloranthan battlefield than honorable duelling.  There is NO skill, however high, that is a blanket "I Win" button.

Except maybe over-100% with the Infinity Rune?  🤡

 

[daskindt]

6 hours ago, womble said:

I've used a pot load of RQ3isms in my RQG game. For my money, many, even most of the reversions to RQ2 are retrograde steps. The steps away from RQ2 (Passions/Runes, RP, mostly) are what I've kept. 

I was introduced to RQ3 and never played RQ2, so I’m not nostalgic about it. I also find most of the reversions from RQ3 to be to the detriment of the game. Passions and Rune Magic changes are welcome, but almost everything that was changed back to RQ2 is for the worse imo.

[RosenMcStern]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Ah another new rule. But in RQ some of the damage could slip past the parry.

No longer the case in RQG when your weapon skill is boosted to 200+. As I explained in the uzdo example, the problem is that the huge skill of the humakti forces a miss on the attacker. Instead of some damage overcoming the weapon parry points that you would have in RQ2/RQ3, you have the humakti's sword damaging the enemy weapon with each attempted blow.

Quote

And the Broos could always throw the  spears as javelins, backed up with a little speedart.

Thrown weapons can be parried....

[Psullie]

9 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

you have the humakti's sword damaging the enemy weapon with each attempted blow

I'm not sure, the table on p199 says that with a Normal attack vs a normal parry excess damage goes to the hit location.