Joining multiple subcults of the same God

[womble]

The recent thread about an Ulanin Subcult for Orlanth triggered some wondering about other Orlanthi subcults and how they work together within the overall Religion of Sartar. I suspect some of the wonderings might apply to other pantheons also.

So we know that (by default) an Orlanth Initiate chooses one of Adventurous (or Vinga) or Thunderous when they become Initiated by devoting one point of personal POW. They then gain the 'right' to access all the 'general' Orlanth Special Rune Spells ("all subcults") and the ones offered by the specific subcult they join. We also know that when a Sartarite becomes an Orlanthi Chieftain, they also become Initiated into Orlanth Rex, and gain the ability to access another set of Rune Magic.

We know you get a separate pool of Rune Points for use with each God you Initiate with, usually Associated Gods to a previous Initiation. I think that spells of all subcults of the same God would be drawing on the same, single, pool of Rune Points to be cast.

In the example of Initiation to Orlanth Rex, does the new Chieftain lose their potential access to the spells of their default subcult that they haven't yet learned? I don't think it would be fair to remove access to subcult Special Rune Magic that they had already sacrificed for, but it's possible.

I'd assume going 'up' to Rex would require another POW to be sacrificed (for one of the Rex spells).

Is it possible/acceptable to switch between Adventurous and Thunderous (either way)? More than once? I'd assume this would take a point of POW, if it were to be done. And it raises the same question as for Rex Initiates.

Is it possible to be Initiated in both Adventurous and Thunderous at the same time? If it is, is that also possible with Rex?

How do 'Hero Cults' work? They're not really a 'thing' in the core rules. Are they 'additional' subcults that grant potential access to a different set of Special Rune Magic? Or do they just grant access to the one (or a very few) additional spells specific to their own myth? As 'full' subcults, they'd switch (or not) the character's pool of potential spells to sacrifice for; if they're 'lesser' and simply don't offer that many spells, would that offer be additional to the 'main' subcult, or replace it (making adherents of the Hero Cult very much more specialised than general co-Religionists). An alternative mechanism would be to have a Hero Cult be a separate (but Associated) Cult: this would imply, I think, a separate pool of Rune Points for that Cult's Rune Spells (Common and Special), which is its own kettle of fish.

Any thoughts or answers?

 

[CBDunkerson]

There are examples of this in the book, and yes you get a single pool of Rune Points for all the sub-cults of the god.

See 'Joining a Subcult' on pg 282 and the example there of Vasana joining the Thunderous subcult in addition to her existing membership in Vinga.

[womble]

Thanks for the pointer, CB. You're right: it is covered there. A Hero Cult is just another Subcult and you can be a member of as many subcults as you can pass the 'test' for.

However, I find myself disappointed after reading the relevant snippet. Effectively, Subcults are largely meaningless restrictions. Since the POW point for joining gets you a Rune Spell as well as a Rune Point, if your Adventurous adventurer fancies adding Thunderbolt instead of Lightning, they can 'just' join Thunderous to access it. Strictly, they could even take Rune Spells provided by Associated Cults (Bear's Strength, say) which are 'only' available to the new Subcult.

It also means in Cults like Orlanth where Priest and Lord derive from different Subcults, that the initial 'decision' on which of the two default subcults to join is not very momentous, since you can just add the other.

[soltakss]

Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth Thundrous are Aspects of Orlanth, not Subcults, so they are treated as separate cults and I would expect them to have different Rune Pools.

However, a Subcult is something like the Magical Weapons of Orlanth, or Monrogh, they are deities worshipped together with the main Cult. I would not expect them to have separate Rune Pools, in the same way that Associate Cults use the Rune Pools of the main Cult.

So, if I joined Orlanth Adventurous, Orlanth Thunderous and Sandals of Darkness, then I could use my Dark Walk using my Orlanth Adventurous Rune Pool, as the Sandals of Darkness are a subcult of Orlanth Adventurous. 

 

[Oracle]

12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth Thundrous are Aspects of Orlanth, not Subcults, so they are treated as separate cults and I would expect them to have different Rune Pools.

...

 

Not according to the (short) cult description of Orlanth in the core rule book RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha on p.301:

Quote

Subcults: The Orlanth cult has two major subcults: Adventurous and Thunderous. An initiate picks one subcult or the other when they join the cult of Orlanth — typically whatever subcult is locally favored. No additional POW sacrifice is necessary.

Other important subcults include Orlanth Rex and Vinga.

Only tribal leaders can join the Orlanth Rex subcult. The tribal king is the High Priest of Orlanth Rex for that tribe; the Prince of Sartar is High Priest for all the tribes of Sartar.

 

'No additional POW sacrifice is necessary.' does mean: same Rune Point pool (at Ieast I read the text this way ...)

[soltakss]

Uggh, that has changed for RQG, then. So, you don't have subcults of Aspects, instead Aspects are just another subcult of the cult.

That means that the Sandalds of darkness subcult would be available to any Olrnath worshipper, rather than just Orlanth Adventurous. I suppose that sort-of makes sense.

[Darius West]

So here's a few questions...

1) When you join a subcult, do you have to pay extra tithes for the privilege?  That could get frantically expensive.

2) Should we consider the Thunder Brothers to be subcults of Orlanth or cults unto themselves?

3) Is there any reason why men can't venerate Vinga and get the "Fearless" spell?

[PhilHibbs]

I think subcults have the same RP pool.

[CBDunkerson]

Another example on page 314 clearly states that Vasana has a single rune point pool for both Vinga and Thunderous subcults.

[womble]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

So here's a few questions...

1) When you join a subcult, do you have to pay extra tithes for the privilege?  That could get frantically expensive.

2) Should we consider the Thunder Brothers to be subcults of Orlanth or cults unto themselves?

3) Is there any reason why men can't venerate Vinga and get the "Fearless" spell?

1) I don't think so.

2) Subcults, I reckon.

3) Yes, there is a reason. They are men. They don't qualify, any more than an Ernaldan who hasn't given birth to a healthy bairn can become a full priestess.

[daskindt]

The subcults are another aspect of RQG that I’m finding far less interesting than HeroQuest.

As an example, the distinction between Adventerous and Thunderous is barely relevant. As has been pointed out, once initiated to either, a single additional point of POW opens both aspect fully. It doesn’t feel like a meaningful decision. Subcults for the Thunderous Brothers or herocults like Ulanin get even more disappointing. HeroQuest handles the many varied subcults in far more interesting ways.

 

[Oracle]

6 hours ago, daskindt said:

The subcults are another aspect of RQG that I’m finding far less interesting than HeroQuest.

As an example, the distinction between Adventerous and Thunderous is barely relevant. As has been pointed out, once initiated to either, a single additional point of POW opens both aspect fully. It doesn’t feel like a meaningful decision. Subcults for the Thunderous Brothers or herocults like Ulanin get even more disappointing. HeroQuest handles the many varied subcults in far more interesting ways.

 

Does it? As far as I can say, subcults in HeroQuest provide Feats specific for this subcult. In RQG this is reflected by special Rune Spells provided by the subcult only. So it is not just the additional POW sacrifice, which raises the player character's Rune Point pool ...

Or do I miss something else?

[daskindt]

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

Does it? As far as I can say, subcults in HeroQuest provide Feats specific for this subcult. In RQG this is reflected by special Rune Spells provided by the subcult only. So it is not just the additional POW sacrifice, which raises the player character's Rune Point pool ...

Or do I miss something else?

Once you sacrifice a point of POW to the second aspect of a cult, like Adventerous and Thunderous, you add a new special Rune spell from the previously restricted aspect, you increase your original Rune Pool by 1, and you now continue to use the Rune Pool of the default cult but you can now learn all the special magics of the subcult too. There’s no longer any meaningful difference between the two. You can freely learn whichever magics from both aspects.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, daskindt said:

There’s no longer any meaningful difference between the two. You can freely learn whichever magics from both aspects.

But should there ever have been? This is still one god. That your clan followed the Thunderous aspects, and another clan followed the Adventurous tradition, means that you see the impact of Orlanth differently. But those heroes who seek the ways of Orlanth learn that these are all just aspects of him - and why they are heroes.  The heroes shape Orlanth as they shape themselves.

10 hours ago, daskindt said:

HeroQuest handles the many varied subcults in far more interesting ways.

Depending on the timeframe looked at, HQ also went way overboard on fragmenting the gods into micro-gods (particularly the HW/HQ1 period). 

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think it's normal for Eurmali to join multiple subcults. If Remove Hand is your only spell then the jokes will quickly become stale.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it's normal for Eurmali to join multiple subcults. If Remove Hand is your only spell then the jokes will quickly become stale.

Bad news for you, Phil - most Eurmali jokes will quickly become stale.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If Remove Hand is your only spell then the jokes will quickly become stale.

Guaranteed to break the ice at parties, though!

[Julian Lord]

On 2/16/2019 at 7:09 PM, womble said:

A Hero Cult is just another Subcult

I don't think that will always be the case -- there are some seriously weird Hero cults, that might have some quite particular entry requirements and might require their own Rune Point number in RQG terms, as a means to represent that weirdness.

But yes, I'd agree that your statement would be the general reality in the great majority of cases.

On 2/16/2019 at 7:48 PM, soltakss said:

Uggh, that has changed for RQG, then. So, you don't have subcults of Aspects, instead Aspects are just another subcult of the cult.

That means that the Sandalds of darkness subcult would be available to any Olrnath worshipper, rather than just Orlanth Adventurous. I suppose that sort-of makes sense.

hmmm, I think that the whole Aspects thingy has been a bit flawed from the get-go, and I suppose that its time was between about the RuneQuest Renaissance era and HW/HQ

It was never really explained why only a "Great God" could have more than a single Aspect, for instance. The Thanatar cult would appear to have two, just for starters.

The Aspects concept does remain as a good tool in the toolbox of anyone attempting a cult write-up, because it can certainly be an contributing guideline as to how to imagine and organise your vision of the cult and of the deity around an existing conceptual framework -- but as a rules guideline, I think it's overly limiting.

[PhilHibbs]

Another data point is the Aldrya cult, where the natural progression is by leaving one subcult and joining another.

[womble]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Another data point is the Aldrya cult, where the natural progression is by leaving one subcult and joining another.

Aye, 'leaving' might mean you're 'not in the original one' any more, and don't get to sac for its Special Rune Magic... I guess it will depend on the Cult.

[PhilHibbs]

41 minutes ago, womble said:

Aye, 'leaving' might mean you're 'not in the original one' any more, and don't get to sac for its Special Rune Magic... I guess it will depend on the Cult.

Well, the Aldrya subcults all have the same plus some bonus ones at the later stages, but I assume you don't lose the RP or rune spells that you got from the previous subcult. I don't know if Aldrya is unusual in that you have to leave the old subcult to join the new. Probably you have to leave Orlanth Adventurous when you become chief and join Rex, but I'm sure you keep the Lightning and all the RP.

The way we've always played Eurmal in the past is that every shrine is a different subcult, and you have to go through whatever humiliating and often deadly ritual that the acolyte-in-charge comes up with to join the subcult and get the spell.

Edited February 18, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[womble]

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, the Aldrya subcults all have the same plus some bonus ones at the later stages, but I assume you don't lose the RP or rune spells that you got from the previous subcult. I don't know if Aldrya is unusual in that you have to leave the old subcult to join the new. Probably you have to leave Orlanth Adventurous when you become chief and join Rex, but I'm sure you keep the Lightning and all the RP.

I concur that it would be an egregious disincentive to an Adventurous Wind Lord or a Thunderous Voice with a snoot full of Rune Points against becoming a Chieftain if they lost their spells and already-sacced RPs. I agree that they probably don't. The question is whether they can still sacrifice for the Adventurous/Thunderous spells that they hadn't already acquired, once they join Rex (or any other subcult, like Ulanin).

The examples on p282-283 aren't definitive, but the wording in Vasana's joining test example "...she would like to join the Thunderous subcult, extending her worship of Orlanth..." [my emphasis] is suggestive that it's an addition, not a replacement, but could be read either way. For an established Initiate of a God, switching between the subcults would be purely a matter of pestering the admitting Priests repeatedly and in turn, until they got tired of your vaccilation...

I suppose in a lot of ways joining a given subcult is about availability. If you're a member of a Clan with history of worshipping a given Hero, you'll be able to find a Priest to give you the test for entry with little effort, and they won't set hard tests. If you're a stranger to that Clan, you might find it more difficult. For Orlanth, it's just that Rex, Thunderous, Vinga and Adventurous are commonplace in the core book's Homelands. It would suck though if having joined Ulanin, you had to 'go back' to Adventurous, just because you hadn't learned Shield yet.

[PhilHibbs]

I'm not too bothered that this hasn't been detailed. I'm sure the answer is "It varies". In the Rex example, you could be a stay-at-home chief who rules from the chair, or you could be a warrior-king figure who leads the armies from the front. The former would not take part in the Adventurous rites, and so would effectively lapse from the cult in practice if not formally; the latter would play up the heroic leader role and lead the Adventurous ceremonies, with the opportunities to gain new Adventurous magic.

[Kloster]

On 2/16/2019 at 8:36 PM, Darius West said:

3) Is there any reason why men can't venerate Vinga and get the "Fearless" spell?

 

On 2/17/2019 at 1:04 AM, womble said:

3) Yes, there is a reason. They are men. They don't qualify, any more than an Ernaldan who hasn't given birth to a healthy bairn can become a full priestess. 

I think that the answer would be the same for the 'none' sex characters: They are no men, but are no women either, but I wonder what would be the answer for the 'both' sex (hermaphrodites).

[Kloster]

RQG p302:

Storm Voice (Rune Priest) Orlanth Thunderous Subcult. Requirements: Standard. Storm Voices are the spiritual leaders of the Orlanthi. A candidate must belong to the
Thunderous subcult.
Wind Lord (Rune Lord) Orlanth Adventurous Subcult. Requirements: Wind Lords are the temporal leaders of the Orlanthi.

So, to be a Rune Lord/Priest, you need to be a member of both subcults. You then have access to both sets of spells, you need to spend an extra POW to join the 2nd subcult and you have only 1 Rune point pool (see P 282).