Egregious munchkinnery!

[whitelaughter]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:46 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I don't get why you'd have to "try really hard to convince" your GM... I would consider them fairly basic spells. As you wrote, there are Spirit Magic equivalents already in the game.

And Enhance in the previous boxed set edition covered every attribute except INT and POW!

[Mugen]

 

On 11/29/2022 at 10:25 AM, Joerg said:

Not sure whether I did the calculation - when it comes to RQ, I know my house-ruled RQ3, even though I nowadays run RQG - but the limit for sorcerous extension is how much POW you inscribed for that spell. Spending the POW on Enhance INT might be the munchkin's choice, as having that spell active allows you to cast any spell at high intensities, although the MP-saving feature of that method makes it attractive for any spell. Trouble is how to get all that POW.

Which begs the question whether there is a POW-dampening sorcery for lowering your POW temporarily in order to succeed in the POW gain rolls... You'd have to spend at least a couple of weeks under that spell, though, but if you spend your time studying something else full time, that's not that much of a hardship. Same for other characteristics for self study, and possibly for skill ratings, too?

I remember someone calculated how high INT could become if a Sorcerer tried to cast Enhance INT multiple times on himself, and the result is not the same.

Your first Enhance spell is limited by your base INT, but if you cast it a second time, then the max INT you can get is now based on your newly increased INT.

I remember that the bonus INT was lower after each casting of the spell, resulting in a maximum INT value for the Sorcerer.

I also don't remember any mention of spells inscriptions in this discussion. It's possible you can reach even higher values with that rule.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Mugen

[Mugen]

6 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

And Enhance in the previous boxed set edition covered every attribute except INT and POW!

And given how important INT is in Sorcery, this seems like a good decision. 

With the Runes/Techniques rule in RQG, I don't know how sorcerers without the right Rune to learn that spell can compete.

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Mugen said:

 

I remember someone calculated how high INT could become if a Sorcerer tried to cast Enhance INT multiple times on himself, and the result is not the same.

Your first Enhance spell is limited by your base INT, but if you cast it a second time, then the max INT you can get is now based on your newly increased INT.

I remember that the bonus INT was lower after each casting of the spell, resulting in a maximum INT value for the Sorcerer.

I also don't remember any mention of spells inscriptions in this discussion. It's possible you can reach even higher values with that rule.

IIRC, if you started with 21 INT, you could get it up to about 28 (due to diminishing returns on the 4:1 Intensity:INT ratio), but not for very long.

With Inscriptions (and, dare I suggest, POW Enhancing crystals, etc), that could go higher...

However, there's no GOOD reason why someone couldn't do a LM HQ to gain a spell that doubles (base) INT, as we have for STR, CHA, etc.

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Mugen said:

And given how important INT is in Sorcery, this seems like a good decision. 

That sounds an aweful lot like trying to impose.... balance  🤢

[davecake]

On 12/4/2022 at 2:16 PM, Shiningbrow said:

That sounds an aweful lot like trying to impose.... balance  🤢

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is making the fiction fit the rules. Enhance INT, associated with the Fire Rune, would be a massive advantage to sorcerers who had the Fire Rune over all other sorcerers. Do we have anything in Gloranthan lore that suggests that Fire rune sorcerers are particularly powerful and notable? 

I don't think so, so they shouldn't be in the rules either. So IMG Enhance INT exists, but does not effect Free INT. It can make you good at a bunch of other stuff though. But of course, this is the egregious munchkinery thread, so go nuts. 

[JRE]

I would say, at least looking at the spells in the rulebook, that Fire is one of the favoured Elemental Runes in Sorcery, and I am sure it is means that many sorcerers will choose Fire. After all, it will be the highest rune affinity of many sorcerers anyway.

Spells in the rulebook:

Darkness: 2

Water: 7 (half dealing with ships)

Earth: 2

Fire: 8 (one with Moon)

Air: 3

Moon: 1 (And it has Fire as well).

Remember that having Fire (to save some MPs in the Enhance INT spells you will be casting quite often) allows you to cast also Water and Earth spells. Earth is not so good right now, but Water is the other main sorcerous element, as presented in the Rulebook.

Maybe it was not the intention of the writers, but this is what we are shown in the rules.

I extended the Enhance stats, using the runic association, so besides Enhance INT a Fire Rune sorcerer can learn and cast (at extra cost) Enhance DEX and Enhance CON. Quite useful ones, Extra HP and the sweet spot when you get 21 DEX.

We are currently using a house rule that allows you to use your own Elemental Runic affinity in place of a Technique (and acting as a maximum value for your spells). We proposed it to allow non-sorcerer castes to use some sorcery and even spontaneous sorcery use. Our sorcerer still has the Fire Technique because he got it before we proposed the rule, but is doing some magic with his Air affinity (as it is not one of his accesible elements). As I said above, all sorcerers with a minimum of munchkinness will have a strong Fire, so I would make that Runic association extend into the spells they learn.

 

 

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

I would say, at least looking at the spells in the rulebook, that Fire is one of the favoured Elemental Runes in Sorcery, and I am sure it is means that many sorcerers will choose Fire. After all, it will be the highest rune affinity of many sorcerers anyway.

It is the most favoured rune _in Dragon Pass and Kethaela_ as the spell list represents the spells known there rather than worldwide.

 

[davecake]

14 hours ago, JRE said:

I would say, at least looking at the spells in the rulebook, that Fire is one of the favoured Elemental Runes in Sorcery, and I am sure it is means that many sorcerers will choose Fire.

Yes, which is the exact opposite of what I suggested, which was to look at the lore and see if that suggests Fire is dominant. Given that I can't see anything in any of the sources to suggest that Fire sorcerers are dominant, or even noted, then anything in the rules which would make them so would seem to be a problem with the rules.

The opposite, if anything - Water sorcerers are obviously the mainstay of the Waertagi but also seem very significant among the God Learners (and the Water spells in the rules suggest sorcery is absolutely massive in naval battles), Earth magic is important in the history of Seshnela, Darkness sorcery is known to Arkati sorcerers, especially the troll ones, Orlanth linked sorcery sects are known (eg the Chariot of Lightning sect), even Irrippi Ontor uses Moon sorcery, but Fire seems the least noted elemental sorcery in Gloranthan history, which would be very weird if it was obviously the most beneficial to a sorcerer by far - Enhance INT RAW means it substantially benefits literally every other use of sorcery, which no other element comes close to. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, JRE said:

I would say, at least looking at the spells in the rulebook, that Fire is one of the favoured Elemental Runes in Sorcery, and I am sure it is means that many sorcerers will choose Fire. After all, it will be the highest rune affinity of many sorcerers anyway.

i dont see the same. There are more fire in the spells we have but in my opinion, it is just because it is easier to "understand" or to imagine when use the spell with fire rune. but we may have their equivalent

 

the obvious enhance INT STR

call light wind

conflagration blast (replace heat effect by knock back effect)

create image / odor (already designed)

create wall of flames shield of wind

disappear  ? not enough imagination

finger of fire lightning

moonfire thunderstorm (replace lunar cycle issue by cloud cover requested)

 

so I have only one "issue" with the fire spells in the book but pretty sure others (or I later) may find something

and I used but that the same with earth, darkness, water. of course some spells may be efficient or not depending on the location (a cave, the sky, deep ocean ...)

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:33 PM, davecake said:

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is making the fiction fit the rules. Enhance INT, associated with the Fire Rune, would be a massive advantage to sorcerers who had the Fire Rune over all other sorcerers. Do we have anything in Gloranthan lore that suggests that Fire rune sorcerers are particularly powerful and notable? 

Well, true, but I think that's more because we don't have a lot regarding the sp0ecifics of lands where sorcery is dominant. We do know that sorcery has been used to combine Fire and Water to great effect!

On 12/8/2022 at 8:33 PM, davecake said:

I don't think so, so they shouldn't be in the rules either. So IMG Enhance INT exists, but does not effect Free INT. It can make you good at a bunch of other stuff though. But of course, this is the egregious munchkinery thread, so go nuts. 

I think the spell (and Rune) are much more common that you are thinking they are, but the effective powerfulness really depends on one's starting point. Very few in Glorantha are going to start with a high INT anyway, and so the extra points from the spell are only going to have minimal effect on the population. And then factor in that the INT may be enhanced by a few points - but not for very long. An above average INT (16) sorcerer has to use up an additional 4 MP/Strength just to get the spell 4working for an hour. That's already a quarter of their allotment of Free INT. Meaning, they're only going to go up to about 20 or 21*. Sure, handy, but hardly earth shattering. I'd put it on a par with the other Enhance spells - including POW.

Inscriptions? Sure, but at the ratio of 4:1, it's not going to make a huge impact for a while.

(*and that assumes that all Free INT is available... And if those other spells are being inscribed too, then the drag becomes more obvious)

So, ultimately, it's a nice spell, but hot all that amazing in the long run, not so significant as to really derail a game, or the game world.

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

.And then factor in that the INT may be enhanced by a few points - but not for very long. An above average INT (16) sorcerer has to use up an additional 4 MP/Strength just to get the spell 4working for an hour. That's already a quarter of their allotment of Free INT. Meaning, they're only going to go up to about 20 or 21*. Sure, handy, but hardly earth shattering. I'd put it on a par with the other Enhance spells - including POW.

Note you're not restricted to only one casting of this spell.

Once you've set your INT to 20, you can cast the spell again with this new Free INT, then repeat. There's a point where you won't be able to increase your INT, and the final value will be lowered by the need to have a longer duration (because, obviously, you won't do this everyday), but it's definitely not 20 or 21.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

Note you're not restricted to only one casting of this spell.

Once you've set your INT to 20, you can cast the spell again with this new Free INT, then repeat. There's a point where you won't be able to increase your INT, and the final value will be lowered by the need to have a longer duration (because, obviously, you won't do this everyday), but it's definitely not 20 or 21.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the recasting.

If your starting INT is 16, then you get a +4 boost to INT, taking it to 20 (no duration). You then recast at 20 INT, giving you +5, but only to your base 16 (as the higher spell over-rides the original casting). You're now at 21, and this extra 1 point does nothing for you (with regards to recasting this spell).

If you start at 21 INT, then your first casting gets you +5, taking you to 26. Free INT of 26 gets you +6, taking you to 27.

Inscriptions, however, add indefinitely...

But... 5 mins of 27 INT ....????? hmmmmmmm

[Mugen]

 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yes, I'm fully aware of the recasting.

If your starting INT is 16, then you get a +4 boost to INT, taking it to 20 (no duration). You then recast at 20 INT, giving you +5, but only to your base 16 (as the higher spell over-rides the original casting). You're now at 21, and this extra 1 point does nothing for you (with regards to recasting this spell).

If you start at 21 INT, then your first casting gets you +5, taking you to 26. Free INT of 26 gets you +6, taking you to 27.

Inscriptions, however, add indefinitely...

But... 5 mins of 27 INT ....????? hmmmmmmm

Sounds right...

I read very different numbers, but surely the person who did the maths assumed the INT stacked...

[davecake]

On 12/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Very few in Glorantha are going to start with a high INT anyway

Well, sure, but in sorcerous societies those very few are overwhelmingly going to become sorcerers? Literally, the rules say those with an INT above 16 become sorcerers in Rokari soriety. So literally every sorcerer has a high INT. 

 

On 12/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Shiningbrow said:

and so the extra points from the spell are only going to have minimal effect on the population

Well, sure because most of the population aren't sorcerers? However, when discussing which runes sorcery uses, we really only are concerned about those that are sorcerers. 

[examples of complex stacking of Enhance INT]

One of the things I disliked about RQ3 sorcery was this sort of complex maths to calculate optimal casting. RQG not only decided to double down on it, but because day of the week etc are now relevant, added calendars as well as spreadsheets. So basically, playing a sorcerer has become an exercise in project management. 

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, davecake said:

So literally every sorcerer has a high INT. 

No. You've cited only one example. And there are contrary examples. Unless you're choosing to define "high INT" as merely 13 or higher. Aeolians only require an INT of 14...

12 minutes ago, davecake said:

Well, sure because most of the population aren't sorcerers? However, when discussing which runes sorcery uses, we really only are concerned about those that are sorcerers. 

True, but then you mentioned Gloranthan Lore, and that pretty much narrows down what you're looking for - and what's specifically been written about. I don't recall reading anything, anywhere, about what runes have been used in sorcery (other than the RQG book which you've just quoted above)... and the fire/water combination.

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

One of the things I disliked about RQ3 sorcery was this sort of complex maths to calculate optimal casting. RQG not only decided to double down on it, but because day of the week etc are now relevant, added calendars as well as spreadsheets. So basically, playing a sorcerer has become an exercise in project management.

yes. well... it's appropriate. If you want to play a sorcerer, then you can start to think like one as well 😄

[davecake]

33 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't recall reading anything, anywhere, about what runes have been used in sorcery (other than the RQG book which you've just quoted above)... and the fire/water combination.

What you haven't read is not evidence of anything. I cited several other examples in my original post in the thread. 

[davecake]

34 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If you want to play a sorcerer, then you can start to think like one as well 😄

Ah yes. If you want to play a merchant, take up accounting and maintain inventory. If you want to play a musician, learn to play an instrument and learn all the scales. Etc. Making your player do the busywork and unexciting parts of your characters life is the opposite of good game design. 

[Bill the barbarian]

Uh uh, PhilHibbs has egregiously discovered the button.

[Mugen]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Ah yes. If you want to play a merchant, take up accounting and maintain inventory. If you want to play a musician, learn to play an instrument and learn all the scales. Etc. Making your player do the busywork and unexciting parts of your characters life is the opposite of good game design. 

I think we should report to the police all those players who played an assassin...

[whitelaughter]

Ideally, there should be a sliding scale of rules knowledge required for different character types. This is why early editions of D&D did really well. Fighters required nothing, thieves some knowledge, clerics a reasonable amount and MUs needed to memorise pretty much everything. They goofed that in later editions, requiring people playing fighters to learn about feats, and then wondered why people stuck to the earlier editions.

Runequest doesn't have a character type that only requires minimal investment: although the spinoffs do; CoC's expendable PCs comes to mind. If a character could 'lease' out their Free INT/CHA to other spellcasters, as a sort of human familiar, that would remove the need to worry about spell selection. Replacing Runes and Passions with a flat 'bonus to X rolls' ability would further simplify things.

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/9/2022 at 1:40 PM, davecake said:

Yes, which is the exact opposite of what I suggested, which was to look at the lore and see if that suggests Fire is dominant. Given that I can't see anything in any of the sources to suggest that Fire sorcerers are dominant, or even noted, then anything in the rules which would make them so would seem to be a problem with the rules.

The opposite, if anything - Water sorcerers are obviously the mainstay of the Waertagi but also seem very significant among the God Learners (and the Water spells in the rules suggest sorcery is absolutely massive in naval battles), Earth magic is important in the history of Seshnela, Darkness sorcery is known to Arkati sorcerers, especially the troll ones, Orlanth linked sorcery sects are known (eg the Chariot of Lightning sect), even Irrippi Ontor uses Moon sorcery, but Fire seems the least noted elemental sorcery in Gloranthan history, which would be very weird if it was obviously the most beneficial to a sorcerer by far - Enhance INT RAW means it substantially benefits literally every other use of sorcery, which no other element comes close to. 

This is a gross over-simplification of sorcery, and does not - by itself - indicate that non-"fire sorcerers" (as you keep using the term) don't use the Fire rune... In fact, this post suggests you think that someone who is a 'water sorcerer' would not have the Fire rune at all, nor the Earth sorcerers, nor any other...

Do you have any actual Gloranthan lore to suggest that any of those you just wrote about don't use the Fire rune in any way?

After all, Ive already given one example of how Fire combined with Water has played a significant part in Gloranthan lore.

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:33 PM, davecake said:

Ah yes. If you want to play a merchant, take up accounting and maintain inventory. If you want to play a musician, learn to play an instrument and learn all the scales.

I have no idea how you think these could be considered relevant analogies to what I wrote... I'm talking about looking at ONE calendar  to see the bonuses applicable... and you somehow want to turn that into meaning the player needs to actually be a fully trained sorcerer... Talk about exaggeration!

Besides, to actually address your "analogies" (ha!), if someone wants to play a merchant, they could it all your way, which would probably be:

GM: How much money do you want to invest?

Player: 500L

GM: ok, roll the Bargain.

Player: (rolls success)

GM: Ok, you now have 550L.

The end.

 

Alternatively, one could play a merchant that uses Evaluate to determine what goods are available in an area, and what they might be worth in a different area. This could incorporate different types of goods. Then, they roll the Bargain, and take a note.. .(eg, 500L spent has potentially acquired 550L in goods, at standard local  rates). Then, they travel (hire guards, pay tolls, pay for other expenses), and then try to offload the goods at another place (roll dice).

Similarly, if one is playing a fighter, the Davecake way would be not to worry about silly little things like armour, weapon stats or hit points... just roll the dice and make a decision.

Lots of games out there that are like that, and people are free to play them... I prefer a bit more verisimilitude in my games! And for the player to expend a bit of effort occasionally.

 

 

(@philhibbs - hit me with your off-topic stick.. hit me, hit me

hit me with your off-topic stick

 hiiiiittt.... mmmeeeee!!!!)

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm talking about looking at ONE calendar  to see the bonuses applicable... and you somehow want to turn that into meaning the player needs to actually be a fully trained sorcerer... Talk about exaggeration!

No. I am in no way implying that your player has to learn about runes, the denizens of the otherworld, the or the laws of magic. That even sounds fun. I'm just saying they have to do project management, which does not sound fun to me at all. They end up doing what everyone did in RQ3 - create big spreadsheets working out how many spells they can manage to keep up, by working out how many Free INT points they can have (in RQG by multiple castings of Enhance INT), how that matches to their stored POW and POW regeneration reserves, how to get their (often quite small) casting %age up to something substantial, usually by multiple days of preparation, and procuring various necessary material and casting on the right day of the week/week of season/season, and so on. You do a lot of fairly dull stuff, to try to optimise efficiency of casting, because you are an RQG sorcerer and you are pretty useful at casting helpful sorcerer in actual adventure (you know about 3 spells that you can even reliably cast without hours of preparation, and they still take long enough that the fight is likely over), so you try really hard to make sure your character is as prepared as they can be (and has buffed your friends), because that is basically where all your utility is. Basically, other players do a bit of stuff about talking to their gods etc, you spend a few hours on spreadsheets. 

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Besides, to actually address your "analogies" (ha!), if someone wants to play a merchant, they could it all your way,

My way is to spend time on the *interesting* details. Hey, they sold you some weapons that you think they got from a Lunar Patrol, or they have troll goods for sale where did they get those, or ancient treasure or foreign goods or the special flowers that you can show the priestess. What isn't very interesting is, say, monitoring the effective carrying capacity, feed requirements, and hoof health for each of 12 mules. 

My point is that in the RQG sorcery system your effectiveness as a sorcerer is directly connected to doing a large amount of boring busywork about how many days you spend meditating to have a chance at casting that Enhance INT which is just used to enhance your Free INT for the next spell that takes several days to cast as well, but how many days, because that determines what the Enhance INT duration needs to be, but maybe if I did that later in the season it might not need to be as long and oh god I am bored just even thinking about how dull it gets. And a sorcerer that doesn't do all that and just casts sorcery spells without doing masses of preparation is often either fairly pointless or completely uninteresting, limited and inflexible, or both. Not only does 'will this be fun to play?' not seem to be a design goal, I sometimes think it was designed to be dull on purpose.