Egregious munchkinnery!

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Obviously, cast before your Shield, because you'll have to overcome all that Countermagic and boosting 😛

Spirit Armor enchantment might be the better solution, honestly.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe Ward Against Weapons sorcery works, as it rolls to resist damage rather than work like armor.

It works.

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Against missile attacks, holding a shield to cover your head while fighting with the weapon works.

Same.

[Nick Underwood]

37 pages... Did we get:

Roll Hero Ancestor as a boon. Choose Daka Fal assistant Shaman. Cast Incarnate Ancestor. Repeat until fumble? 

GM may reasonably insist you are dead. But that's just spoil sport. 

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

37 pages... Did we get:

Roll Hero Ancestor as a boon. Choose Daka Fal assistant Shaman. Cast Incarnate Ancestor. Repeat until fumble? 

GM may reasonably insist you are dead. But that's just spoil sport. 

It's not clear that above-standard Ancestors can be incarnated. Lots and lots of Heortlings have Vingkot and/or Heort among their ancestors, but I would strongly doubt that they're available for incarnation.

[Nick Underwood]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not clear that above-standard Ancestors can be incarnated. Lots and lots of Heortlings have Vingkot and/or Heort among their ancestors

Hmm... If I were of a mind to gainsay my GM, (totally against my every natural inclination) I might claim that this clearly *my* direct Ancestor, generated as a part of my personal background, and not a generic clan Ancestor - why would I gain reputation within my immediate circle from a clan Ancestor that we all share. 

Of course, I expect my GM would agree and wish me luck watching my personal Ancestor from the spirit world while he played him as an npc...

[Nick Underwood]

13 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Cast Incarnate Ancestor. Repeat until fumble? 

Ooh. I got a heart from @PhilHibbs!

But when I tried this Phil, the 22D6 POW broke your excellent CharGen sheet !

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Ooh. I got a heart from @PhilHibbs!

But when I tried this Phil, the 22D6 POW broke your excellent CharGen sheet !

Anyone that's munchkin enough to find a legit way to break my spreadsheet is a true hero of the community in my books.

If you un-hide the Lookups tab, you should be able to extend the tables as far as you need. Oh, you mean a stat roll... ah that's harder. I guess I shiould fix that in case anyone wants to play a 15m tall giant.

Where does 22D6 come from?

Edited July 3, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Nick Underwood]

24 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does 22D6 come from?

It was just a joke about munchkinning up an heroic Ancestor to Incarnate. I mean only a dweeb would try to roll up a character that ridiculously overpowered, right?

(BTW if any dweebs do want to try it. It can be achieved in Phil's CharGen sheet by inserting 19 rows between the last stat roll and the stat totals, and then c&p'ing the formulas. I do not know how I know that...) 

[soltakss]

On 6/30/2020 at 4:13 PM, Shiningbrow said:

On 6/30/2020 at 4:09 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, Spirit Combat is a nuisance under this set-up. You should probably try to get yourself a Spirit Block matrix at some point. Or cast an extended Spirit Block from another cult. 

Obviously, cast before your Shield, because you'll have to overcome all that Countermagic and boosting 😛

I think that Spirit Block and shield are incompatible.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I think that Spirit Block and shield are incompatible.

I don’t believe this is in the rules.

You may be thinking of how Spirit Screen is incompatible with Protection. Shield itself is surprisingly allowing.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

I think that Spirit Block and shield are incompatible.

I don’t believe this is in the rules.

You are correct, thanks.

That is a big change.

It used to be incompatible, which was another reason why spirits were deadly, you had to either use Shield or Spirit Block, so could be good for combat/spells or spirits but not both.

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Spell Barrage 

Each point of Spell Barrage allows the shaman to throw one additional spirit spell simultaneously. All spells cost the full 
magic point amount. The strike rank is equal to the shaman’s DEX strike rank, plus the magic points spent, and all the spells go off simultaneously. Only one roll for success is 
made, and either all spells succeed or all fail. If multiple attack spells are aimed at a single target, a single resistance roll is made to see if the target was affected by all the spells 
at once. Multiple targets must all be visible to the shaman.If the shaman’s player rolls a critical success or a normal failure when casting, the shaman only spends 1 magic point, regardless of the number of spells or their cost.

 

From the section on discorporation we have:

When discorporate, the shaman cannot use the fetch’s magic points to defend or attack, though they can use the fetch’s magic points to fuel spells. 

 

Our group assumed you add the Fetch's POW to the Shaman's POW for Spell attack and defense when in the Material World. This QUICKLY GETS BONKERS. With normal mortals maxing out at 21 POW a shaman can pretty quickly ensure 95% succes on every casting of a spell. Combine with several pointa of Spell Barrage and all your RP in Multispell and become DISRUPTION GATLING. Firing up to Disruptiom 22s at however many targets you have Spell Barrage,  or however many targets and stacks your Munchkin Enabling GM agrees to let you disintegrate in a single volley. Our Shaman was throwing out 18 disruptions at once with 30 some total POW.

[Austin]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned either, but I don't think there's anything preventing an adventurer from using Control/Command spells to force an entity to sacrifice POW into an enchantment they're making. I mean, apart from being a massively evil (and possibly Chaotic?) act. No rules prevention.

The main question is "how long does it take to sacrifice POW?" but that can be circumvented with Control + Spell Extension. (And yeah, I really doubt you could get away with it with a Command Cult Spirit due to y'know, pissing off your god.) 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned either, but I don't think there's anything preventing an adventurer from using Control/Command spells to force an entity to sacrifice POW into an enchantment they're making. I mean, apart from being a massively evil (and possibly Chaotic?) act. No rules prevention.

The main question is "how long does it take to sacrifice POW?" but that can be circumvented with Control + Spell Extension. (And yeah, I really doubt you could get away with it with a Command Cult Spirit due to y'know, pissing off your god.) 

This just part of a wider problem - can you buy slaves and force them to sacrifice POW for your project through a mix of punishments and rewards? Slaves aren't that expensive, and it's a pretty solid deal for a slave to be offered his or her freedom for a sacrifice of, say, 5 POW (for optimization, buy the cheapest slaves you can find - you don't care about their ability to work, after all).  

(And this is the kind of munchkinnery that this thread is about!)

[Austin]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

This just part of a wider problem - can you buy slaves and force them to sacrifice POW for your project through a mix of punishments and rewards? Slaves aren't that expensive, and it's a pretty solid deal for a slave to be offered his or her freedom for a sacrifice of, say, 5 POW (for optimization, buy the cheapest slaves you can find - you don't care about their ability to work, after all).  

(And this is the kind of munchkinnery that this thread is about!)

That... is significantly better than what my players came up with. Although, in part their decision to drain a spirit was a creative solution to getting rid of a demon.

Moderately off topic, I'm considering house-ruling that only persons of initiate or higher in the same cult as the enchanter can add POW to an enchantment. Or, that they also need to succeed at the same Rune affinity roll being used. Or both. That doesn't fix spirit magic or sorcery enchantments, though.

Extra persons adding POW is, in my opinion, one of the rules which most quickly leads to exploitation. Depends on how big you can make a Rune magic matrix. I don't think that's been defined, although I remember seeing arguments about whether or not you could make a matrix bigger than you could potentially cast on your own.

[Austin]

39 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Let's your shaman meet the "Grenade Chaman" : A man who always have some relaxations stones in hands ... and the moment he feel secure, let him see the power of Spell barage of Fire rain (fire-arrow x4 : 12D6); And the moment you rolls the dice (secretly), tell him "oh oh oh critical roll, only 1PM cost for so much firepower..." don't tell the spell name nor the cost, only ROLL YOUR 12D6... 1MP for 12D6, anyone will be afraid !

 I enjoyed this little trick from over in the current shaman thread, although I suspect most GMs would impose penalties for trying to hit the same person with multiple rocks. Scary as hell at point-blank range. Doesn't necessarily need to be a shaman, with Multispell, even if that's the example used.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned either, but I don't think there's anything preventing an adventurer from using Control/Command spells to force an entity to sacrifice POW into an enchantment they're making. I mean, apart from being a massively evil (and possibly Chaotic?) act. No rules prevention.

They key term is "voluntary". I don't think being mind-controlled satisifies that precondition.

[MJ Sadique]

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

They key term is "voluntary". I don't think being mind-controlled satisfies that precondition.

  Not the only flaw of the control/command : You also need to give them the proper order AND Ritual take at least 1 full hour but most spell end long before that !

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This just part of a wider problem - can you buy slaves and force them to sacrifice POW for your project through a mix of punishments and rewards? Slaves aren't that expensive, and it's a pretty solid deal for a slave to be offered his or her freedom for a sacrifice of, say, 5 POW (for optimization, buy the cheapest slaves you can find - you don't care about their ability to work, after all).  

(And this is the kind of munchkinnery that this thread is about!)

Cheap Slaves to do your job : Good idea but to create an enchantment a slave need to know the spell/ritual and to be able to perform it and then you can command it (with stick and carrot or a dagger under his neck). But Alas, You indeed need to find a cheap Enchanter, someone probably around a hundred silvers but if you buy cheap slave and then teach them during a few years how to do the ritual ... before realising it, you just get yourself an Apprentice / Disciple / Follower. 🤣

ZERO Munchkinnery ... Aiming to be a Chaman and taking a lot of apprentices is simpler. POW gain is limited to one per season and worship 3 per years ...so pretty limited. A magician could get 5 POW a years, he get an income around 200L per year (10 Cows).

HOW to ? :

1/ Simply by the most old praxian method "Khan of Khans" You need to deal with the 5POW = 10Cows, with around 50 cows, you get 25 POW of enchantment per year (remember money is for the weak, Cows are the real money around kethaela n' Prax)

2/ The Old snatch method : Multispell 4 + control (human) = Control x5. With 50% success x 5 try = 96% success global OR 96% success x 5 try = 1 chance on ten millions to fail. So how do you make money cows with that ? Easy ... the Ransom Magic, find a rich and not friendly/part of the clan "victim", a little booby trap "Oh man, he killed my favourite --but cheapest-- slave ....." And hop 10 cows in the pocket.

One slave 20L, the ransom for the man who killed him 200L, the pleasure to steal him : NO PRICE !

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

They key term is "voluntary". I don't think being mind-controlled satisifies that precondition.

Gah, how dare you read the rulebook!  That's what I get for letting my players munchkin while relying on memory. Your slave exploit's still on the table though.

20 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Good idea but to create an enchantment a slave need to know the spell/ritual and to be able to perform it and then you can command it (with stick and carrot or a dagger under his neck). But Alas, You indeed need to find a cheap Enchanter, someone probably around a hundred silvers but if you buy cheap slave and then teach them during a few years how to do the ritual

You don't need to teach the slave anything. You do the enchantment yourself, and others can contribute POW as they wish (RQG 249). And the enchantment spirit magic spells are dirt cheap.

Apprentices would depend on the shaman tradition. I can't see mainstream Praxians or ancestor-worshipers thinking it's okay, but some Darkness traditions? Absolutely.

23 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

You need to deal with the 5POW = 10Cows

Why would 5 POW be worth 10 cows? A cow's worth 20L (or a wheel), so that's only 200L. Per the Rune magic chapter, the rough price to pay for a one-use Rune spell to be cast is 200L (ten times the default price per point, 20L). That's the only "lunars per POW" approximation I know of.

[Akhôrahil]

38 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Cheap Slaves to do your job : Good idea but to create an enchantment a slave need to know the spell/ritual and to be able to perform it and then you can command it

Not the case. You do the ritual, and then other people can put POW into it. (You have to put in one POW, though.)

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, Crel said:

Gah, how dare you read the rulebook!  That's what I get for letting my players munchkin while relying on memory. Your slave exploit's still on the table though.

I think "voluntary" can reasonably be argued about even in that case, but you can make modifications to it. "Here you go, I bought you and now I freed you. A donation of POW would be welcome, though." Now we're in the territory of gift-debt (or even actual gratitude!) instead of coercion.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Austin]

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Now we're in the territory of gift-debt instead of coercion.

Sorta like "The Orlanthi don't have slaves" but there's an awful lot of unfree folk running around...

[MJ Sadique]

 

34 minutes ago, Crel said:

Why would 5 POW be worth 10 cows? A cow's worth 20L (or a wheel), so that's only 200L. Per the Rune magic chapter, the rough price to pay for a one-use Rune spell to be cast is 200L (ten times the default price per point, 20L). That's the only "lunars per POW" approximation I know of.

One-use spell cost a lost because few people possess such spell and can use them (ie ressurection) but everyone have a soul (POW) so I base the calculation with the highest income for a Good Enchanter : 200L per year and the POW regeneration rate about 1 POW per season max, 5 POW per year (Spendable). So 5 POW could be worth 10 cows. CQFD !

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not the case. You do the ritual, and then other people can put POW into it. (You have to put in one POW, though.)

But this "one POW" you spend is the limit !

If you cannot gain more than 5POW per year, you cannot do more than 5 ritual per year. You have to learn and do the ritual, spend you POW, pray nothing go wrong; But when you willl ROLL your D10 and get 12PM for 6POW spend, you'll have to cry your eyes out !

With one raid of 50 cows, you could get 25 POW of enchantment without need to learn all the spells enchantments, no ritual to do and you only buy items base on PM reserve not the POW spend to create them... a munchkin must be lazy and badass !! 😴🥳

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

With one raid of 50 cows, you could get 25 POW of enchantment without need to learn all the spells enchantments, no ritual to do and you only buy items base on PM reserve not the POW spend to create them... a munchkin must be lazy and badass !! 😴🥳

It’s basically a number you made up. We have no idea whether NPCs get POW gain rolls (in fact, the world as presented wouldn’t make sense If they did - who the heck would keep to just 3 rune points under these circumstances?), and even then, if they would get more than two such rolls per year.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

 Our group assumed you add the Fetch's POW to the Shaman's POW for Spell attack and defense when in the Material World. This QUICKLY GETS BONKERS. 

Ummmm.... I don't see that as being a thing.