What's Happening in Fronela after 1621?

[Sir_Godspeed]

30 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

I've wondered about this a lot too. Why is this okay for the New Hrestoli, and not for the Rokari? Also, can Malkioni visit their own mythic past? Like taking a trip to Danmalastan, or taking part in the Kachisti's Speaking Tour? 

For the former question - the Rokari got their prominence by being a massive reactionary movement against God Learner practices.

[Gallowglass]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

For the former question - the Rokari got their prominence by being a massive reactionary movement against God Learner practices.

But isn’t the New Hrestoli movement also a similar reaction, just in a different direction? Their vile demiurge is called Makan, the God Learner name for the Invisible God. I think I get why the Rokari abhor Heroquesting, I should have left them out of it.

[Eff]

10 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

But isn’t the New Hrestoli movement also a similar reaction, just in a different direction? Their vile demiurge is called Makan, the God Learner name for the Invisible God. I think I get why the Rokari abhor Heroquesting, I should have left them out of it.

Well, New Hrestoli Idealism rejects Makanism and God Learnerism pretty thoroughly, while the Rokari are still using that early God Learner creation/discovery, the Abiding Book. So in that sense, Loskalmi can feel more confident they're safe from God Learning, because they've surely purged all the dangerous aspects, right? Right?

Of course, the real fireworks would come from mixing God Learning with an idealism that sees the material world as inherently corrupt. The original God Learners were, at least theoretically, simply trying to understand the world better. I'm certain plenty of Loskalmi have big ideas of what they'd replace the current world with...

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

But isn’t the New Hrestoli movement also a similar reaction, just in a different direction? Their vile demiurge is called Makan, the God Learner name for the Invisible God. I think I get why the Rokari abhor Heroquesting, I should have left them out of it.

Sort of. New Hrestolism is a sect of Irsensavalism (like the original Carmanians, too), which sees the Creator as a corrupt demiurge. This, to the best of my knowledge never changed. They were persecuted by the God Learners/Makanists for their beliefs, If I've understood it correctly. They were never a part of the God Learner belief complex, and so never needed to clarify their distance.

Rokarism is more of an internal reaction within Makanism. Once the God Learners went very, very badly, there was a need to establish a new order, a new worldview that could explain all the bad fortune, and point out the scapegoats. Rokarism did that. They purged the Abiding Book into the Sharp Abiding Book, and they severely curtailed God Learner practices by outlawing or limiting their more extreme practices. 

With this in mind, their two attitudes to Otherworld exploration makes sense. 

I also believe that the old Hrestolism had its own tradition of Heroquesting, but @Joerg knows more about this than me (by a *significant* margin, Malkionism makes my head hurt.), which in case that's true, they could draw upon their own notions of it, and so avoid the God Learner stigma associated with the concept in Rokarism.

This is my interpretation, I could be wrong.

 

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

I still have a hard time getting a handle on the Loskalmi and their magic. Is it only those who have achieved the level of Wizard who actually use sorcery?

IMO I think Loskalmi use a limited amount of sorcery in the warrior caste and it is only within the Wizard Caste that they are trusted with such magics (being a wizard leads to God Learnerism which is a Bad Thing).

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

 Do they instead get Rune magic from these ancestor or Ascended Master cults? 

The Loskalmi do not get any magic from the Ascended Masters

Quote

Ascended Masters
do not provide any direct magical benefits for those who pray
to them, but can aid them in achieving Joy, serve as guides for
the faithful, and as exemplars of virtuous behavior. Ascended
Masters venerated by the Hrestoli include Xemela, Hrestol,
Tomaris, Gerlant, Arkat, Talor, Halwal, Tryensaval, Snodal, and
Siglat.

Guide p51

They would be able to get magic from ancestors (in fact, I can quite easily believe the Loskalmi encourage ancestor worship - without shamans - at the commoner and warrior ranks because it would take the piss out of the Seshnegi Noble ancestor worshippers).  I do think that in addition to the ancestor cults there are specialized occupation cults that provide magics necessary for the day job.

That said, I think the practical God-Learning starts at the warrior caste with select warriors being boosted with sorcery spells before being sent onto the Hero Planes.  I don't quite know how to handle such magics obtained - it wouldn't be sorcery but more like innate magics.  And then when they advence to the Wizard Caste they send him on a Wizard HeroQuest with the same procedure, which neatly avoids the time spent not being a wizard.

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

I've wondered about this a lot too. Why is this okay for the New Hrestoli, and not for the Rokari?

Because the Loskalmi have this special ritual medespiction (Middle Sea Empire) that allows them to avoid the pitfalls of God Learnerism by placing them in contact with the Hidden Mover.

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Also, can Malkioni visit their own mythic past? Like taking a trip to Danmalastan, or taking part in the Kachisti's Speaking Tour? 

Yes.  The God Learner Maps are based on such explorations.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Of course, the real fireworks would come from mixing God Learning with an idealism that sees the material world as inherently corrupt. The original God Learners were, at least theoretically, simply trying to understand the world better. I'm certain plenty of Loskalmi have big ideas of what they'd replace the current world with...

I was about to say, Irensavalism pretty much sees the material world as corrupt already, but it's not cartoonishly puritan, being circumscribed by the fact that, you know, people need to eat and breathe and poop, however much the Men-Of-All might dislike that dirty Makan and this gross dirt-prison he made for all the perfect and eternal Runes of the Invisible God. The best you can hope is to be tempered and refined. (Until the inevitable mad-cap scheme comes out of some Loskalmi wizard tower or whatever.)

[Jeff]

One thing to keep in mind - pretty much all Malkioni use a God Learner "vocabulary" even if they reject God Learnerism. The New Hrestoli were pretty much created through experimental heroquesting (particularly Snodal's quest to the Altinae, the murder of the God of the Silver Feet, and other actions taken to thwart Zzabur's predictions). If anything, the New Hrestoli are now "practical God Learners" who have used many of their methods (although this time for good, of course). I'm sure that in the conflict with the Kingdom of War, we are seeing even more of that.  

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

I've been experimenting quite a bit with the West and with Malkionism, and I find it works just fine.

And you are presumably extending the current rules in some ways (at least, that was certainly the intent stated in HQG), so if you think you are on the right track you may wish to take the dissatisfaction of others as a signal that sharing some extensions to the rules with the player base sooner rather than later would be welcomed.

But as your stated design intention seemed to be to make zzaburi unattractive as a player character option, and lots of people are probably interested in playing them, it is certainly possible that you may think the rules work just other fine and other people will still be very disappointed.

And tastes differ - I'm probably unlikely to be very fond of any rules that make long Duration spells the most effective option for sorcerers, as I personally dislike rules that implicitly encourage spreadsheets and schedules and optimising project management as a core play style. YMMV. 

Personally, two good sort of 'touchstone' questions for me are:

• do these rules allow a Hrestoli Man-of-All as a viable PC that is at least moderately magically capable? 
• is a Rokari zzaburi at least as viable a PC as a Lhankor Mhy sage, and at least as interesting to play?

I'm aware that making a viable PC can be more than just rules, or many rules may be specific to sects (I certainly hope so for the Loskalmi), or not just part of the sorcery rules (what a heroquesting sorcerer can do, for example) and some dissatisfaction with the sorcery rules might be because they are undeveloped - I hope so. Certainly the current sorcery in RQG is like Rune Magic was prior to Cults of Prax this (when there was only a single cult useful for most PCs), bones without enough flesh. 

[davecake]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ancestor worship is big deal among the nobility. Illustrious ancestors are worshiped, and are a source of magic. These ancestor cults often have a zzaburi who performs the rites, but needs to have the nobles present and involved (since in most cases, they are the ones with the blood connection). Think something like Daka Fal, where folk are worshiping the state founder (Jonat Big Bear, Gerlant Flamesword, Talor the Laughing Warrior, etc.). The Rokari dislike this try to restrict this, but given that some of this is by their own protectors and guardians, exceptions are made.

That makes a lot of sense - and the idea of Ancestor Worship among the Malkioni goes all the way back to Cults of Prax (which talks about the First Age Seshnegi going crazy with it). I presume they have learnt to do so by sorcerous means, or at least certainly without involving any shamans (for sanctioned official rites at least). 

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Among the Workers, there are lots of little cults, minor spirits, you name it. Most of this is just spirit magic.

Is limited sorcery against caste rules, or just inadvisable and unusual? Eg are the secret techniques of worker caste guildmasters going to be sorcerous or theist (or a bit of each, depending)?

[davecake]

The Irensavalists certainly do regard the material world as corrupt. Their two favourite schools of sorcery are:

• The Furlandan school, which can be seen as about how to stop the worst corruption of the material world from corrupting you, from basic hygiene to spiritual hygiene through to demon banishing
• The Zendamalthan, which teaches that the best magic is based on pure mathematical and magical principles not material properties

I think they treat most of the elemental and form rune based sorcery with a sort of sniffy disdain at best. They may have experts, but they are just not as well regarded as serious thinkers.

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was about to say, Irensavalism pretty much sees the material world as corrupt already, but it's not cartoonishly puritan, being circumscribed by the fact that, you know, people need to eat and breathe and poop, however much the Men-Of-All might dislike that dirty Makan and this gross dirt-prison he made for all the perfect and eternal Runes of the Invisible God.

The Furlandan school is happy to give you detailed instructions on how to eat and breathe and poop in order to minimise corruption, and one of the core texts of New Hrestolism, Against Demons, is in large part a hygiene manual, and I'm sure they all taught the important parts in Gods Day school. Including not just how to keep disease and passion demons away through clean living, but also going to the gym regularly,  a regular sauna, the secrets of a good (and pure) marriage, and how to atone when you commit wicked deeds. They aren't ascetics or puritans at all - they can be cheerily sensual, especially when it comes to food and sex - but they are very concerned with hygiene and have strong opinions on how to live right. They do think intellectual pleasures are better than sensual ones, but that doesn't mean they should be practiced exclusively - if one must eat, or exercise, or procreate, may as well enjoy it. 

They appear a bit more ascetic than the Rokari though - partly the hygiene obsession, and partly because the Rokari don't care as much about encouraging the intellectual life of the bulk of the population, for a warrior or worker has no business learning zzaburi business. 

Obscure Malkionism detail - the stories of Malkion listed as being in the Abiding Book in RM includes 'Malkion blesses the relish' which as first glance seems a ridiculously trivial detail (Malkion says try the veal!) but it's got a serious spiritual point - Malkion sees no point in ascetism for its own sake, it is OK to simply enjoy things and create things just to make a more pleasant life. Similarly, Malkion praises the beautiful dancer - he has no problem with them devoting time and effort just to entertain. 

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, davecake said:

And you are presumably extending the current rules in some ways (at least, that was certainly the intent stated in HQG), so if you think you are on the right track you may wish to take the dissatisfaction of others as a signal that sharing some extensions to the rules with the player base sooner rather than later would be welcomed.

But as your stated design intention seemed to be to make zzaburi unattractive as a player character option, and lots of people are probably interested in playing them, it is certainly possible that you may think the rules work just other fine and other people will still be very disappointed.

And tastes differ - I'm probably unlikely to be very fond of any rules that make long Duration spells the most effective option for sorcerers, as I personally dislike rules that implicitly encourage spreadsheets and schedules and optimising project management as a core play style. YMMV. 

Personally, two good sort of 'touchstone' questions for me are:

• do these rules allow a Hrestoli Man-of-All as a viable PC that is at least moderately magically capable? 
• is a Rokari zzaburi at least as viable a PC as a Lhankor Mhy sage, and at least as interesting to play?

I'm aware that making a viable PC can be more than just rules, or many rules may be specific to sects (I certainly hope so for the Loskalmi), or not just part of the sorcery rules (what a heroquesting sorcerer can do, for example) and some dissatisfaction with the sorcery rules might be because they are undeveloped - I hope so. Certainly the current sorcery in RQG is like Rune Magic was prior to Cults of Prax this (when there was only a single cult useful for most PCs), bones without enough flesh. 

David - I am perfectly aware that you want to play zzaburi in your way, even if that is not how we view them functioning in Malkioni society. A mostly-Malkioni campaign is likely going to be entirely different from a game set in Dragon Pass, the Holy Country, Prax, or Peloria. Wizards act primarily in support of the other castes (usually by casting long-duration spells on others), or are casting long ceremonial magics (so that they can increase their chance of success). Is that "as viable a PC as a Lhankor Mhy sage"? That depends on the campaign. Certainly a 21 year old zzaburi is going to be pretty unskilled.

A Man-of-All is going to juggle trying to administer, protect, and learn - as magicians, they are going to likely be inferior to their Rokari counterparts; as soldiers, they are likely going to be inferior as well (at least initially). They are meritocratic dilettantes - likely identified at a likely Guardians at a young age, and then those with the most potential are trained to be Men-of-All (hopefully they pass their exams). I think a Man-of-All in training would be a wonderful character - a Platonic Guardian trying to protect and defend the community, while learning philosophy and sorcery. But initially, they aren't great sorcerers. And they don't need to be - the Loskalmi believe their strength is their rational social organization which promotes justice, virtue, and enlightened administration. With the conflict with the Kingdom of War, and the initial sharp defeats, the Loskalmi must quest for weapons and magic to use against their foes. New Men-of-All are raised based on fighting prowess more than spiritual development. Who knows - maybe things even get desperate enough for the Wizards and Lords to make offerings and sacrifices to the Gods of War and Death, in order to fight the avatar of War and Death?

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Is limited sorcery against caste rules, or just inadvisable and unusual? Eg are the secret techniques of worker caste guildmasters going to be sorcerous or theist (or a bit of each, depending)?

It's a time and learning thing. Teaching a Worker sorcery is stupid. First you need to teach them literacy, then elements of philosophy, etc. But you need a labourer, a farm-hand, a crafter - not a wizard. 

Alternatively you could teach them "self-contained" spells that idiosyncratically use the Runes and Techniques in ways that do not help in understanding. Sure that exists, but it is beneath notice as we cannot build off them - and thus the time spent to learn them is "lost". Dormal's Open Seas rite is one of these. But there are plenty of others out there, I am sure. 

Much better to just ask your local zzaburi to bless whatever needs blessing or work whatever magic is needed. Rely on specialists!

[Sir_Godspeed]

What about Brithini non-Zzaburi? I always had the impression that these guys had some caste-specific sorcery. For example the two Dronars who live in Junora (iirc.)

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

maybe things even get desperate enough for the Wizards and Lords to make offerings and sacrifices to the Gods of War and Death, in order to fight the avatar of War and Death?

It's how the light gets in.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Sort of. New Hrestolism is a sect of Irsensavalism (like the original Carmanians, too), which sees the Creator as a corrupt demiurge. This, to the best of my knowledge never changed. They were persecuted by the God Learners/Makanists for their beliefs, If I've understood it correctly. They were never a part of the God Learner belief complex, and so never needed to clarify their distance.

Syranthir and his lot had fought the usurper Arimadalla who had taken over Loskalmi (or Akemite, I have seen no details beyond the Guide or Middle Sea Empire) kingdom, and fought a long retreat with the forces he could gather. The Carmanians encountered Idovanus and found him to be an emanation of Irensavel, and Ganesatarus as a good approximation of what they accused Makan of.

The foundations for Irensavalism are apparently laid by the writings of Tomaris, a Fronelan disciple of Hrestol during the time when he unified it into a kingdom - I think after his spell as Vadeli Judge, which probably came to pass after he had to flee Brithos with his Brithini wife following the unpleasantness with the successor of Talar Gresat Hoalarsson (who had been slain on the steps to the altar for his own wedding by Faralz.

The three approaches to be the perfect Man-of-all are mentioned briefly in Missing Lands, the first in Seshneg ending with his exile to Brithos, the second in Fronela creating the Malkioni kingdom there, and a third attempt still in Fronela, cut short by his capture by Brithini from Akem.

I think there are differences in the doctrines of the Seshnegi Hrestoli and the Fronelan ones who learned directly from Hrestol, and neither were satisfactory for Hrestol himself. While there will be some exchange between Fronela and Seshnela, Arolanit and Erontree prevented a full unification.

 

I think that Hrestol himself only ever was exposed to his ancestor, Malkion. He received his first revelations in meditation, and his second and third ones probably too. He then would act on these revelations, applying them to the problem of the Malkioni he lived with, testing them and leaving behind changed societies. (In Brithos, he acted as a catalyst to unleash latent conflicts, and his term as Vadeli Judge may have left those folk changed, too.)

The term Makan for the Invisible God probably was in use after the Gbaji Wars, at first in Jrustela and Seshnela. The Abiding Book spread that form of Hrestolism to all Malkioni who would accept it, including converts in Ralios and Maniria. I am not sure whether Syranthir and his bunch ever embraced it, but post Adalla-dynasty Loskalm certainly adhered to the Abiding Book as its scripture, with its references to Makan.

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Rokarism is more of an internal reaction within Makanism. Once the God Learners went very, very badly, there was a need to establish a new order, a new worldview that could explain all the bad fortune, and point out the scapegoats. Rokarism did that. They purged the Abiding Book into the Sharp Abiding Book, and they severely curtailed God Learner practices by outlawing or limiting their more extreme practices. 

Interestingly, the "Sharp Abiding" grimoire was the basis for the Order of New Order (Pilif the Magus) and the basis for Malkioneranism. Like the Sharp Abiding Book, this is a redaction by humans on the manifested word of God.

 

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

With this in mind, their two attitudes to Otherworld exploration makes sense. 

The Rokari live within sight of the afterglow of the Red Ruins. Anything leading to magical excesses like that needs to be avoided.

 

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I also believe that the old Hrestolism had its own tradition of Heroquesting, but @Joerg knows more about this than me (by a *significant* margin, Malkionism makes my head hurt.), which in case that's true, they could draw upon their own notions of it, and so avoid the God Learner stigma associated with the concept in Rokarism.

These aren't my original thoughts, I'm mostly mirroring what I remember of Nick Brooke's theories from 25 years ago based on glimpses of Greg's western stories like Hrestol's Saga:

The first thing Hrestol did as a Man-of-all was to fight a battle against the Pendali and win. The second thing was to go on a quest to slay Ifttala, the ancestress of the Pendali and their link to the land goddess. Ritual preparation, a ride into the wild, meeting quest guardians and gaining support or overcoming obstacles, until he had left the mortal realm and was walking among the gods. There he applied his sword to the task...

Afterwards, Hrestol was released from the Underworld at his father's intercession, another quest to the Great Temple of Seshna Likita. Froalar succeeded, fathered Ylream and Nebrola, and got Hrestol released, who afterwards went into Exile in Brithos.

Arriving there in flagrant caste transgression, he slew several of his would-be captors. In the end he was allowed to remain if he restrained himself to his birth caste of Talar.

Upon his arrival in Fronela, he seems to have built up his participation in the four castes again, and somehow quested to establish a united Malkioni kingdom in Fronela. Only which one? Seliset, the place where Tomaris conserved his geometrical wisdom, lies in Tawars, almost in what was Akem in the second century, but otherwise part of the Enjoreli lands. But Nenanduft might have been somewhat bigger under Hrestol or his successor.

I wonder whether Hrestol did some quest against the Enjoreli, too. If so, he probably refrained from slaying another daughter o the land goddess...

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is my interpretation, I could be wrong.

This could be written in the board header...

[Nick Brooke]

“Glimpses”? ITYM “careful parsing.”

Greg shared his early Mss. with me. I used whatever I could.

[Gallowglass]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

A Man-of-All is going to juggle trying to administer, protect, and learn - as magicians, they are going to likely be inferior to their Rokari counterparts; as soldiers, they are likely going to be inferior as well (at least initially). They are meritocratic dilettantes - likely identified at a likely Guardians at a young age, and then those with the most potential are trained to be Men-of-All (hopefully they pass their exams). I think a Man-of-All in training would be a wonderful character - a Platonic Guardian trying to protect and defend the community, while learning philosophy and sorcery. But initially, they aren't great sorcerers. And they don't need to be - the Loskalmi believe their strength is their rational social organization which promotes justice, virtue, and enlightened administration. With the conflict with the Kingdom of War, and the initial sharp defeats, the Loskalmi must quest for weapons and magic to use against their foes. New Men-of-All are raised based on fighting prowess more than spiritual development. Who knows - maybe things even get desperate enough for the Wizards and Lords to make offerings and sacrifices to the Gods of War and Death, in order to fight the avatar of War and Death?

This makes it sound like Men-of-All are exclusive sorcery users, and same for everyone above them on the meritocracy ladder. At least at the beginning of the war. Is this actually the case? I can definitely see Rune cults being popular among Workers, and those people in Loskalm who don't quite "fit in," like the former Hsunchen in the north and east. But sorcery seems like the magic of choice for the ruling castes. 

 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

These aren't my original thoughts, I'm mostly mirroring what I remember of Nick Brooke's theories from 25 years ago based on glimpses of Greg's western stories like Hrestol's Saga:

 

I keep seeing references to Hrestol's Saga, but I don't actually know what it is or how it fits into the Gloranthan canon. Is it available for consumption anywhere?

[Sir_Godspeed]

26 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

I keep seeing references to Hrestol's Saga, but I don't actually know what it is or how it fits into the Gloranthan canon. Is it available for consumption anywhere?

Unfortunately for us plebs, it's not publically available. I believe it was handed out/shown at some con or other, though I know purely of it second-hand through Joerg and possibly some others here.

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Unfortunately for us plebs, it's not publically available. I believe it was handed out/shown at some con or other, though I know purely of it second-hand through Joerg and possibly some others here.

(I owe a message on Hrestolsaga to a fellow who slammed Wall Street. Travel got in the way.)

It is one of Greg's early contacts with Glorantha, he dates it to '67 but close textual analysis would reward closer scrutiny. The world is very different a decade before Prax, Dragon Pass or anything like a Lunar Empire. It is very archaic and officially not even fit for public consumption, much less anything like essential or useful to conventional work in our hobby. It's not a hidden gold mine of deep lore. It's fairly short. The core narrative is barely 70 pages typed and a lot of those pages are mostly blank.

But it does give us one of the purest looks at Dawn Age Seshnela in utero . . . while the view of that time and place has changed, the maturing plant retains the smell of the seeds. It's the story of Hrestol at the beginning of history when everything was new. His friend Faralz plays a key role in a 50-page extension that often travels with it, a kind of sequel where they run amok on a "Brithos" that no longer resembles the island we know. Nobody is any worse off for not having it. When you need to have it, it tends to find you.

When you need to have it, it's a generative experience.

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

Much better to just ask your local zzaburi to bless whatever needs blessing or work whatever magic is needed. Rely on specialists!

True most of the time. But I was wondering if other castes not using sorcery was a hard rule , or a pragmatic choice, and I guess it’s a pragmatic choice. Which means extremely little sorcery for workers and soldiers, but you are going to get Talar dilettantes. 

And there are imaginable sorcery for other castes even. I can’t see your average farmer learning any, but, say, someone who becomes a wealthy guild master at age 40 gradually learning some sorcery associated with their craft over the next 30 years doesn’t seem unreasonable.

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

He received his first revelations in meditation, and his second and third ones probably too

I tend to think that for creating new magical techniques, there has to be magical validation and exercise of the new powers. But that is often done on the Essence plane, and looks a lot like meditation accompanied by a bit of external ritual. 
There is a lot of irl ritual that takes a similar approach. 

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

True most of the time. But I was wondering if other castes not using sorcery was a hard rule , or a pragmatic choice, and I guess it’s a pragmatic choice. Which means extremely little sorcery for workers and soldiers, but you are going to get Talar dilettantes. 

I am not aware of any formal ban on sorcery (spirit magic is officially permitted in some revisions of the covenant) but the question is who in the blue caste will teach and what they're willing to get out there, so it boils back down to pragmatism. 

Talars may think they're getting a functional course in miracles from a hypothetical indigent teacher but caste-compliant sorcerers probably emphasize how hard it is, how smart you need to be and how much more delightful life would be if you just had a well-compensated sorcerer on staff to do the heavy lifting for you. The idea of a Tanisorian noble who fancied himself a wizard is an interesting plot device, but I suspect they wouldn't be encouraged. LePlain finds strict caste rules extraordinarily useful. Let the rich kids party while the rest of us get on with our work. 

The castle coast is of course a place where pragmatic choices can feed unusual scenarios. And in Safelster it all depends on who you talk to. Get a defrocked sorcerer with the right heretical bent what he (she?) wants and maybe you get deputized into that version of the caste. MGF.

[Eff]

You could, if you were so inclined, recast Hrestolism versus non-Hrestolism as being an extended philosophical debate about whether empirical evidence or reasoning is more important in the development of a coherent philosophy. Of course, pragmatism would suggest that you not go full New Hrestol Idealism and require all the zzaburi to first have worked with their hands and fought with them too before they get around to the study of the laws of the Creator...

[Sir_Godspeed]

46 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I am not aware of any formal ban on sorcery (spirit magic is officially permitted in some revisions of the covenant) but the question is who in the blue caste will teach and what they're willing to get out there, so it boils back down to pragmatism. 

 

Sorcery's been around long enough for secrets to have permeated out of the Zzaburite caste. An engineer's guild (or whatever's the Malkioni equivalent, if any) might have some very specific construction sorcery passed down through the ages, barely understood, but aped effectively enough for it to work. 

Dunno, that just seems more interesting to me that the alternative. I am not suggesting Malkioni engineers going around summoning catapults or raising castles overnight though.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Sorcery's been around long enough for secrets to have permeated out of the Zzaburite caste. An engineer's guild (or whatever's the Malkioni equivalent, if any) might have some very specific construction sorcery passed down through the ages, barely understood, but aped effectively enough for it to work. 

Dunno, that just seems more interesting to me that the alternative. I am not suggesting Malkioni engineers going around summoning catapults or raising castles overnight though.

I think this is one of the key reasons why people venerate Ascended Masters. While they can't grant you magic directly, they can teach you pre-packaged spells that are the equivalents of the lesser spirit magic and Rune magic other people practice (this is where talars on horseback with flaming swords or ghastly giggling come from, IMO/IMG) and these can be used by you relatively freely and without violating caste restrictions necessarily (maybe if you're Brithini, but Brithini are all immortal and every dronar could conceivably be a full sorcerer by now). 

Obviously, the greater your logical connection to the Ascended Master the easier it is to commune with them for those lessons in practical magic. (One of the hidden secrets is that thanks to women's slightly greater degree of inter-caste mobility historically, technically anyone can claim descent from Talar, Zzabur, Horal, and Dronar if they need to...) 

The Rokari are definitely suspicious of this, but not so much as to actually crack down on it compared to the zzaburi gently steering the talars towards ancestor worship.