What's Happening in Fronela after 1621?

[davecake]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

There's also some unpublished stuff that may or may not be relevant now. In Fronela a Chaotic Miasma, one of the Tentacles of Urcheth appears and is spread or supported by Selkorze, Lord Death Riding (AKA lord Death a Horse). 

It sounds like there was quite a bit of unpublished stuff concerning Fronela. 

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Loskalmi are now built up on a war footing and now become the aggressors.

That might be pushing it a little, it is be on more of a war footing than the Kingdom of War, who more less exist to do nothing else. 

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Urcheth is a new Chaos god that appears early in the Hero Wars. Its many organs are new chaos outbursts and manifestations across Genertela.

First I'd heard of it, love to know more. 

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

That does sound more or less like people are calling him a God Learner because he has a plan to act like a God Learner, yes. 

God Learnerism was far more than just heroquesting and taking stuff.  Changing the Other Side being a primary one.

 

18 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes. Is he talking about venturing in to myths of his home culture and following the paths of previous culture heroes? Or is he intent on looting the myths of other cultures for quick magic power. The latter is rather implied. 

Even if he is looting the myths of other cultures, that does not make his actions morally suspect.  The myths are a description of the Other Side, they are not sancosanct.  For example, Arkat used the Talastaring myths to make the Thunder Mountain Leap having never set foot in Talastar.  The Lunars made good use of Pelorian mythology despite having initially been alien to it.  Belintar was a complete stranger and so on.

 

18 hours ago, davecake said:

It is far enough that it is not that much harder for either to reach there. The Kingdom of War is not preventing anyone from Loskalm from getting to Timms. 

So the Loskalmi are going to march through Jonatela, are they?

18 hours ago, davecake said:

All it says really in the Stelae is that the Kingof the West has "had rebelled against the gods and oppressed the Arrolian Properties." The Arrolian properties are very close to Timms. And rebelled against the gods could mean lots of things.

So the King of the West oppresses the Arrolians but TakenEgi sends the souls of his armies to the void and collects tribute from Sog City, the Rathori and the Arrolians?  Who is more oppressive here?

 

18 hours ago, davecake said:

The pictoglyphs don't seem to have much mention of it at all - their commentary on goings on in the West seem mostly concerning Seshnela. 

Glyph 15 - A  Man carrying a sword, a
woodsman’s axe, and casting
sorcery couples with the Snake
Goddess and receives the Serpent
Crown from three kingdoms.
Stone Men guard the scene

The Man is a Hrestoli and the Three Kingdoms include Seshnela.  One of the three wears an extremely tall hat indicating a Zzaburi which matches with Ethilrist's description of him as the Great Talar of the West with Brithini zzaburi at his command.   The only other major Kingdom around is Loskalm.

 

18 hours ago, davecake said:

Not that it;s a theory I'm committed to, its just a suggestion. But it seems plausible enough at this point.

The trouble is it rests upon a lot of assumptions that don't seem well founded.  The Loskalmi even have special rites to stop them from being God Learners.

18 hours ago, davecake said:

And if the Loskalmi aren't messing with God Learning or Chaos or something, we don't really have a theory how they survive. 

The unity of three kingdoms isn't enough?  

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

It sounds like there was quite a bit of unpublished stuff concerning Fronela.

Actually no. Greg did map out some of the events in the Hero Wars, but not in any great detail. I think there's another sentence on Fronela and that's it.

20 hours ago, davecake said:

That might be pushing it a little, it is be on more of a war footing than the Kingdom of War, who more less exist to do nothing else. 

I don't think I was clear, after defeating the KoW, they are on such a war footing they can't stop. They become what they fought. 

20 hours ago, davecake said:

First I'd heard of it, love to know more. 

There's really not much more. The Hero Wars is very empty and ready to be filled with new writing. Greg mapped out some concepts. New ideas were to fill the void - throw out your old ideas. The Hero Wars is not about recycling old stuff and reusing it. Glorantha is big enough for completely new stuff that Greg didn't even know about. That's why we know nothing about Urcheth, just some names and concepts. There must be a few people who know about the Tavim Twist out out there.

[davecake]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

The myths are a description of the Other Side, they are not sancosanct.  For example, Arkat used the Talastaring myths to make the Thunder Mountain Leap having never set foot in Talastar. 

Except the quote isn’t ‘enter the god time and use others myths’, it’s ‘rob its denizens’. Could you explain how robbery isn’t morally suspect? 

[davecake]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

So the King of the West oppresses the Arrolians but TakenEgi sends the souls of his armies to the void and collects tribute from Sog City, the Rathori and the Arrolians?  Who is more oppressive here?

It’s not a corruption contest. We already know the Lunars use Chaos monstrosities at need. The story is in part about the tragic fall of the Loskalmi from a people who imagine themselves wise and pure and perfect beyond all others to yet another morally compromised corrupted polity - whether they fall exactly as far, or in exactly the same way, is hardly the point. 

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

e Man is a Hrestoli and the Three Kingdoms include Seshnela.  One of the three wears an extremely tall hat indicating a Zzaburi which matches with Ethilrist's description of him as the Great Talar of the West with Brithini zzaburi at his command.   The only other major Kingdom around is Loskalm.

That is certainly one possible explanation. Certainly not the only. Not even the only one in this thread. 

 

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Loskalmi even have special rites to stop them from being God Learners.

I think that is a decidedly idiosyncratic interpretation of the medispection concept. I think it’s designed to prevent them repeating moral flaws of the God Learners - the whole point of the Loskalmi tragedy is that they will believe they are totally morally correct in all they do, and will repeat some of the disasters of their past enemies based on a different set of moral flaws. 

[Joerg]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

The Ban wasn't that long ago. IMO the Loskalmi Empire not only sees itself as ideal compared to its neighbours, its ignorance about them is huge, and in many cases their knowledge is just a list of errors, historical grievances, and deviations from the ideal. Its xenophobic and arrogant at a deep level due to its combination of ideology and history of isolation.

I don't exactly think that the Loskalmi are xenophobic. It is just that they don't like certain neighbors, but that's hardly different from how European countries used to think of their neighbors. The White Bear Empire was bad, because it invaded Loskalm. The Orlanthi to the south are bad, because they may come raiding. The Yggites used to raid the coasts, so occupying their main islands is only sensible. Sog City is a den of ignominous magics and behavior, which makes it a fun place to visit. The Kingdom of War is obviously bad. Junora is a recently reunited part of their culture... think eastern Germany as viewed by western Germans.

Of the sailors coming to Loskalm, Quinpolic sailors should be quite welcome, while Vadeli presumably are less well regarded. Much shipping will be on Loskalmi vessels going down to the Castle Coast and the Quinpolic ports, too, and up to Ygg's Isles.

It doesn't look like the Waertagi will make a major detour to Loskalm, although Sog City might be on their itinerary, depending on what they find at Old Trade.

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

In some ways sorcerously weak compared to eg the Rokari, they are not able to rely as much on a deep knowledge of sorcery and broad expertise and organisation - many of the Hrestoli sorcerers begin seriously studying sorcery only in middle age, or at least well into adulthood, compared to the Rokari zzaburi who begin at age 6 and are solely dedicated to it.

Unless the Rokari have excellent soothsayers, selecting people for a career at 6 years will result in a significant number of duds and miss some of the later bloomers. I do think that there are Loskalmi who are channeled into a sorcerous career while even just training for their Man-of-all qualifications, still undergoing some of the martial training, but possibly for one of the branches assisting the magicians.

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

So the Hrestoli approach to sorcerous warfare is going to be very different. The Rokari are conservative and organised - I suspect many of their sorcerous workings are huge rituals that are slowly worked on, or prepared for, over long periods of time, and discussed with the Talars at many points. The Hrestoli must leverage their other strengths - I suspect more reckless, relying on magic techniques other than pure sorcery on occasion (a lot of alchemy I think), and particularly heroquest type workings that rely on the their men of all to achieve magical ends by dint of personal heroism and their additional capabilities beyond sorcery.

I agree on reckless, as Hrestoli adventurism was blamed for some of the bads of the Middle Sea Empire. In hindsight, some of the conquests may have been regarded as the equivalent of the occupation of Afghanistan, whether by the soviets or by the Bush alliance, and that's nothing to be blamed on the mages.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

They try to build heroes.

That's the side order for the classic Man-of-all (not so much the lesser Loskalmi type, IMO). A Grand Knight is the equal of a Runelord.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

And a potential problem with that approach is that the personal authority and power of a Grand Wizard Knight is hard to challenge - if one of them goes way off the deep end and decides to veer into forbidden sorcery to win a battle that seems otherwise doomed, it is hard for anyone else to do anything about it.

The Loskalmi model is hierarchical and peer-reviewed, though.

Study of forbidden sorcery always is a problem. To counter a spell, you need to know its making. There is rather little information on lifting spells, though, whether in HQG or RQG. In both, we have the six techniques and the array of core runes which are invoked to create a spell. Knowledge of the Tapping technique is implied in all other techniques, and Tapping is one of the Malkioni problematic disciplines. The study of Underworld magic or even Chaos magic is another problematic use of sorcery, whereas rains of fire, massive floodings or devastating earth movements are perfectly within the acceptable range of sorcerous activities.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

And their Men of All, especially those that have risen to power mostly within the Ban or within central Loskalm,  have been told how correct they are their entire lives, and have never faced a serious threat, must surely be very prone to arrogance and hubris

To be fair, this self-righteousness is inherent in all cultures. Not having faced a serious threat is indeed a rare luxury, but with the Ban lifting, the Cold War dread has returned to Loskalm. By 1625, the Thaw has been around for 42 years, and for a dozen years the Kingdom of War has been known to be active.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

.So while I am sure the KoW embraces Chaos somewhat ( I see their hundred gods of war as including Than headhunters, Vampire led ghoul bands, Cacodemon bushwackers, etc.), the idea that it is a faction within the Loskalmi that resorts to reviving Arinsors Chaos Sorcery seems more and more likely.

There are always going to be sorcerers drawn to the legendary powers of ancien great evil adversaries. The problem with Arinsor's sorcery is that it doesn't have complete or accessible grimoires or similar sources from which to learn these darkest rites.

The Kingdom of War sometimes reminds me of the Mad Max adversaries. Yes, there will be outright chaotics among them. But then, they will include Storm Bull berserks, all of the beast warrior societies that the Malkioni have ever known, and their Hsunchen counterparts still feared from the White Bear Empire, and weird other ones. Riverjoin is likely to add a bunch of Lunar baddies to the mix and probably up the Chaos count significantly.

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 AM, davecake said:

Even if they do not, Sir Meriatram seems headed straight into God Learner territory ("He has learned of several secret ways to enter into the God Time and rob its denizens of magic and artifacts to aid his war.")

Not really. Meriatan is walking Hrestol's path, and that of many a heroquester elsewhere. Eringulf Vanak-Spear for instance, or Siglolf Cloudcrusher are typical examples of heroquesters (becoming heroes) returning with a magical weapon raided from the hero planes. His takings are no worse than Argrath's.

It isn't clear that Meriatan uses brute force entries into the hero planes like the Jrusteli and Umathelan God Learner monks apparently did - it is way more likely that he does take the classical approach of the solitary quester, perhaps with a faithful servant at his side, but armed with Joy, maxed out magical resources that render him pretty untouchable by ordinary quest opponents. It isn't his fault that there hasn't been the like of his questing that far west in Fronela for a while, with the White Bear-wearing slayer of the Red Emperor a notable exception.

In fact, the Loskalmi have all reason to be grateful to Harrek - his conquest of the White Bear God has removed one significant ancient foe from their roster. And while the Kingdom of War is another, equally dramatic foe, the stuff beyond the Gate of Banir is independent from that (yet), and the Dilis chaos swamp is another major worrisome danger.

 

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Its kind of literally the opposite of Arkatism - Arkat (post-Gbaji war at least) has been associated with respect for heroquesting.

I don't see evidence for Meriatam to go in there taking those myths apart. Hrestol quested with respect, too, even respect for his foe, the daughter of Seshna that he murdered.

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Remember the Arkat cult and the God Learners were bitter enemies. 

Ho hum. Different sort of God Learners.

When the Seshnegi and Jrusteli fought the Autarchy, they had not yet stolen their documentation on the Hero Planes, and the Malkioneranist God Learners qua re-arrangers of the myths had yet to develop from those stolen documentations.

The Autarchy was facing the original Abiding Book-inspired orthodox Malkioni sorcerers - even Pilif the Magus was based on this, although he chose to de-select those chapters that placed restrictions on his caste.

The God Learner way of using not their own myths to enter the Other Side but to work from within the myths of others without giving those the proper respect came almost a century later, as did the "proofs" of runic identity of some of those Srvuali emanations the pagans called deities.

 

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Eg from Arcane Lore

"Arkat's cult controlled heroquesting. They had rigorous entrance requirements and maintained strict rules and iron discipline. They demanded respect for the magics, and a tender care in treating with them. The cult policed the Hero Plane, seeking unwanted or obtrusive heroquesters and expelling them. They made many enemies that way, but maintained stability on the Hero Plane."

That does sound more or less like people are calling him a God Learner because he has a plan to act like a God Learner, yes. 

The Arkat cult polices the Hero Plane - their guardians are still in place, likely as weird family rites passed on in noble (post-Rokari re-definition) families (previously men-of-all) even in Tanisor, possibly unaware that those activities started out as Arkati rites.

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes. Is he talking about venturing in to myths of his home culture and following the paths of previous culture heroes? Or is he intent on looting the myths of other cultures for quick magic power. The latter is rather implied.

Is Meriatan facing the heroic resistance of other cults, overcoming them and taking their weapons? There is a subcult of Orlanth doing just that, the four elemental weapons. These treasures are the secrets and myths of other cultures. The main difference is that Meriatan lacks the cult structure these Orlanthi questers have, bringing his own Order of the Swallow and its resources instead. IMO Meriatan enters the Other Side and maxes out on his encounters with various guides and guardians, trading, gambling and indeed robbing the opposition, in weapons, magic, seduction or passion.

 

19 hours ago, davecake said:

It is far enough that it is not that much harder for either to reach there. The Kingdom of War is not preventing anyone from Loskalm from getting to Timms. 

If you make contact with the forces of the Kingdom of War, your journey stops there. If you are really tough, you might live to turn around. I don't think that anybody other than Harrek ever managed to push through the event horizon of the KoW. There is a chance that a new form of the Ban is following in the wake of their progress, as the land gets depopulated and devastated by their presence and advance.

 

19 hours ago, davecake said:

All it says really in the Stelae is that the Kingof the West has "had rebelled against the gods and oppressed the Arrolian Properties." The Arrolian properties are very close to Timms. And rebelled against the gods could mean lots of things.

It is far from clear who that King of the West is that Phargentes claims to have overcome. It could be Lord Death on a Horse. Congern would be the Bear King giving tribute.

The Arrolian territory of Riverjoin has been encircled and under siege of the King of War since 1621 or earlier.

Phargentes goes on to Sog City and washes his blade in the salt water of Ozur Bay. That indicates that he cut open the Janube route. By this time, most of Akem will have been overrun by the Kingdom of War, and the main force may well be engaged with Loskalm away from the river itself.

19 hours ago, davecake said:

The pictoglyphs don't seem to have much mention of it at all - their commentary on goings on in the West seem mostly concerning Seshnela. 

Ralios, rather. I suspect that the Man of All crowned with the Serpent Crown might be Aamor, the heir to Dangim, currently in exile just south of Nida. Certainly not a Rokari, and unlikely to be from the Castle Coast. And while the text suggests that he is one of the dupes helping the Waertagi to reclaim access to Brithos, he looks like the best candidate for the new King of the West, probably after a betrayal of Guilmarn by Waertagi and Brithini.

 

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Not that it;s a theory I'm committed to, its just a suggestion. But it seems plausible enough at this point. And if the Loskalmi aren't messing with God Learning or Chaos or something, we don't really have a theory how they survive.

We have little data to derive a timeline for Fronela, other than the 1642 visit of Phargentes which tells us that Jonatela and Sog City still exist. To me this means that the conflict between the Kingdom of War and Loskalm is still ongoing, with the Lunar breakthrough little but a nuisance to Lord Death on a Horse (as would be his demise). The advance into the east doesn't appear to be the main thrust of the wave front of the Kingdom of War. I would expect Junora to be the main battleground by this time, with the northern front somewhat literally bogged down in Gharkor.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Except the quote isn’t ‘enter the god time and use others myths’, it’s ‘rob its denizens’. Could you explain how robbery isn’t morally suspect? 

The Orlanthi rob their neighbours all the time.  Hence I really don't see the use of robbery as a moral failing.  Meriatan ows nothing to them - the denizens he will rob are not part of his community.  I've already mentioned Harrek in this thread - does extreme violence while relying others of their possessions  less morally suspect?  

So rather than short off one liners in a bid for gotcha games, could you please come up with more substantive suggestions?

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s not a corruption contest. We already know the Lunars use Chaos monstrosities at need.

So how do the Loskalmi oppress the Arrolians  in a way that makes the Red Emperor superior to them.  It can't be the collection of tribute because the Red Emperor does precisely that to places that have never acknowledged him before.  It's not the use of chaos.  So what is it?  

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The story is in part about the tragic fall of the Loskalmi from a people who imagine themselves wise and pure and perfect beyond all others to yet another morally compromised corrupted polity - whether they fall exactly as far, or in exactly the same way, is hardly the point. 

Except that there's little suggestion about Loskalm's tragic fall in the text.  .  All you are doing is focusing on a single sentence and creating an elaborate psychodrama from it.  There are other ways to create an intense narrative other then make Meriatan a moral bankrupt.

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

That is certainly one possible explanation. Certainly not the only. Not even the only one in this thread. 

Except that you spend all your time jumpijg on my suggestion. For no obvious point and very little gain.

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I think that is a decidedly idiosyncratic interpretation of the medispection concept. I think it’s designed to prevent them repeating moral flaws of the God Learners - the whole point of the Loskalmi tragedy is that they will believe they are totally morally correct in all they do, and will repeat some of the disasters of their past enemies based on a different set of moral flaws. 

And where and when is this Losklami tragedy narrative set out?

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think I was clear, after defeating the KoW, they are on such a war footing they can't stop. They become what they fought. 

Agree about this. Loskalm and the Kingdom of War are inverted reflections of each other (almost literally - the KoW is the result of Loskalm dumping any badness outside its borders), and the only way to defeat the KoW is probably to reintegrate a lot of that into Loskalmi society. 

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

Except the quote isn’t ‘enter the god time and use others myths’, it’s ‘rob its denizens’. Could you explain how robbery isn’t morally suspect? 

Is it morally suspect when the Red Cow heroquesters raid the giant's cattle?

It's one of the irregular verbs, isn't it? I raid, you plunder, he/she steals.

[metcalph]

I know it's often agreed with but I'm not really seeing the Kingdom of War being an inversion of Loskalm and vice versa.  May be the suggestion would be better expressed as Loskalm will end up like another Kingdom of War but I don't find that sustainable these days given the Guide's talk about the Great King of the West (The number one fact about him that Ethilrist thinks is noteworthy is that he has Brithini Sorcerors Guie p750)

The Kingdom of War has its own philosophy (Glorantha Sourcebook p180) which is to have "burst all bonds and broken magical walls"  It is a relentless drive that has freed them from the Ban and consumed their humanity in doing so.  Hence I think the Kingdom of War was the author of its own evil and not caused by anybody else.  Besides undiluted evils rarely make as interesting antagonists as more human ones (compare and contrast Ramsey Bolton, King Joffrey and the Night King with Cersei, the High Sparrow or Tywin Lannister).

I know the Gate of Banir is said to be in Timms but there is an apparent chaotic hellhole in Charrg (in the Argan Argar maps, the Bleak Land can be made out in the shaded portion) and it's where the local Uroxi were earning their bread and butter (Entekosiad p42).  This may be referred to in the Entekosiad as Burneledos p70.  That looks like a far more convincing place to summon chaos from.  The relevant sentence could be construed as suggesting that Arinsor's staff is to be found in Timms but that would have to be an extremely clunky reading.

My current thinking is that the struggle against the Kingdom of War is important not because it causes Loskalm to become Evil but that in order to defeat the Kingdom, the Loskalmi have to jettison some of their cherished ideals and struggle with the consequences.  Loskalm will be stricken by internal disunion as it strives to adapt to new threats.  The King becomes more poweerful but at the same time, the respect decreases and politcal instability including assassinations becomes commonplace.

 

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

46 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My current thinking is that the struggle against the Kingdom of War is important not because it causes Loskalm to become Evil but that in order to defeat the Kingdom, the Loskalmi have to jettison some of their cherished ideals and struggle with the consequences.

That's been my vague impression too, but I admit this is pretty much up for personal interpretation.

[Akhôrahil]

I'm assuming this is the source?

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/kow/

"The Kingdom of War is the “shadow” of Fronela/Loskalm. It is everything which they deny and fear."
[...] 
"Basically, during the Syndics Ban the Loskalmi and other isolated Fronelan peoples (generally) made their homelands better and better because they were a homogeneous people with no external enemies. In similar conditions on our earth nations might tend to internalize those conflicts, but in Glorantha the western sorcerers sort of shuttled it off to an invisible place that doesn’t exist.

That “place which didn’t exist” really did, of course. "

Edited May 3, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/kow/

"Basically, during the Syndics Ban the Loskalmi and other isolated Fronelan peoples (generally) made their homelands better and better because they were a homogeneous people with no external enemies.

It should be noted that the vast "homogeneous" area which emerged from the Ban as Loskalm had a significant amount of minorities inside its borders, like those musk ox people trapped in Loskalm, and plenty barbarians. That relief (Guide p. 202) showing Siglat and a male and female companion of his mostly in the nude fighting slightly more dressed opponents obviously played out during the Ban (with significant amounts of armor and padding worn by the Loskalmi).

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm assuming this is the source?

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/kow/
 

The trouble is I mentioned that several years later to Greg.  He called it an "amusing theory" and apparently forgot that he had ever written it.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

It should be noted that the vast "homogeneous" area which emerged from the Ban as Loskalm had a significant amount of minorities inside its borders, like those musk ox people trapped in Loskalm, and plenty barbarians. That relief (Guide p. 202) showing Siglat and a male and female companion of his mostly in the nude fighting slightly more dressed opponents obviously played out during the Ban (with significant amounts of armor and padding worn by the Loskalmi).

"Homogenous" probably means more like "no minority strong enough to pose a challenge".

That's what it tends to mean in the real world.

[metcalph]

From the Guide sidebar p202 (highlight mine)

Quote

Meriatan and his wizards will
impose their will upon the material world and
embrace methods forbidden since the demise
of the God Learners.

The highlighted passage suggests the Loskalmi have traditionally shunned with spells that affect the material world like Create Wall of Flame.  There will have been philosophical differences about where exactly the border lies but as a result of their struggle against the Kingdom of War, the Loskalmi have cast aside these inhibitions.  At first this would be minor stuff like weather control spells to hinder the passage of the troops of the Kingdom of War but it will soon involve the use of spells that smite enemy troops (and walls).

So far so good.  What they are doing is ordinary sorcery - something that other Malkioni wouldn't have a problem with (the other sects may have their own hangups about some kinds of sorcery but that's irrelevant right now).  What I'm interested is how it will change their philosophy and any fireworks that result.  

According to the Guide, the Loskalmi see the material world as a emanation of the corrupt Demiurge.  Spells that work on the material world are arguably participating in his work.  But if casting such spells becames morally virtuous, how would that impact on their relationship with the Invisible God?  Is the Demiurge redeemable?  Should energies be focused on a new Creation to replace the rrors of the old?  Or should material sorcerors be condemned as polluted souls who have taken one for the team?  I'm kinda interested in avoiding the Carmanian and God Learner solutions and instead focused on factionized philosophical schools.

 

[Pentallion]

Turning all God Learnery is still not turning all Chaotic.  Though it could obviously have unintended consequences that weaken the world and let chaos leak in.

 

[sufiazafran]

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on a full campaign setting around this topic. You know the war against war, the KoW and what happens in there, and I would really appreciate some feedback from you. I haven't read the conversation yet, so just tell me if I mention something that you already discussed.

For the moment I am playing the eastern part of the  campaign, centered in Riverjoin, Zoria, Barleygrove, and part of Rathorela. I am trying to stick to the official material as much as I can, adapting it from heroquest, old runequest and magazines, and writing my own stuff only to fill the blanks.

My idea is that the evil from the KoW is old and new. The idea is that a part of Gbaji (Ge) was hidden somewhere in Fronela since its defeat, and Ezdene made a pact with it before Snodal made his crazy thing with the God of the silver feet. So She took te GotSF body and made some nasty things, like reviving him with pure caos, turning him in the opposite of what he was, the Lord Death (I have some ideas about him, but nothing written yet, like that he is some kind of autarchy power, you know, a lord of isolation instead of communication/travelling).

 Obviously the trolls of the Black forest didn't stay idle while all this was happening, they receive part of a prophecy and with the help of a hsunchen shaman forge a nail from the bone of a god to destroy Ge once and for all. But, as the prophecy foretold, their champion faulters, and the final blow does not kill Ge, it just seals its power. Ezdene already knew smething like this could happen, so during the battle with Ge, she makes a parlay with the troll matriarchs: one of them will bear six children, all daughters of the pure uzuz race free of Gbajis curse, but they will all swear loyalty to her. One of the matriarchs accepts and the families start fighting each other, some unite with chaos, others fight until death, some flee to fight another day.

In the campaign the players have to find the third part of the troll's prophecy, fulfill a ritual of fertility in Zoria to save the city from the hordes of chaos, and maybe create a new goddess in Riverjoin in a crazy ritual devised by Varnaro and Ganestoro to save Riverjoin of disaster. After that, they have to go look for the two heroes that fought Ge before: Dertan, the noyaling shaman that helped forge the nail, and the great troll that was supposed to deliver the killing blow. And then, they must go under the place where the power of Ge was sealed, find the remnant of the god, and kill it. After that they can go after Ezdenia and try to stop her from raising another army, or help the trolls recover their clans and lands, and THEN. with their help, go after Ezdenia.

I thought of it as a campaign setting for two reasons, one is that, after much GtG reading,  it seems that the war against war is a confrontation that drags all of fronela into it, rather the fronelnas like or not. So I would like to write three campaigns, one for the south eastern regions, one for the west (centered in Loskalm) and one for the north. Each campaign would be for playing with different cultures, so the western one would be made to play with loskalm/junoran, the northern with uncoling/noyaling/other hsunchen, and the eastern with Zorites/Jonatings/arrolians. The final idea is to create a setting that allows players to play a variety of fronelan cultures starting with easy adventures and gradually introducing them to heroquesting, so if they like, they can pass to the heroquest system after completing one of the paths of the setting. 

The other reason is that I would like to write a campaign setting in the spirit of RQ settings like Griffin island, Los city of Eldarad or Snakepipe Hollow. So it's not enough with just the adventures, I am also adapting/writing the cities I am playing (for the moment I have Zoria, Riverjoin and Barleygrove, with cults, people and places of interest and some minderkind, zorite and hsunchen spells)   

Well, I think that's all, more or less, please ask me any questions and any comment will be appreciated, thank you very much.

[Gallowglass]

5 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

For the moment I am playing the eastern part of the  campaign, centered in Riverjoin, Zoria, Barleygrove, and part of Rathorela. I am trying to stick to the official material as much as I can, adapting it from heroquest, old runequest and magazines, and writing my own stuff only to fill the blanks.

 

Just today actually, I was reading through an article in Tradetalk #15 on Zoria, meant to be used in Hero Wars. There might be some good inspiration there, or material to use. Also, the Swedish edition of RQG will use Fronela as it's default setting, but I don't know any details beyond that (and I can't read Swedish). 

Your campaign sounds epic and very interesting. I like how you bring in the Uz, and also address the question of "what happened to all the Black Forest trolls?" There are still the Xemstown trolls waiting to be released from the Ban too. I'd be curious to know how you see them fitting into your larger narrative. 

5 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

I thought of it as a campaign setting for two reasons, one is that, after much GtG reading,  it seems that the war against war is a confrontation that drags all of fronela into it, rather the fronelnas like or not. So I would like to write three campaigns, one for the south eastern regions, one for the west (centered in Loskalm) and one for the north. Each campaign would be for playing with different cultures, so the western one would be made to play with loskalm/junoran, the northern with uncoling/noyaling/other hsunchen, and the eastern with Zorites/Jonatings/arrolians. The final idea is to create a setting that allows players to play a variety of fronelan cultures starting with easy adventures and gradually introducing them to heroquesting, so if they like, they can pass to the heroquest system after completing one of the paths of the setting. 

 

 The more I looked into Fronelan events of the Hero Wars, the more unclear it became how the Kingdom of War would continue to be involved. We know that Loskalm conquers or otherwise "oppresses" the Arrolian cities, prompting an invasion from Carmania, and later the Lunar Empire. I don't have my books with me so I can't check the dates for these events, but I believe they happen in the 1630's through early 1640's. There's pretty much no mention of the KoW doing anything in the Hero Wars period after it invades Junora and Loskalm. To me it almost seems like Loskalm drives them back to the Black Forest and contains them, or maybe even conquers them by the 1630's. How long do you think your campaign will last through the timeline? Will you use or ignore these future invasions?

The Hsunchen and Orlanthi of Fronela also don't seem to be opposed to the KoW in any big way. The Guide says that both of these regions send mercenaries to join the Warlords. If anything, they seem to hate Loskalm more than the Kingdom. Rather than the KoW dragging the entire region into conflict, it may just be a thing between them and Loskalm, and it may also be resolved pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things. By 1630 even? We don't know, there's a lot of missing information. Honestly it sounds like your ideas about making the Kingdom of War a bigger threat to everyone is more interesting than the current Hero Wars framework anyway. 

Other big threats that you might consider for your other campaigns are the Nameless Man, featured in the prophecy of Kyrmon's Scroll. The Uzhim of Valind's Glacier venturing south to eat stuff. The Aldryami of Rathorela might be attempting some re-seeding in the south. Fronela also seems to have a lot of doors to the Underworld lying around, and you never know when something might try to come through!  

Fronela is still one of my favorite parts of Glorantha, just for the diversity, weirdness, and great story hooks. I've now written campaign outlines taking place in Oranor, Sog City, Rathorela, and Loskalm. . Good luck with your campaign, and keep us posted about what happens! Also, I'd love to see some of the material you've written, hopefully you can get it published.

[g33k]

On 5/2/2019 at 2:14 AM, metcalph said:

...

Glyph 15 - A  Man carrying a sword, a
woodsman’s axe, and casting
sorcery 

...

Hrm...

It just suddenly struck me:  there are many, many possible symbols for "common labor."  Farming is likely the most ubiquitous such labor, so farming-tools would be apt (or a fishing-net where fishing replaces farming as most ubiquitous occupation).

 

But this symbol is -- rather specifically -- an anti-Aldryami symbol.  I mean, it isn't ONLY, it isn't ALWAYS, so anti-Aldryami... sometimes an axe IS just an axe.

But couldn't a less-fraught symbol of common-man labor have been chosen?  Specifically... wouldn't it have been chosen?

 

FWIW

 

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

Hrm...

It just suddenly struck me:  there are many, many possible symbols for "common labor."  Farming is likely the most ubiquitous such labor, so farming-tools would be apt (or a fishing-net where fishing replaces farming as most ubiquitous occupation).

The woodman's axe is a craftsman's tool quite often. Apart from lumberjacks out or straight planks or paper pulp raw material, you have carpenters and shipwrights who will visit the forests to harvest specific non-straight trees for their natural shape that fits into their current project best. Twisted trees make some excellent special parts.

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

But this symbol is -- rather specifically -- an anti-Aldryami symbol.  I mean, it isn't ONLY, it isn't ALWAYS, so anti-Aldryami... sometimes an axe IS just an axe.

But couldn't a less-fraught symbol of common-man labor have been chosen?  Specifically... wouldn't it have been chosen?

The axe is an aldryami weapon and tool, too. Even fire is a tool aldryami gardeners may use - both axe and fire in limited ways.

 

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

FWIW

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The axe is an aldryami weapon and tool, too.

 

[Gallowglass]

Something I've been thinking about lately is just how ridiculously little we know about the Kingdom of War. Mysteries are great and all, but someone setting a campaign in Fronela might have to actually interact with these people, so it would help to know more about who they are, even the basic rank-and-file soldiers. 

I was looking at the map in the Guide that has population figures. Their total civilian population is 320K, and there are 100K warriors. That is a huge army! Even Loskalm only fields about 60K soldiers. For the civilians, I would guess that a big chunk of that comes from the conquered cities and their surrounding villages. But what about this obscenely huge army? Did they all show up in the Cursed City when it appeared in 1612? If so, then who are they? Did they come from the Underworld? And if that's the case, are they actually human or demons? I could see some of them being recruited from conquered territory, but keep in mind that the Kingdom has only been expanding since 1612. 

It might be easier to explain if the KoW came into existence right after the Ban started, but reading the Guide it seems like the Cursed City appeared near it's end. With the former scenario, the warriors of the Kingdom would be descended from the various people who lived in or near the Black Forest: Noyalings, Hsunchen, trolls, and maybe some Janubian river folk. I could see how over the course of 100 years, the mysterious leaders of the Cursed City, like Lord Death, Ezdene, and probably some demons, molded these people into a culture of vicious, bloodthirsty warriors. By the time the Ban thaws, they have a massive army and a religion built around their own death gods. But looking at the map of the Syndic's Ban, that doesn't seem right. The area around the Cursed City is relatively small, and it seems unlikely that many Fronelans would have been "trapped" in the region where it appeared (or was "added" to Glorantha, whatever). 

I'm also wondering about the identities of these "100 Death Gods" that the KoW worships. Some of these are likely demons or Chaos entities that Ezdene introduced to the Kingdom's soldiers. Maybe some of the classic death gods are part of the pantheon too? It's unclear how much Chaos plays a role in the KoW's religion. If it's not central to their worship, then I don't see why they wouldn't also worship Humakt, Urox, Zorak Zoran, and Shargash/Vorthan. 

Finally, Sufiazafran's post made me wonder, what actually happened to all the Black Forest trolls? 

[scott-martin]

13 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

But what about this obscenely huge army?

Sandy spent a fair amount of time up there and was impressed with the notion that KOW is a kind of "controlled" wildfire where the entire community resource is on the expanding periphery as the army. Everything else is burned out to sustain that growth. The interior is apparently a weird but evocative Waste Land environment. Of course SGHV, usual disclaimers apply.