Dodging While Prone

[Tywyll]

Being prone/losing a leg allows parries at full value. What does it do to dodges?

Edited May 29, 2019 by Tywyll

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Being prone/losing a leg allows parries at full value. What does it do to dodges?

I go back to my "rule of common-sense" -- if a rule is unclear, make the assumption that seems most common-sensical.

I don't have the rulebook d/l'ed to this device, so I can't check the RAW; but in the absence of anything clear I'd probably put a x0.5 (1/2) penalty on the Dodge:  it's not that you cannot roll/scramble away... but you aren't nearly as nimble as when you're on your feet!

YGMV.

 

[Tywyll]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

I go back to my "rule of common-sense" -- if a rule is unclear, make the assumption that seems most common-sensical.

I don't have the rulebook d/l'ed to this device, so I can't check the RAW; but in the absence of anything clear I'd probably put a x0.5 (1/2) penalty on the Dodge:  it's not that you cannot roll/scramble away... but you aren't nearly as nimble as when you're on your feet!

YGMV.

 

Yeah, that's how I was doing it. I just wondered if I missed something in the rules about it.

Noe, how does the multidodge penalty work? Does the -20 happen before you half the total? Certainly that's how bonuses work when you split your skill.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Tywyll

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Yeah, that's how I was doing it. I just wondered if I missed something in the rules about it.

Noe, how does the multidodge penalty work? Does the -20 happen before you half the total? Certainly that's how bonuses work when you split your skill.

I am inclined to take the harsher stance, here.  Halve the skill, successive Dodge's at -20% per, taken from that halved skill.

Because if you are laying on the ground, surrounded by people wanting to hit you with readied weapons... you are about to get hit.

A lot.

Evenif you try to roll away.

Edited May 30, 2019 by g33k

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I am inclined to take the harsher stance, here.  Halve the skill, successive Dodge's at -20% per, taken from that halved skill.

Because if you are laying on the ground, surrounded by people wanting to hit you with readied weapons... you are about to get hit.

A lot.

Evenif you try to roll away.

I mean I don't disagree with you, but a similar argument could be made for bladesharp or other temp modifiers applying twice when you split your skill. Hitting twice with a super sharp sword should be better than hitting once with one. But it doesn't (apparently) work that way. That's my only pause.

[g33k]

17 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

I mean I don't disagree with you, but a similar argument could be made for bladesharp or other temp modifiers applying twice when you split your skill. Hitting twice with a super sharp sword should be better than hitting once with one. But it doesn't (apparently) work that way. That's my only pause.

Bladesharp isn't quite parallel, IMHO; and splitting for extra attacks is different from dodging-then-dodging-again-then-again-and-again...

I'd skill-bump before splitting (n.b. that may cross the 100% level and be the only reason you CAN skill-split!) but then I'd add the Bladesharp damage-bonus to every hit (as you say, every hit with that magically-sharp sword is extra-cuttingly-painful).

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'd skill-bump before splitting (n.b. that may cross the 100% level and be the only reason you CAN skill-split!)

Natural skill has to be over 100 to split, bonuses do not enable splitting.

[Psullie]

Your dodge is unaffected but the attacker has a +40% bonus is how its written.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Psullie said:

Your dodge is unaffected but the attacker has a +40% bonus is how its written.

This makes little sense from a real world perspective.

In the real world, dodging can be to left or right (roll or twist), but most often backwards (with some leeway movement). Rarely, up and down... and really good dodgers go to the side and forward (for advantage on their next attack).

If you're prone, you've just lost the most effective direction to go - backwards. The left and right are severely hampered as well. Up and down? I suppose you could somersault...

So, as a simulationist game, it's seriously lacking for this ruling.

 

Also, should you really get a +40% chance to hit? Only if the attack roll is more abstracted and includes movement outside of actual attacking (ie, feints, etc).

 

"Don't hit a man when he's down. Kick him - it's easier!"

[jps]

You mean no dodge at all? Seems a bit harsh.

[Kloster]

28 minutes ago, jps said:

You mean no dodge at all? Seems a bit harsh.

No, RAW means the dodge score is normal. The attacker has a bonus, and the defender has a normal score.

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

No, RAW means the dodge score is normal. The attacker has a bonus, and the defender has a normal score.

One could easily add a HR of hit location being rolled on a D10 by the prone individual making an abdomen shot  the highest one could reach from the ground. It makes sense, adds a small penalty (harder to get a one-hit kill) is easy to remember and this penalty exists for other similar purposes already ie. attacking from horseback where one adds 10 to a D10. I think this has been RAW in past and current incarnations of BRP games.

Cheers

[styopa]

On 5/29/2019 at 9:09 PM, g33k said:

I go back to my "rule of common-sense" -- if a rule is unclear, make the assumption that seems most common-sensical.

I don't have the rulebook d/l'ed to this device, so I can't check the RAW; but in the absence of anything clear I'd probably put a x0.5 (1/2) penalty on the Dodge:  it's not that you cannot roll/scramble away... but you aren't nearly as nimble as when you're on your feet!

YGMV.

 

We use the RQ3 rule that if you're prone you're -20% to attacks, and +20% to be attacked.

Getting up takes a full round - you can act again on your initiative in the following round.  If you are attacked while getting up, you can dodge/parry without penalty *but* if you do, that re-sets you as prone again.  Logic?  Watch any people in real fights...pretty much nobody tries to get up IN MELEE.  They try to skitter away and then get up.

We also generally rule that a dodge puts you randomly in one of 6 hexes (self plus 5 adjacent, ignoring the attacker's hex) but I've been sloppy about forcing that.  A dodge 1 success level better lets you pick from 2 rolls.  A dodge 2 levels better you can pick which of the 5 hexes you end in.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, jps said:

You mean no dodge at all? Seems a bit harsh.

If you're referring to my post - no. You can try to dodge, but at half.

[Shiningbrow]

Is it actually easier to hit something on the ground than standing up? With a long weapon? With fists?

Not having tried to recently, I can only hypothesize... And it's "no". Not per second.

The advantage comes from them being unable to move as freely, ie dodge.

Although, RQ tries to simulate "passive" dodging ( in generally moving around, footwork, etc... ), contrasted with active dodging, when the opponent apparently uses that instead of a parry. Like the old 'defense'. 

(Which sort of means a double-dip).

I'd still halve the dodge...

[gochie]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is it actually easier to hit something on the ground than standing up? With a long weapon? With fists?

Not having tried to recently, I can only hypothesize... And it's "no". Not per second.

The advantage comes from them being unable to move as freely, ie dodge.

Although, RQ tries to simulate "passive" dodging ( in generally moving around, footwork, etc... ), contrasted with active dodging, when the opponent apparently uses that instead of a parry. Like the old 'defense'. 

(Which sort of means a double-dip).

I'd still halve the dodge...

I would argue that it is at least easier for someone else (a second attacker) to hit a prone target than a standing, moving one. 

It also depends on how the prone person is positioned. If they're face-down and generally immobile, you won't miss his head. If they're on their back up-kicking you to keep you at bay, then yes it will be hard to hit them anywhere that isn't the legs.

Generally, I might be inclined to give other attackers (other than the one the defender is focused on) +40% to hit, and also halve the Dodge of the prone target vs all attackers. I would also halve the parry to be honest... Moving properly plays a rather huge part in parrying. 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, gochie said:

I would argue that it is at least easier for someone else (a second attacker) to hit a prone target than a standing, moving one. 

But... Why is it easier? Because of their location and position (on ground, facing??)

Or because they're unable to move freely? 

If the attack skill is an abstraction of the ability to hit a target that doesn't want to be hit in combat... Then I'm only not sure about a + to hit.

If it's merely ability to hit a non-moving target, then definitely no.

[gochie]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But... Why is it easier? Because of their location and position (on ground, facing??)

Or because they're unable to move freely? 

If the attack skill is an abstraction of the ability to hit a target that doesn't want to be hit in combat... Then I'm only not sure about a + to hit.

If it's merely ability to hit a non-moving target, then definitely no.

Both. Get an absolute noob with an axe and he/she will hit a log, probably right in the centre.

The only reason you don't have a nearly 100% chance to hit everything in the game, including standing opponents, is because they move, not because you can't hit a still object.

Giving +40% instead of an auto-hit is because of the squirming of the prone opponent which might cause you to miss slightly - even if he did not actually try to dodge or parry. Not giving a bonus to hit means (to me) that the opponent is moving/maneuvering normally as if standing with full mobility.

The halved dodge is because he can't move freely when actually attempting to move out of the way of a specific hit.

[Bill the barbarian]

27 minutes ago, gochie said:

The only reason you don't have a nearly 100% chance to hit everything in the game, including standing opponents, is because they move, not because you can't hit a still object.

 

I might go down to say a professional level rather than a mastery level. Say 75%... Maybe even journeyman level. of 50%. The rules as written give an awful lot of chance for a patient thinking individual to bring his score to above 100% Trust me, I have seen a lot of darwin award winning moments. Don't aim, don't think about what you are doing, get cocky... what could go wrong.

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

I'll bypass the parrying, because I think we're all pretty much in agreement (although the % might differ).

Hitting an unmoving target... Hitting is one thing... Hitting effectively, well, for a good damaging hit is a very different thing. Which is why professional loggers are significantly better and faster than us amateurs. 

Remember, when you do weapons training, you start with the basically of hitting static targets (like the wall) for ages to perfect the hit... Even the "masters" continue to do that for practice.