Shiningbrow

Firstly, I don't think all elementals are as obviously visible as you suggest. After all, they are merely spirits inhabiting its natural element. A fire elemental being a fire looks like a fire... darkness is darkness. (of course, an elemental acting outside its natural environment would be obvious ). Earth elementals can travel deeper underground and come up underneath, completely undetected. Secondly, the priest can be standing 180m away, so it won't actually be clear what they're doing. All the phalanx might see is someone casting a spell. I wouldn't use the term "freely", but it will depend on how tight the formation is (in theory, the shields should be covering their companion, so that's not much freedom move about). Also, their reach will be a factor, as well as getting past those in front. If the elemental is at ground level. The summoner probably won't be involved in melee anyway... Surprise is +3... after the initial attack. So, there's the first round gone. Dropping the pike +5 to base SR, then add SR to the attack. although, in tight formation, I'd add more. And then remember that the elemental is engulfing your companions, not standing off to the side waiting to be hit. So, combined with the formation reducing swing room (almost yo zero, thrust only) and trying not to hit your companions, I think a reduction in attack % is warranted. Shield bash - again, you're largely hitting your mates. I'm not trying yo suggest that using elementals against a formation is the ultimate solution. I'm merely trying to show that they can be used effectively against them. And that they can be worth the RP expenditure. (Wow!!! After typing that 2nd last sentence, my auto-fill offered both the Harrek and Gunda as my next words )

No - it'd be the other way around. The warriors would charge, and the magician would time the magic to coincide with that. If the elemental doesn't create the break, then you stop short of being impaled. (logically, I'd expect at least the front row to dive under the pikes. But, again, tactics and strategy - all depending on what you're facing. Who knows what to expect?? Which makes things more fun...

Like any tactic, it requires good strategy to get the most out of it. Otherwise, it can be worse than simply wasted. Also, it looks like we have very different ideas of value here. Elementals are certainly glass cannons. Normally, for theist cults, a large elemental costs 3 RPs to summon, and 1 RP to Command. However, they can also be summoned and bound in advance, so those 3 RPs can be used elsewhere. They also can't be Dismissed without the appropriate spell, which your enemies shouldn't have. So, yes, they are quite vulnerable to melee attacks, but as discussed above, in tight pike formation, that requires letting go of the primary to draw the shorter weapon - which takes time, exposes the formation, and in such a formation, the swinging should have heavy penalties... all while the elemental can move freely between the troops, burning, terrifying and freezing away... If a large elemental, such as a dehori, lune or urzani, can be dropped into a tight formation, then they can affect up to 10 troops at a time (or, for the urzani - fire elemental - affect a good 5-10 pikes (double or triple if there are a few lines overlapping) at a time - enough for a good opening to be made as they burn the weapons as the enemy charges). Most large elementals are doing 3D6 damage or similar direct to hit points. Again, to up to 10 at a time (depending on GM fiat... at the very least, 5 should be acceptable). Please tell me of any other Rune spells that can do 3D6 direct to 5-10 targets in 1 go for only (maximum) of 4 RP. And, then can do the same again to another group of targets for the same damage - for free! Even Talosi can be used like this... they don't need to kill. They just need to make the formation less cohesive to open up the lines and create a breach. Just ideas...

And that's what Reflection is for 😁

If someone put an elemental in the middle or behind a pike formation, I wouldn't be allowing the troops in that formation to be able to do anything about it for at least a couple of rounds - first from surprise, then dropping the pike to take out the sword/axe etc, and then on the third have a chance to attack back. So, 2 full rounds can wreak a bit of havoc. And then it can move to others. Other than the obvious, they can also move up to be out of range of melee weapons, giving the enemy time to advance into the breach, which should then refocus the pikers attention so that the elementals can come back down again. (guiding the elemental could be an issue... What's the ruling on how far away the spell caster can command? How are commands issued?) (yes, I get there might be an issue with being able to summon it anywhere you want). However, for those RPs, yes, they're a bit expensive unless you have someone dedicated to Commanding the elementals and moving them about to keep them safe while the rest of the troops attack.

Ok, I see your point. Perhaps... being a mercenary cult, and hopefully fairly logical, they don't teach the sword specifically as a tertiary weapon, but do have trainers who can teach a variety of tertiary weapons. After all, there is the tertiary skill bonus for infantry, so it's got to be done by someone. (or, perhaps, if not the cult, it can be supposed that it was just picked up in the intervening years of travelling around and fighting, rather than being specifically trained by a cult member??)

I think I'm currently thinking I agree with this... ETA: and thus, does one need separate Control Dog and Control Dog Spirit ? or is one superfluous?

I'd probably think number of Rune Points sacrificed to the deity to be relevant here, as it shows how strong the connection is... (along with the Runes themselves )

Tangential... What about dividing up shields more, not only by size, but shape as well ?

I meant... 3 pts for Teleporting in, however many points used in staying alive while at the back there (probably including needing to Shield up, probably at least one Heal Wound, if not a 3pt Heal Body, amongst others), and then probably another 3pts for Teleporting out.... Versus - you could use those 6+ points on a Thunderbolt to take down a few in one go with minimal risk to self.

Depends on how many RPs you have. But, given the probable expenditures involved, I'd say that's fairly inefficient. Thunderbolt is probably giving a much better bang for buck.

But materialism doesn't acknowledge the existence of "spirit" - it's literally part of the definition. Of course, that has nothing to do with Glorantha.

Well, actually, there's no reason why a Donadar cultist can't be more directly aggressive. Give them a crossbow, for instance. And while they won't be frontline warriors for a while, they'll still not be completely shabby at melee if they put some points into a weapon - 15% from Entertainer, and 25% from Personal, plus cultural and stats - could be 60% or higher.

Again, <le sigh> you're focussing on only ONE type of game play - the type that involves a lot of combat. Not everyone wants that. And so, not all cults should cater to that. Let's face it - entertainers really shouldn't be going out and putting themselves in danger anyway.... And if they've decided that they want to (perhaps for the better stories), then they should be joining a more adventurous cult as well.

But... Glorantha isn't a world in which the only things that matters are the PCs all on their little own-some. Nor is RQ intended to be simply yet another dungeon crawl RPG. Once again, it comes back to RP - what sort of character do the players want to play? Not everyone wants to be combat oriented, and certainly not all players want that style of play. And, while some players do want to be involved in that style of game, the cult shouldn't be required to ensure their survivability, because that's not what its priority is. I see it as not too dissimilar to playing a number of other cults - CA means being a complete passivist... there aren't a lot of complaints about that. Arroin means not having Rune Magic at all to heal with. Eurmal requires being an outcast or dregs of society being generally loathed and barely tolerated (and often not). Being a shaman means having significantly reduced access to Rune spells.

I'll agree that a couple of the "basic survival spells" should probably be more available (although, I don't know much/any of his actual lore).. but I think it's actually good that not all cults have access to everything. It allows for more RP flavour. Actual residents of Glorantha don't join cults because of the perks.. they do so because they follow a career path or calling. Also, RQ isn't about balance. And many cults are sub-optimal for the player. So, let's not make them all cookie-cutter, with a couple of special Rune Spells for a hint of individuality. Let there be sacrifices to make, choices and decisions that have consequences.

That's if you're into powergaming. If you're more into RP, then Donandar cultists will take the hit, and play the roll. Also remember that Donandar cultists will have much more freedom of movement throughout the various realms, whereas the Orlanthi won't be wandering around Lunar lands openly.

I'd like to see some sort of rule that exemplifies this!

Or go down instead of up... an earth elemental opening up a pit under the front row would cause havoc. Or a few thunderbolts.

Except that it does. Certainly not as free-form as a person GM, but the game does allow for bargaining, and how you decide to repay a debt is recorded. Usually there were a number of options, and your advisors would suggest various things - pay less because the debt isn't worth that much, pay more because it's good for reputation, pay what they ask because it's all we owe, etc... Some situations include letting the other clan have a valuable artifact, giving them cows, etc etc.

Minotaurs...

Yep! I love eating my dinner with shotgun and fork.... 😜

I thnk you've missed something here... Heavy Infantry get 25% in their primary and secondary weapons (and shield), and 15% for a tertiary. So, a Yelmalion would have 2H long spear and shield as primary, possibly 1H long spear as secondary, and then a sword (short?) as tertiary. iFF adding 25% to each, then the primaries and secondary should be about 80-90%** (depending on Manipulation bonus - I think 15% should be fairly normal), and their tertiary around 65-70% (which I wouldn't say is "pretty terrible" for an emergency weapon). And..... the length of the spear isn't clearly defined, so technically, do what you want with it! Is your 2m long spear short or long? Yes! ** 5-15% (Weapon base) + 10-15% (culture) + 25% (Occupation) + 25% (personal) + 15% (Manipulation) ... (tertiary may only be a 10% personal)

The dog has two spirits in it... its own, and the new one. Is the new one covert or overt? Dominant or passive? Actually, that's a good question - what happens to the original spirit when one binds a spirit to it?

Isn't that what the table is? A bunch of customised weapons...