Heroic Lhankor Mhy Questions

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

My feeling is that Buserian is an Aspect of Lhankor Mhy, the Aspect of Star Gazer, so Buserian Temples will have a lot more knowledge of Celestial/Stellar Lore than Lhankor Mhy temples in general.

This is an odd take imho; Buserian is certainly an older deity. His myths are all about the Ice Age and earlier. Lhankor Mhy is even in his own myths a much later god. I don't stan the Dara Happans (I do kinda stan the Pelandans, but we are only speculating he is Jenarong) but he is definitely is represented on the God's Wall with his rune. The Theyalans didn't have writing until much later - probably the Unity Council.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

On the subject of Lhankor Mhy and Buserian being the same entity, what about Buserian's Star lore? That seems to be a particular thing for the cult of Buserian, they are star-gazers and know an awful lot about Celestial Lore and Star Lore. Does this carry over to the Lhankor Mhy cult in general?

Come on, we are talking about sages, subcults, and cult heroes. Lylket library was full of troll writings, and I don't expect Buserian temples to have much (if any) of those.

Every library has its specialties, and every sage has his or her hobby horse, and is burdened with the ones of his superiors.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

My feeling is that Buserian is an Aspect of Lhankor Mhy, the Aspect of Star Gazer, so Buserian Temples will have a lot more knowledge of Celestial/Stellar Lore than Lhankor Mhy temples in general.

The Buserian temple layout is drastically different. I also have some doubt about the recognition of Elasa in the Dara Happan cult, about the admissibility of female sages to Buserian, and about the beard fetishism beyond the normal Dara Happan ones.

I expect Irrippi Ontor to use the Lhankor Mhy temple layout and admission pattern rather than the Buserian one - but then, people with access to the GaGoG pre-run can render those speculations moot.

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

In Small Gods, Terry Pratchett discusses why sausages and bacon are the best sacrifices to deities, mainly because they come from dead animals, have a pleasant smell that wafts up to the Divine Realms and the Priests can enjoy the cooked breakfast afterwards.

Pratchett phrases it better in Going Postal (both book and TV show) when Moist comes to the temple of Offler to pray for the financial miracle.

 

But, speaking of Pratchett and heroic librarians (whose obligatory hair is on the chin, not on extra long arms...), what about L-Space?

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

But, speaking of Pratchett and heroic librarians (whose obligatory hair is on the chin, not on extra long arms...), what about L-Space?

L-Space must be a thing in Glorantha, where Librarian HeroQuestors go into a Library, emerge into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library, go into another part and emerge in a different Library. It's a form of Magic Road to go from one Library to another. It can also be used to travel to the Libraries of other deities, for example Buserian and Irrippi Ontor, but that is more dangerous.

Obstacles faced might be:

• Leaving through the wrong annex and coming out in a different Library
• Being chased by hostile Temple Guards who think you have broken into the Library to steal Knowledge
• Allowing some creature through the cracks to start eating books
• Seeing so many books in lhankor Mhy's Library that you just sit down and start to read them all, forever trapped in the Library until you starve

 

[scott-martin]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

L-Space must be a thing in Glorantha, where Librarian HeroQuestors go into a Library, emerge into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library, go into another part and emerge in a different Library. It's a form of Magic Road to go from one Library to another. It can also be used to travel to the Libraries of other deities, for example Buserian and Irrippi Ontor, but that is more dangerous.

At the risk of looking retro this almost looks like a "sorcery plane." 

[soltakss]

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

19 minutes ago, soltakss said:

L-Space must be a thing in Glorantha, where Librarian HeroQuestors go into a Library, emerge into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library, go into another part and emerge in a different Library. It's a form of Magic Road to go from one Library to another. It can also be used to travel to the Libraries of other deities, for example Buserian and Irrippi Ontor, but that is more dangerous.

At the risk of looking retro this almost looks like a "sorcery plane."

No, no, please no!

Although, you do have a point. Such a thing might be possible, going from one node to another and back to a different node.

But, no, nothing like the Sorcery Plane. You go from a Library, through a magical door, or the pages of a book, to another Library, avoid the Dangers of Lhankor Mhy's Library, find another doorway, inkstand or book and go to the destination Library. Nothing sorcery about that.

[jajagappa]

36 minutes ago, soltakss said:

L-Space must be a thing in Glorantha, where Librarian HeroQuestors go into a Library, emerge into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library, go into another part and emerge in a different Library.

Happened in my game! Coming out of the Fog of Ignorance, they came to the Ivory Tower (which was under assault by Lunar magicians). After dispersing the Lunars they found the key to the tower and entered amidst LM's great stacks.  After wandering for a bit through those they found they were in the stacks within the Jonstown LM temple.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

This was the late Storm Age as far as I can tell.

Late Storm Age would make the Nidan range impassable unless the Psstorlists descend from Top of the World rather than the Spike.

I agree that Daxdarius usurping his place on Mt. Jernotius would be late Storm Age, but then his early deeds were a whole lot earlier.

Quote

The Dara Happans don't discuss these emperors in the Ascent; Gartemirus is apparently Garthum in the Unity List, but he's not in the GRoY. This would have been Urvairinus for Daxdarius, but the reigns are totally specious. He is given a lot of stories that belong to other people, and Nav Eria shows up in his reign for the first time (see below). No idea about Gartemirus.

My impression was that the hordes (and the Yolp range) appeared in or even before the Flood Age. The arrival of the Andams marked the change from Wendaria to Pelanda.

 

Quote

Daxdarius had the patronage of the Third Eye Blue, which I believe suggests it was late enough for them to have moved from their earlier settlement in Sechkaul, although not everyone buys that they are descended from Lopers.

I certainly don't allow even the possibility. The Third Eye Blue folk are goat herders and never appear as riders. Six Ages depicts them as dark-brown skinned, and I think they are closer to the mark with this incarnation of the game.

 

As far as I am concerned, they are one of the many deeply brown-skinned people of Fronela, possibly related to King Drona (who landed at Dorsomon/eastern Norans, Loskalm (p. 206) and then migrated on to Baklene in Junora (p.215). His companion Eurmal Friend of Men may have had something to do with misplacing the dwarven metal secrets.

In short, I am going for a Fronelan, possibly Brithos-related origin for TEB.

Bonus question: how do you mark a blue eye on blue skin?

 

[Joerg]

When asking about L-Space, the sorcery plane was indeed one of the concepts I considered. It doesn't have to be thundering Thesauri or Thursday Next-like book-jumping.

Another thing to consider: most Lhankor Mhy documents come with blessings and curses. The library shelves must be full of some of the most gruesome curses uttered in Glorantha. Trespassing through L-Space might trigger quite a few of these.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I rather imagined someone walked in among the racks of scrolls, and finding a passageway with new scrolls they'd never seen before. Walking around and around in twisting ways, the finding themselves somewhere else entirely.

A side-effect of concentrated knowledge and sacred geometry and all that.

 

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

the Psstorlists

The quitetest Storm people.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My impression was that the hordes (and the Yolp range) appeared in or even before the Flood Age. The arrival of the Andams marked the change from Wendaria to Pelanda.

GRoY says Anaxial was before Urvairinus, and the latter dealt with the Ram People (and the Yolp Range rose). But the story of Nav Eria deals with the Tyrant, who wears the Crown of Anaxial, so it shouldn't be before the Flood unless things are really confused.

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As far as I am concerned, they are one of the many deeply brown-skinned people of Fronela, possibly related to King Drona (who landed at Dorsomon/eastern Norans, Loskalm (p. 206) and then migrated on to Baklene in Junora (p.215). His companion Eurmal Friend of Men may have had something to do with misplacing the dwarven metal secrets.

*shrug* I always connected them with the Lopers of Sechkaul, who learnt to teleport and got the Sword of Tolat from the Artmali, who in their worship of Artmal the artificer paint a third eye on their forehead even today. In ancient times they had settled the Southeast before Sshorg and the Flood.

[soltakss]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I rather imagined someone walked in among the racks of scrolls, and finding a passageway with new scrolls they'd never seen before. Walking around and around in twisting ways, the finding themselves somewhere else entirely.

A side-effect of concentrated knowledge and sacred geometry and all that.

I like the idea of accidentally moving from your Library into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library and then having to get back again. Slipping between two bookcases, or moving between stcks of precariously-balanced scrolls would be a good way of doing this.

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

the Psstorlists

The quitetest Storm people.

Lhankor Mhy's Libraries have doughty Serpent-Amazons whose menacingly-hissed Ssssssh is enough to freeze the blood of the bravest of Sages.

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Lhankor Mhy's Libraries have doughty Serpent-Amazons whose menacingly-hissed Ssssssh is enough to freeze the blood of the bravest of Sages.

They are called Book Wyrms.

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They are called Book Wyrms.

Thank you very much, obvious in hindsight, but could I think of a good name for them?

[Sir_Godspeed]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They are called Book Wyrms.

I legitimately broke out in laughter over this. Well done.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

*shrug* I always connected them with the Lopers of Sechkaul, who learnt to teleport and got the Sword of Tolat from the Artmali, who in their worship of Artmal the artificer paint a third eye on their forehead even today. In ancient times they had settled the Southeast before Sshorg and the Flood.

I've been trying to find some parallel in the Danmalastan myths we have. I considered perhaps that they were some surviving branch of the Viymorni who were out for more Mostali secrets after Vadel soured that relationship - but that's super-speculative, they could be descended from any of the five other Danmalastani groups as well, or indeed it's questionable whether the Six Original Peoples is relevant to ascertaining their identity/origin at all.

I *am* tempted to relate them to the various other Western groups we see popping up in Pelanda/Sweet Sea area though, as opposed to the Zaranistangi. And even if they're blue-skinned, there are other candidates for that, given the various Blue Folk over there.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[davecake]

On 8/26/2019 at 6:33 AM, Joerg said:

This lack of normal herd beasts was one reason why I speculated that the broos in the nargan needed some time of adaptation if they wanted to breed with anything other than their (quite dangerous) Doraddi foes.

There are plenty of other animal life for broo to mate with other than cows or milk antelope animals. Warthogs, other antelopes and gazelles, elands, rhinoceroses, wildebeest, and a really big array of megafauna. The prevalence of megafauna may be a practical reason (along with the general mythic tendency) why there are less broo in Pamaltela, but they are more indiividually dangerous - there are probably a few megafauna broo. 

That said, I think your average broo in the nargan or the plains generally is probably some form of antelope headed. 

[Sub]

On 8/25/2019 at 5:56 AM, Joerg said:

Oh my, what a hornet's nest to stir up...

You really weren't kidding!

I might avoid concepts from the monomyth for now. I don't have The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm or The Entekosiad right now, although it sounds like it might be worth getting them soon. It might be a little too difficult for me as a Glorantha newbie to do the level of detail justice while also making it fun for my heroic Lhankor Mhy player to discover and engage with.

I really appreciate everyone who's taken the time to respond, and I'm still reading your posts over and making notes to try and further my understanding.

Some of my original questions came from a picture of LM in theistic context. The scholar as an intelligent god from the other world who is capable of watching and judging my player, and, depending on his actions, grants him more or less command over his magic. This includes his ability to read, and really anything to do with the core Runes LM is approached through. Perhaps behaving like LM's theistic enemies would weaken my player's magic, whereas knowledge hoarding and secret-keeping might strengthen it. This is why I had questions about Illumination and such -- how does that picture of LM start to slip away when you start doing experimental heroquesting? Was the LM who was watching, judging and hoarding before just another heroquester, from an enemy faction of a distant, but still friendly temple? Some of my questions around this are probably going to come in a future thread, though, and your responses about the details of the gods and how they are viewed through the multiple lenses contributes to that. Thank you again.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Sub
typos

[scott-martin]

10 minutes ago, Sub said:

It might be a little too difficult for me as a Glorantha newbie to do the level of detail justice while also making it fun for my heroic Lhankor Mhy player to discover and engage with

Keep changing it up! You are rocking. Until your players see it for themselves past publishing is a closed book nobody cares about outside the knowledge temple.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/26/2019 at 12:16 PM, soltakss said:

L-Space must be a thing in Glorantha, where Librarian HeroQuestors go into a Library, emerge into Lhankor Mhy's Great Library, go into another part and emerge in a different Library. It's a form of Magic Road to go from one Library to another. It can also be used to travel to the Libraries of other deities, for example Buserian and Irrippi Ontor, but that is more dangerous.

 

I have postulated this several times now. I am certain it exists.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/26/2019 at 12:16 PM, soltakss said:

• Seeing so many books in lhankor Mhy's Library that you just sit down and start to read them all, forever trapped in the Library until you starve

 

The horror!

[Bill the barbarian]

31 minutes ago, Sub said:

I might avoid concepts from the monomyth for now. I don't have The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm or The Entekosiad right now, although it sounds like it might be worth getting them soon. It might be a little too difficult for me as a Glorantha newbie to do the level of detail justice while also making it fun for my heroic Lhankor Mhy player to discover and engage with.

 

Oh truly, set phasers on ignore for most of this stuff... Or be prepared for the lost SAN. I have never touched on any of the esoterica in 2 decades of gaming and I hope to never do so. YGMV!

Cheers

[Qizilbashwoman]

55 minutes ago, Sub said:

I might avoid concepts from the monomyth for now.

Yeah, feel free to just just use RQG. Although I have to say the Glorantha Sourcebook is 100% current, well-illustrated, and explains simply about the pantheons, so it's worth getting.

Stuff like the Entekosiad is like trying a hit of weed for the first time and then someone giving you mescaline. It's not necessary. It's deeply, deeply difficult to understand, and it has little to do with the kind of games a newbie will play as it's about the esoteric secrets of the ancient past of Peloria (the far side of the Lunar Empire) discovered by a Lunar heroquester. You won't even recognise the main deities even if they are identified as a Mask of a current deity like Oria, Orogeria, and Lodril.

Stick to RQG and really Glorantha Sourcebook and you'll have the basics of the pantheons as well as all you need to know to play in Sartar

[Ali the Helering]

Try playing in a game run by Tindalos. Why be less than esoteric? 

[davecake]

I have to say that if your Lhankor Mhy player (or you yourself) are experiencing any difficulty in understanding how Illumination can be reconciled with the pursuit of knowledge, or for that matter the value of Pelorian esoterica like the Entekosiad, those Irripi Ontor guys are right there to explain it all to you. They are definitely willing to help.

And if you end up deciding the Lunars are right at some point, well, that’s just natural. 

Subtle manipulation and scheming, while appearing helpful and friendly, is classic IO tactics. While IO magicians can handle themselves in a fight the way LM generally can’t (thanks to Mindblast and Madness, some of the best attack spells in the game), they usually prefer to carefully learn what their opponents are up too, and then manipulate them. And Illuminated IO magicians can use Illusion magic as well as Truth. 

IO magicians make great long term antagonists for LM heroes, especially if the relationship can develop some frenemy aspects. While my Red Cow game has no LM PCs, Tatoukal Blackbeard has been a terrific help to the PCs - and now controls one PC through blackmail. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Subtle manipulation and scheming, while appearing helpful and friendly, is classic IO tactics. While IO magicians can handle themselves in a fight the way LM generally can’t (thanks to Mindblast and Madness, some of the best attack spells in the game), they usually prefer to carefully learn what their opponents are up too, and then manipulate them. And Illuminated IO magicians can use Illusion magic as well as Truth. 

Brown Sages, as they are called, will be interesting to see in the new Bagog, which is my formal submission for the eminently forgettable abbreviation for the whatever the new Gods of Glorantha book is abbreviated as (GoGoG or something).

They used to have the usual sagely benefits of advanced literacy (beyond the urban advantages of the Seven Mothers and other Lunar Cults in New Pelorian, I mean, to read and identify Malkioni, Buserian, and Lhankor Mhy documents as basic training) and the like with stuff like Bedazzle Enemy God. Beastly.

The other thing I'm interested in is what they do with the several Jakaleel traditions! That person, who might have been an uz, a human, a Kitori, or some other thing, has I think five or six official distinct magical traditions, four of which are shamanic (Before Dark, Red School of Masks, Young Elementals, Hell Witches) and one of which is sorcerous (Tetese's Spindle Hag Order). Before Dark is the indigenous one from before the Red Goddess and is Blue Moon uz stuff.

Jakaleel's always been a mystery because she's portrayed as a large-tusked human and they also always show her sitting so she looks shorter. I don't know if that's Lunar Way marketing or what, and if so, was it to the uz or the humans? Were they trying to sell her as a human? I feel like they were and she was something else. Kitori seem far away, but I suppose they had a really long time to get to the Blue Moon. Maybe she was a really unusually talented enlo or unusually short uzko?