Winter in Dragon Pass

[Austin]

I was looking at the cold exposure and homeland temperatures in RQG (pages 161 and 104, respectively) and it struck me that much of Dragon Pass seems somewhat... balmy.

Now to be entirely fair, I'm Minnesotan, so temps of 20F/-7C are more my winter daytime norm, and there's all the modern living baggage associated too. But still, it feels odd to me that Sartar gets warm enough during the day, typically, to melt snow. However, I've also noticed that the temperatures are all set in major towns, which typically are in valleys, more sheltered areas.

Since I am not a nature-ologist, I thought I'd ask and see if anyone on here has a good idea for what more extreme Dragon Pass temperatures look like. I remember that in KoDP if I ever tried sending explorers in Dark season, they pretty much always never returned; those sorts of temperatures are what I'm trying to nail down (so I can subject players to them, naturally).

The lowest marked in RQG is 14F/-10C in Clearwine overnight during late Dark season. So would that be about 10F/-12C up in the Starfire Ridges? How about over in Boldhome? Maybe "typical" blizzard temps of 0F/-18C throughout Sartar? I'm just not sure how much the elevation and weather patterns in those areas ought to impact temperature.

Thanks!

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I was looking at the cold exposure and homeland temperatures in RQG (pages 161 and 104, respectively) and it struck me that much of Dragon Pass seems somewhat... balmy.

Now to be entirely fair, I'm Minnesotan, so temps of 20F/-7C are more my winter daytime norm, and there's all the modern living baggage associated too. But still, it feels odd to me that Sartar gets warm enough during the day, typically, to melt snow. However, I've also noticed that the temperatures are all set in major towns, which typically are in valleys, more sheltered areas.

Since I am not a nature-ologist, I thought I'd ask and see if anyone on here has a good idea for what more extreme Dragon Pass temperatures look like. I remember that in KoDP if I ever tried sending explorers in Dark season, they pretty much always never returned; those sorts of temperatures are what I'm trying to nail down (so I can subject players to them, naturally).

The lowest marked in RQG is 14F/-10C in Clearwine overnight during late Dark season. So would that be about 10F/-12C up in the Starfire Ridges? How about over in Boldhome? Maybe "typical" blizzard temps of 0F/-18C throughout Sartar? I'm just not sure how much the elevation and weather patterns in those areas ought to impact temperature.

Thanks!

Since this is Glorantha, elevation is quite sure not to follow the barometric formula for temperature. (Which is a bit of a pity - having that 800 m high island outside of my window at Drag i Tysfjord was a cheap outside thermometer in spring and autumn, as the frost border elevation was easy to determine on clear days.)

The mythic reason for convection in Glorantha is a bit unclear, but warm stuff seeking to rejoin the eternal fire of the sky sounds about right, and cold stuff being attracted by the ultimate Dark at the bottom of the world fits, too.

Mountaintops are cold because:

• They are the home of Inora (presumably the daughter of Himile, half-sister to Orlanth, Yinkin, Tara/Velhara and Quivin)
• They are adjacent to the Middle Air, and Sky has been weakened here

(The white top of the Spike on the other hand appears to have been caused by the purest of flames and the matching forest.)

Dragon Pass still has strong maritime influence, and Rozgali is a fairly warm current, at least the equal of the Gulf Stream off western Europe.

Even with a predominantly northerly wind, there is a good chance for balmy air from the south being sucked into the Pass region all the way to the bottom of the Dragonspine ridge as counter-currents.

Midwinter in Glorantha has a day length of about 8 hours (Guide p.112 - night length of 16 hours), a bit shorter than in Seattle or Montreal. Comparable to Denmark, really.

Temperatures are ruled by three factors in Glorantha - the sun, air currents, and sea currents.

Sea currents are dominant in providing warmth from the southeast, with two doom currents spawned off boiling Togaro and only one spawned off icy Hudaro. Storm is instrumental in carrying the cold of the Glacier eastward across Genertela.

The Sun warms up wherever its rays touch down and aren't reflected or blocked. The Night Sky doesn't actively spread cold, though (under RQ3, Xentha had the Shadow Rune rather than the full Darkness Rune), but it still accepts the updrift of warm air.

The Skyfall acts like a warm current in winter, too - its source doesn't change temperature with the seasons. The Middle Air does cool down in winter, but what arrives at Skyfall Lake remains mostly liquid.

 

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

I would also think that there's a lot of variability with the winters, depending on what forces currently have the upper hand. Some winters are likely to be vicious, while others can probably be fairly mild. Add on this the possibility of improving the weather by going out and beating up the ice demons...

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would also think that there's a lot of variability with the winters, depending on what forces currently have the upper hand. Some winters are likely to be vicious, while others can probably be fairly mild. Add on this the possibility of improving the weather by going out and beating up the ice demons...

Isn't that more of a magical war than a literal one? I thought hollri were more a function of the environment than a producer of it. You'd want to fight the ice spirits, not the hollri, as they seem to be able to provide worship to deities.

I mean, still kill the hollri. Don't need no hollri in your stead eating babies.

[soltakss]

On 9/19/2019 at 2:28 PM, Joerg said:

They are the home of Inora (presumably the daughter of Himile, half-sister to Orlanth, Yinkin, Tara/Velhara and Quivin)

I make Inora the daughter of Valind, so Oranth's great-niece.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I make Inora the daughter of Valind, so Oranth's great-niece.

That's too little Darkness-ancestry for me. Inora is a spirit (or deity) of Darkness.

[soltakss]

She could have a darkness mother, wife of Valind, maybe a daughter of Himile. Who is Valind's mother? Might also be a darkness deity, perhaps another daughter of Himile.

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's too little Darkness-ancestry for me. Inora is a spirit (or deity) of Darkness.

That's interesting, I see her as even having a bit of Light to her - the light reflecting off the snowy peaks is hers!

(Although maybe she just stole that from Yelmalio.)

[Jeff]

On 9/19/2019 at 12:46 PM, Crel said:

I was looking at the cold exposure and homeland temperatures in RQG (pages 161 and 104, respectively) and it struck me that much of Dragon Pass seems somewhat... balmy.

Now to be entirely fair, I'm Minnesotan, so temps of 20F/-7C are more my winter daytime norm, and there's all the modern living baggage associated too. But still, it feels odd to me that Sartar gets warm enough during the day, typically, to melt snow. However, I've also noticed that the temperatures are all set in major towns, which typically are in valleys, more sheltered areas.

Since I am not a nature-ologist, I thought I'd ask and see if anyone on here has a good idea for what more extreme Dragon Pass temperatures look like. I remember that in KoDP if I ever tried sending explorers in Dark season, they pretty much always never returned; those sorts of temperatures are what I'm trying to nail down (so I can subject players to them, naturally).

The lowest marked in RQG is 14F/-10C in Clearwine overnight during late Dark season. So would that be about 10F/-12C up in the Starfire Ridges? How about over in Boldhome? Maybe "typical" blizzard temps of 0F/-18C throughout Sartar? I'm just not sure how much the elevation and weather patterns in those areas ought to impact temperature.

Thanks!

For what it is worth, you find weather like Minnesota in Yuthuppa, Elz Ast, Joranit or the Thunder Delta (at least you did prior to the Kalikos Expeditions). Sartar is far to the south. Its weather  is more like that of Switzerland or highland Bulgaria. 

[soltakss]

54 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Although maybe she just stole that from Yelmalio.)

I think she did. That is what she gained on the Hill of Gold.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Elz Ast

Wasn't Elz Ast described as the city with the absolute worst weather in Glorantha somewhere? I remember reading about how it is like a pit of horrid mud swamps and Alaska mosquitos in the brief warm times and a frozen hellscape when it isn't.

And when the Lunars did their "respite from the cold" trick, it was "horrid mud swamps and Alaska mosquitos, now with malaria"

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Wasn't Elz Ast described as the city with the absolute worst weather in Glorantha somewhere? I remember reading about how it is like a pit of horrid mud swamps and Alaska mosquitos in the brief warm times and a frozen hellscape when it isn't.

And when the Lunars did their "respite from the cold" trick, it was "horrid mud swamps and Alaska mosquitos, now with malaria"

I believe it was compared to some midwestern or Canadian city in terms of temperature

Ah, found it. Quebec City, apparently.
 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

Peloria being pretty cold in winter, and Dragon Pass relatively mild is probably one of those reasons why certain terminology associated with northern Europe is seen as misleading for the Orlanthi. The same goes for the wine vs. beer debate, with ale probably being more prevalent in Peloria, but since many people associate the Lunar Empire with the Roman Empire*, Ancient Sumar-Akkadia or the like, wine seems more "thematic", while ale-swigging Orlanthi also seems more "thematic" for many. (Classist wine vs. beer biases probably also come into play - consistently referring to the Orlanthi as "barbarians" in promotional material probably doesn't help).

*Apparently pseudo-Latin terms for a continental temperated cvilization isn't seen as misleading, but that's neither here nor there.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I believe it was compared to some midwestern or Canadian city in terms of temperature. Ah, found it. Quebec City, apparently.

"Elz Ast is an awful place" - Jeff

At least I remembered it correctly.

The real question is what idiots wear togas in what is essentially Wyoming, the Dakotas, and near-Canada

Edited September 20, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

23 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

consistently referring to the Orlanthi as "barbarians" in promotional material probably doesn't help

Hey!

[Sir_Godspeed]

21 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey!

You know what you did to Rome!

[Bill the barbarian]

44 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hey

I didn’t do it, I was on the oner side of the continent at the time... You can’t prove a thing!

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The real question is what idiots wear togas in what is essentially Wyoming, the Dakotas, and near-Canada

Well you might well in Fireseason when the temps soar. The secret is what they wear under the togas in Darkseason - some nice thick woolens sheared from highland sheep.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ah, found it. Quebec City, apparently.

Also Duluth, Minnesota.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, jajagappa said:

Well you might well in Fireseason when the temps soar. The secret is what they wear under the togas in Darkseason - some nice thick woolens sheared from highland sheep.

the temps don't get warm enough in fire season to warrant togas!

I feel like maybe you don't really have a handle on this region's temperatures, like, it's 75 F during the hot month. the world record is 97 F in QC but that's global warming and freak weather, combined. Normally it's *twenty* degrees cooler - and that's Elz Ast with the Lunar cold block in place.

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the temps don't get warm enough in fire season to warrant togas!

Having grown up in western Wisconsin near St. Paul, and having travelled several times by car across the prairie states in mid-summer, they get plenty hot enough (and well above 75 F)!  And the upper Mississippi valley was certainly in mind with Dara Happa.  Cooler certainly than Chicago (where a month straight of 90+ degrees could certainly occur even before our last 20 years), but upper 80s/low 90s was typical.

[Bill the barbarian]

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Having grown up in western Wisconsin near St. Paul, and having travelled several times by car across the prairie states in mid-summer, they get plenty hot enough (and well above 75 F)!  And the upper Mississippi valley was certainly in mind with Dara Happa.  Cooler certainly than Chicago (where a month straight of 90+ degrees could certainly occur even before our last 20 years), but upper 80s/low 90s was typical.

The number of times that it hit 40 degrees in the summer on the Manitoba Prairies (The other side of the Upper Mississippi) is legend. You have not seen hot until your Jamaican bud is letting you know it’s too damn hot! Minus 40 in the winter to plus 40 in the summer. Wild!

Edited September 21, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The number of times that it hit 40 degrees in the summer on the Manitoba Prairies is legend. You have not seen hot until your Jamaican bud is letting you know it’s too damn hot!

and so you think in that climate you'd want to wear a toga?

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

and so you think in that climate you'd want to wear a toga?

Have you any idea how hot plus 40 is? If naked was legal...

Edited September 21, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Sir_Godspeed]

Wait, first it was too cold to wear togas, and now it's too warm to wear togas?

If it's any consolation, the Romans hated wearing togas themselves, and very nearly dropped the whole deal, if we are to believe some very irate speeches recorded during the - iirc - late Republican era. Traditionalism won through, though.

(This is all assuming that Dara Happans even wear anything equivalent of a toga, and not just some other kind of robe. Others know better than me on this, I just go by the art references).

I'm more interested in what our poor Lodrilite farmworkers put on during the cold months when the irrigation ditches freeze over and your (presumably) flat-roofed clay brick house gets covered in three feet of snow.

Maybe some inspiration from northern China is in its place. Apart from the Gobi, I mean. I don't know.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed