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Battle of Pennel Ford in 1624

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Could you tell me more about "Battle of Pennel Ford"?  Although mentioned in RQG shortly, there are many unclear part  ( though I may have overlooked it).

1) When did the battle take place? Which season, week, day of 1624?

2) What units did you participate in? Lunar Empire, Nochet, Warm Earth, Red Earth, Wolf Pirates, Solanthi, King Broyan, Mercenaries, and others? 

3) Which hero participated? Argrath, Harrek, Queen Samastina, Hendira, King Broyan, Graymane, their sons are sure, Gunda the Guilty, Mularik Ironeye etc?

Thank you in Advance !

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54 minutes ago, mallion said:

Could you tell me more about "Battle of Pennel Ford"?  Although mentioned in RQG shortly, there are many unclear part  ( though I may have overlooked it).

The Glorantha Sourcebook mentions the battle for some of Argrath's companions (Mularik, Narib - p44) and has a pictorial representation (p38).

 

54 minutes ago, mallion said:

1) When did the battle take place? Which season, week, day of 1624?

The only hint for a date that I could find lies in the description of the appearance of Orlanth's Ring, moving up one third of the distance to Pole Star (after having been suppressed earlier since the Fall of Whitewall). We do know that the cloud cover was 50% or less during the battle (when the big Sunspear struck Harrek).

Unfortunately, we only know of the Dragonrise that Orlanth's Ring had no business appearing in the sky on the date of the temple dedication, so it is hard to calculate the possible dates for the battle from that little bit of sky lore.

54 minutes ago, mallion said:

2) What units did you participate in? Lunar Empire, Nochet, Warm Earth, Red Earth, Wolf Pirates, Solanthi, King Broyan, Mercenaries, and others? 

Yelmic priests of the Lunar College, troops from the Siege of Nochet, the Grazeland Army under the FHQ in the service of the Lunars, the Solanthi (starting on Broyan's side, dying as turncoats after Harrek had cleared out the Yelmic priests).

Broyan and his followers were there, probably including Kallyr and other Sartarite rebels. Argrath somehow ended up Caladrian spearmen, Harrek had his wolf pirates, Sir Narib most likely supported Nochet. And sundry Esrolians (likely on both sides).

The Sourcebook makes vague sounds about the Sartar Magical Union making its first appearance there, which I would take to mean the Eaglebrowns (the former heroband of Dernu and Gernu, possibly in the middle of its transition into a band of warlocks). And Sir Narib is confirmed.

54 minutes ago, mallion said:

3) Which hero participated? Argrath, Harrek, Queen Samastina, Hendira, King Broyan, Graymane, their sons are sure, Gunda the Guilty, Mularik Ironeye etc?

Hendira probably was excused on grounds of having left the world of the living, as this is the closure to the Siege of Nochet that kept the Lunars out - something which wouldn't have happened under Hendira's leadership.

Gunda and Mularik are confirmed (Gunda in the ransom bit of Vasana's Saga, Mularik in the Sourcebook).

Participation of several Sartar rebel bands is possible, but unlikely all of those described in the Sartar Rising campaign. Kallyr and Leika are likely to have fought in Broyan's personal band. Second tier folk like Vasana are somewhere in the mix, too.

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4 hours ago, mallion said:

3) Which hero participated? Argrath, Harrek, Queen Samastina, Hendira, King Broyan, Graymane, their sons are sure, Gunda the Guilty, Mularik Ironeye etc?

I don't think Esrolians were there in large numbers, and not Samastina, as while the Lunars were repelled from the siege of Warm Earth Nochet, it was a brutal affair and the city suffered significant losses. They were in no shape to send troops anywhere and Samastina and her Ring were still keeping order in the city.

A city after siege is a city close to anarchy; certainly the near-loss was a boost to morale but things were very unstable, the walls were breached and sections of the city ruined, and there was significant civil, martial, and ritual work to be done.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman

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10 hours ago, mallion said:

1) When did the battle take place? Which season, week, day of 1624?

I don't recall finalizing the date in discussions with Jeff, but it is late Seaseason 1624.

This is roughly noted in the Glorantha Sourcebook, p.37-38: "In Sea Season 1624, Kallyr Starbrow helped raise a new blue planet, called the Boat Planet, in the Sky and it began making its way through the Celestial River... Shortly after the Boat Planet’s rise, a makeshift army, composed of cooperative remnants of the Holy Country led by King Broyan, Wolf Pirates led by Harrek the Berserk, and a Manirian host led by Greymane, marched to fight the Lunar Army. The Lunar lifted their useless siege of Nochet and went eagerly to battle. The two armies met at the ford of Pennel."

10 hours ago, mallion said:

2) What units did you participate in? Lunar Empire, Nochet, Warm Earth, Red Earth, Wolf Pirates, Solanthi, King Broyan, Mercenaries, and others?

Yes. All of those. @M Helsdon has probably gathered most of the information on the specific units where such info exists. 

10 hours ago, mallion said:

3) Which hero participated? Argrath, Harrek, Queen Samastina, Hendira, King Broyan, Graymane, their sons are sure, Gunda the Guilty, Mularik Ironeye etc?

Unclear whether Greymane actually participated, but sons definitely did (and on both sides). The betrayal by one of his sons is what enraged Harrek and led to the Lunar army rout.

Sir Narib is there - he's one of the "mercenaries" that joins Samastina's side at the battle. I believe Gold-Gotti is with Harrek, Gunda, and the Wolf Pirates there as well.

I don't believe that Kallyr was there - she was on the boat rise, and then I believe pursued her own efforts from there.  Leika may have been there with Broyan.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Sourcebook makes vague sounds about the Sartar Magical Union making its first appearance there, which I would take to mean the Eaglebrowns

I think the Warm Sisters are the unit involved. Don't recall whether Eaglebrowns are there or not - but remember that Argrath is fresh off of circumnavigation.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hendira probably was excused on grounds of having left the world of the living, as this is the closure to the Siege of Nochet that kept the Lunars out - something which wouldn't have happened under Hendira's leadership.

Hendira is there, along with the Red Earth Alliance, and Pennel Ford is where she dies.

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't think Esrolians were there in large numbers, and not Samastina, as while the Lunars were repelled from the siege of Warm Earth Nochet, it was a brutal affair and the city suffered significant losses. They were in no shape to send troops anywhere and Samastina and her Ring were still keeping order in the city.

There are plenty of Esrolians there. Hendira's Red Earth Alliance is there, and is crushed.  The Warm Earth Alliance allied to the Demivierge of Rhigos is there. The Old Earth Alliance which put Samastina on the throne is probably least represented, but there are certainly Esrolians who went out of Nochet with Broyan to pursue the retreating Lunars.  Samastina sent Broyan (and Argrath and Harrek) - I think that is correct that she stayed in Nochet.

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Thank you for your replay!

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Glorantha Sourcebook mentions the battle for some of Argrath's companions (Mularik, Narib - p44) and has a pictorial representation (p38).

Other possibilities are Rurik Runespear, Goldgotti, Tarkala the Lover, Tosti Runefriend?

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unfortunately, we only know of the Dragonrise that Orlanth's Ring had no business appearing in the sky on the date of the temple dedication, so it is hard to calculate the possible dates for the battle from that little bit of sky lore.

Thank you very much. There is too little information to fix the date.

I just want to know the season at least.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yelmic priests of the Lunar College, troops from the Siege of Nochet, the Grazeland Army under the FHQ in the service of the Lunars, the Solanthi (starting on Broyan's side, dying as turncoats after Harrek had cleared out the Yelmic priests).

Broyan and his followers were there, probably including Kallyr and other Sartarite rebels. Argrath somehow ended up Caladrian spearmen, Harrek had his wolf pirates, Sir Narib most likely supported Nochet. And sundry Esrolians (likely on both sides).

The Sourcebook makes vague sounds about the Sartar Magical Union making its first appearance there, which I would take to mean the Eaglebrowns (the former heroband of Dernu and Gernu, possibly in the middle of its transition into a band of warlocks). And Sir Narib is confirmed.

Is there a possibility around Warm Sisters and Rune Companions?

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hendira probably was excused on grounds of having left the world of the living, as this is the closure to the Siege of Nochet that kept the Lunars out - something which wouldn't have happened under Hendira's leadership.

Gunda and Mularik are confirmed (Gunda in the ransom bit of Vasana's Saga, Mularik in the Sourcebook).

Participation of several Sartar rebel bands is possible, but unlikely all of those described in the Sartar Rising campaign. Kallyr and Leika are likely to have fought in Broyan's personal band. Second tier folk like Vasana are somewhere in the mix, too.

 

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't think Esrolians were there in large numbers, and not Samastina, as while the Lunars were repelled from the siege of Warm Earth Nochet, it was a brutal affair and the city suffered significant losses. They were in no shape to send troops anywhere and Samastina and her Ring were still keeping order in the city.

A city after siege is a city close to anarchy; certainly the near-loss was a boost to morale but things were very unstable, the walls were breached and sections of the city ruined, and there was significant civil, martial, and ritual work to be done.

Hendira asked Tatius for help, so I think he was there.

Could it be that Samastina didn't participate in the battle, leaving everything to Harrek and Argrath?

 

Thank you for your teaching!

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2 hours ago, mallion said:

Hendira asked Tatius for help, so I think he was there.

Tatius was not there (and was not at the Siege of Nochet either) - he would have been killed if he was.  See KoS p.125 "But the spell did not work correctly. The Sun God was blinded or something, for at that moment all of the participating Lunar magicians who were not members of the Sun cult died when their brains caught fire. And, worse yet, almost one tenth of all of the magicians working to build the new temple, almost 200 miles away, were also killed by fire at that moment. At the same time, Orlanth’s Ring, now comprised of eleven stars instead of eight, triumphantly appeared out of the Stormgate and rapidly climbed a third of the way up the Sky Dome. This disturbed Tatius’ work, despite his best intentions."

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2 hours ago, mallion said:

Other possibilities are Rurik Runespear, Goldgotti, Tarkala the Lover, Tosti Runefriend?

Rurik had been with Argrath, so possible. Gold-Gotti was likely there. Tosti is probably in Jonstown. Tarkala seems unlikely.

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1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Rurik had been with Argrath, so possible. Gold-Gotti was likely there. Tosti is probably in Jonstown. Tarkala seems unlikely.

Interesting. One of the more enigmatic things I had read in the RQ2/3? lore lacking days of yore had been the mention that though his friends were sure he has finally died at the hands of a trollkin, of course, was he had been spotted twice after. Can not recall the source (grognards?) but I have held that close to my chest as GM for a long time.

Was it the original rules, Pavis, or maybe one of the later RoC, Ken Ralston and MOB books that had that tidbit?

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Hendira is there, along with the Red Earth Alliance, and Pennel Ford is where she dies.

@jajagappa

oh my, I must be confused. so the Lunar siege of Nochet when Samastina is queen is a separate siege? Why would there have been a siege of Nochet about 1620 when Hendira was still queen?

I've got all my books packed (I'm mid-move) so I confused the Warm and and Old Earth Alliance, my very bad. I'm... not good at moving due to a disability so my brains are scattered everywhere.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman

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13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't recall finalizing the date in discussions with Jeff, but it is late Seaseason 1624.

Thank you for Clarification! So we assume Argrath came back from Circum Navigation in late 1623?

But I'm not sure why Wolf Pirates intervened in the battle between the Empire and Old Earth Alliance.

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Sir Narib is there - he's one of the "mercenaries" that joins Samastina's side at the battle. I believe Gold-Gotti is with Harrek, Gunda, and the Wolf Pirates there as well.

I don't believe that Kallyr was there - she was on the boat rise, and then I believe pursued her own efforts from there.  Leika may have been there with Broyan.

OK, Samastina stayed in Nochet and sent Broyan and Sartar Rebels there. Broyan was helped by Samastina at Auroch Hills.

Again, the question is that Hallek is supposed to be a villain, who caused severe damage to Holy Country. Why did you decide to enter the Esloria side?

 

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1 hour ago, mallion said:

But I'm not sure why Wolf Pirates intervened in the battle between the Empire and Old Earth Alliance.

Harrek hates Lunars a lot due to prior history with them. I can't remember precisely, but I think Harrek participates in return for Broyan saying Harrek can sack the City of Wonders, which happens later in 1624.

Other people that could be there: Elusu, Argrath's trickster. Orlmarl the Charioteer, Argrath's Mastakos guy. Feels like Tarkala could be there, but would have just recently met Argrath. Maybe Pennel Ford is where they meet?

I think Greymane is dead either in this battle or before. Per Glorantha Sourcebook p38 "With Greymane and his sons dead, the surviving Western Barbarians scattered back to Maniria."

(Future) Sartar Magical Union Warlock units that could be there, per pages 212-213 of Glorantha Sourcebook: Night Jumpers, who predate Argrath. Night Jumpers are Hendriki, so could be traveling with Broyan. Sir Narib's Company is definitely there, nominally in Esrolian service, and joined Argrath in 1624. The Eaglebrown Warlocks were the "first" of the units created and were composed of the kinds of people who were with Argrath during the circumnavigation and/or joined just after, so they're probably here at least in a proto-form. The Warm Sisters were formed just after this battle, "one of the first units of warlocks," so the core of that regiment of warlocks is surely here fighting and impressing Argrath enough to be granted magical secrets afterwards.

Despite all these presences, it's worth noting that the Sartar Magical Union as a proper, organized, named force doesn't appear until Sword Hill in 1627.

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19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes. All of those. @M Helsdon has probably gathered most of the information on the specific units where such info exists. 

Afraid I have very little information: Dunstop Foot, Gold-Gotti and his Wolf Pirates, unidentified elements of what became the Sartar Magical Union, and Sir Narib’s Company.

The Warm Sisters are one of the first units of warlocks and were formed soon after the Battle of Pennel Ford. 

Edited by M Helsdon

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20 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

One of the more enigmatic things I had read in the RQ2/3? lore lacking days of yore had been the mention that though his friends were sure he has finally died at the hands of a trollkin, of course, was he had been spotted twice after. Can not recall the source (grognards?) but I have held that close to my chest as GM for a long time.

Was it the original rules, Pavis, or maybe one of the later RoC, Ken Ralston and MOB books that had that tidbit?

There was a tidbit, probably in one of MOB's books, suggesting that. 

But see this far more recent post by MOB: 

 

19 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

oh my, I must be confused. so the Lunar siege of Nochet when Samastina is queen is a separate siege? Why would there have been a siege of Nochet about 1620 when Hendira was still queen?

There was no siege in 1620, or at any time while Hendira was queen.  Hendira becomes queen in 1610 and holds that until Earthseason 1622 when Samastina ousts her in a coup.  Hendira and her Red Earth faction flee Nochet, but wait for aid from the Lunars.  That arrives in 1623, and the Lunar siege lasts roughly a year.  The Lunars cannot shut down the shipping lanes though, so Nochet stays reasonably supplied, and Broyan is able to get into the city with aid.

10 hours ago, mallion said:

So we assume Argrath came back from Circum Navigation in late 1623?

Early 1624 (or possibly Sacred Time end of 1623). Completion of the circumnavigation is a prerequisite to completing the rise of the Boat Planet and permanently ending the Closing.

10 hours ago, mallion said:

Broyan was helped by Samastina at Auroch Hills.

Yes, or at least how that is portrayed in the examples in the HQG book.

10 hours ago, mallion said:

the question is that Hallek is supposed to be a villain, who caused severe damage to Holy Country. Why did you decide to enter the Esloria side?

Argrath and Broyan convinced him, i.e. offered him plunder, specifically the City of Wonders. Also Harrek has a long history of hating the Lunar Empire dating from the time he was an assassin in the Lunar Dart Wars.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There was a tidbit, probably in one of MOB's books, suggesting that. 

 

Yes that  sounds correct as the one quoted feels to new to be the ones I remember from long ago

Thank you, I will start my search then...

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On 9/25/2019 at 2:39 PM, mallion said:

Could you tell me more about "Battle of Pennel Ford"?  Although mentioned in RQG shortly, there are many unclear part (though I may have overlooked it).

All your questions & more have been gloriously answered long ago in part 48 of the (Argrath the) Gwandor Saga!

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4 minutes ago, Christoph Kohring said:

All your questions & more have been gloriously answered long ago in part 48 of the (Argrath the) Gwandor Saga!

Gwandor Saga is ignorant of Samastina and a number of companions of Argrath, and has lots of player character Argraths. That's an interesting campaign concept, but not for everybody, and canonical sources published since suggest that the number of Argraths in Gwandor Saga is a bit too high.

The campaign log remains a good read and inspiration, but it clearly varies from what is forming as the Great Argrath Campaign.

 

Esrolian units (except for the professionals) tend to be somewhat less effective than those from more martial places like Sartar. In old Dragon Pass terms, 2-2-3 or even 2-1-3 would be adequate for hastily recruited local militia. Possibly some 1*-1-3 skirmishers, too.

(Dragon Pass stats read <combat> (asterisk indicates pre-battle skirmish ability) - <magic (resistance, also overall cohesiveness as a unit)> - <hex per day movement rate> - optionally <range of magical attack in hexes> with any value (even zero) indicating the ability to fight back at spirits rather than just being selected as casualty)

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Here's the official snippet from the RQ Campaign:

BATTLE OF PENNEL FORD - The Lunar army abandons its siege of Nochet when Harrek the Berserk and his Wolf Pirates ally with the defenders. At Pennel Ford, 8,000 Lunar soldiers face 4,000 Esrolians and Heortlings, 3000 Wolf Pirates, 2500 Caladralanders, and 2000 Western Barbarians. Despite the defection of the Western Barbarians, the Lunar Army is decisively defeated. 3000 Lunars and 500 Western Barbarians are killed or captured, against 1500 allies killed. The Lunar Army is harried all the way back to Dragon Pass; only 2500 Lunars return. 

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Here's the official snippet from the RQ Campaign:

BATTLE OF PENNEL FORD - The Lunar army abandons its siege of Nochet when Harrek the Berserk and his Wolf Pirates ally with the defenders. At Pennel Ford, 8,000 Lunar soldiers face 4,000 Esrolians and Heortlings, 3000 Wolf Pirates, 2500 Caladralanders, and 2000 Western Barbarians. Despite the defection of the Western Barbarians, the Lunar Army is decisively defeated. 3000 Lunars and 500 Western Barbarians are killed or captured, against 1500 allies killed. The Lunar Army is harried all the way back to Dragon Pass; only 2500 Lunars return. 

Would the Western Barbarians be Solanthi, some other Manirian Hill Orlanthi, or something else entirely?

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8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

the Western Barbarians be Solanthi, some other Manirian Hill Orlanthi, or something else entirely?

Yes the Solanthi led by Greymane and his sons, plus the Ditali. Probably not many from beyond those territories.

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