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Puckohue

Female Storm Khans?

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The cult description (p 305) doesn't explicitly state that Storm Khans of Storm Bull have to be male, but it does state that

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Storm Khans may marry only priestesses of Earth goddesses, although they may freely take concubines.

So, are there any female Storm Khans of Storm Bull in your Glorantha?

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20 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

The cult description (p 305) doesn't explicitly state that Storm Khans of Storm Bull have to be male, but it does state that

So, are there any female Storm Khans of Storm Bull in your Glorantha?

There's no requirements that a Storm Khan be male. They can only marry Earth priestesses, but may freely take concubines.

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In my Glorantha, there is a tension between Waha Khans, who have to be male, and Storm Khans, who can be female. Although Waha Khans accept that Storm Khans can use the title "Khan" and that there are female Storm Khans, some of them just don;t like the idea of a female Khan.

Also, Waha Khans respect tribal divisions and boundaries, but Storm Khans just trample all over them, having members of different Animal Nations as followers. They know that it is acceptable, but it is just another area where they have more freedom than Waha Khans and they just resent it.

On 11/8/2019 at 11:55 AM, Jeff said:

There's no requirements that a Storm Khan be male. They can only marry Earth priestesses, but may freely take concubines.

Does Priestesses mean they have to be female? Could a female Storm Khan marry a priest of Aurelion, for example? I am struggling to remember other male Earth deities other than Genert.

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36 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Does Priestesses mean they have to be female? Could a female Storm Khan marry a priest of Aurelion, for example? I am struggling to remember other male Earth deities other than Genert.

Ernalda can have male God-talkers, who may possibly fulfil the Priestess requirement.

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9 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Ernalda can have male God-talkers, who may possibly fulfil the Priestess requirement.

Thanks, that works for me.

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10 minutes ago, EricW said:

Lodril is a male Earth god.

Actually Lodril is not an Earth god. He is a Fire god who lives within the Earth. 

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59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually Lodril is not an Earth god. He is a Fire god who lives within the Earth. 

Ah but he has an Earth rune doesn't he? 😉

 

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2 hours ago, EricW said:

Ah but he has an Earth rune doesn't he? 😉

 

He has Fire, Disorder, and Life. His Fire Rune is without Light and so is sometimes called the Heat Rune.

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

He has Fire, Disorder, and Life. His Fire Rune is without Light and so is sometimes called the Heat Rune.

In Caladraland you can worship a Child of Lodril with either a Fire or Earth rune, unless that's changed in the BaGoG. Some sort of hybridisation timey-wimey stuff went on there, maybe God Learner stuff, not real sure, but the result is a set of twins who replaced Veskarthan after He was enslaved by the Only Old One. Or something.

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37 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

In Caladraland you can worship a Child of Lodril with either a Fire or Earth rune, unless that's changed in the BaGoG. Some sort of hybridisation timey-wimey stuff went on there, maybe God Learner stuff, not real sure, but the result is a set of twins who replaced Veskarthan after He was enslaved by the Only Old One. Or something.

Aurelion has the Earth Rune and Caladra has the Heat Rune (or maybe Fire, I'd prefer Heat). both are children of Lodril and are worshipped together as the Volcano Twins, but neither are Lodril. Female storm Khans could marry a Priest of Caladra & Aurelion, if he followed the Aurelion subcult.

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Aurelion has the Earth Rune and Caladra has the Heat Rune (or maybe Fire, I'd prefer Heat). both are children of Lodril and are worshipped together as the Volcano Twins, but neither are Lodril. Female storm Khans could marry a Priest of Caladra & Aurelion, if he followed the Aurelion subcult.

I think we aren't clear which god has which rune, but that Caladran men are usually Earth rune and Caladran women are Fire rune, which is the opposite of like, the rest of the gendered societies, from Pamaltela to Bindle.

Also, they are not exactly Lodril, but maybe they are still Lodril.

We see Lodril emanating Himself repeatedly in different lore: Vi Saru Daran, child of Ka Charal (Primolt), bears himself as Turos, and then again as His many sons, most of which are named Turos, in the E. At one point Vi Saru Daran, called Di Dala Daran dies to the water god Oronin during the Flood and the cone becomes the Oronin. He survived only as Paintman. We also see this in other places in lore with Lodril, I think because volcanoes go dormant and then reawaken, or new ones arrive.

It's possible the Greg Learners used a weakened Veskarthan to "make" this new hybridised Chthonic-Sky God pair. Caladra might just be Veskarthan, changed again, but still the same lava.

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4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, they are not exactly Lodril, but maybe they are still Lodril.

(This is how I look at Barntar & Vinga.)

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Greg Learners

This is my favorite new phrase!

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2 minutes ago, JonL said:

(This is how I look at Barntar & Vinga.)

but Barntar and Vinga aren't at all the same narrative thing. Vinga is Orlanth's female face and Barntar is Orlanth the Ploughman. Nobody done chopped up Orlanth or whatever. Those are just normal aspects. We know that Lodril's forms were ... how shall we say, adjusted by the God Learners. They played with the blue and yellow playdough and mashed em all up and for some reason when the Snap Back happened, it didn't happen there.

I mean, the God Learnerism got snapped. We know their creepy cult doctrines fell away and there was some kind of purgation of incest rites and the like, but whatever would have been Lodril's emanation normally is now firmly all mixed up with presumably the female Earth god.

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9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

In Caladraland you can worship a Child of Lodril with either a Fire or Earth rune, unless that's changed in the BaGoG. Some sort of hybridisation timey-wimey stuff went on there, maybe God Learner stuff, not real sure, but the result is a set of twins who replaced Veskarthan after He was enslaved by the Only Old One. Or something.

And in Kerofinela and Kethaela you can worship a child of Orlanth with the Earth Rune - Barntar. That doesn't give Orlanth earth powers, even though he has only a single grandmother - Gata - and hence is half Earth Rune by descent. (Orlanth's other half is Celestial. He does have quite a few of Sky powers and achievements, like his only major victory over the Chaos invasion.)

Yes, Lodril or his cognates have a myth about absorbing characteristics of the foe(s) they wrestled deep down in the Earth, which yielded him his Disorder powers and enough Earth characteristics to give himself and all of his offspring brass bones.

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14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I think we aren't clear which god has which rune, but that Caladran men are usually Earth rune and Caladran women are Fire rune, which is the opposite of like, the rest of the gendered societies, from Pamaltela to Bindle.

For me, I think we are clear.

Aurelion threw up the Breakwater in Pamaltela, to stop a flood of Chaos, this was him demonstrating Earth Powers. Caladra was always the fiery lava pool, the throwing of lava bombs and the lava stream, demonstrating her Fire Powers. When they met in Jrustela, they combined, recognising each other's Powers are being part of the Great Volcano, so Aurelion was the Bodty of the Volcano and Caladra was the Fiery Heart of the Volcano.

Personally, I am not at all keen on the idea that Caladra was originally an Earth Deity and Aurelion was a Fire Deity but they swapped powers. There is no evidence, as far as I can see , for that. Also, it is boring - Earth female and Fire Male, just like everywhere else. I like the idea of Earth Male and Fiery Female, as it is interesting and unusual.

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, they are not exactly Lodril, but maybe they are still Lodril.

We see Lodril emanating Himself repeatedly in different lore: Vi Saru Daran, child of Ka Charal (Primolt), bears himself as Turos, and then again as His many sons, most of which are named Turos, in the E. At one point Vi Saru Daran, called Di Dala Daran dies to the water god Oronin during the Flood and the cone becomes the Oronin. He survived only as Paintman. We also see this in other places in lore with Lodril, I think because volcanoes go dormant and then reawaken, or new ones arrive.

It's possible the Greg Learners used a weakened Veskarthan to "make" this new hybridised Chthonic-Sky God pair. Caladra might just be Veskarthan, changed again, but still the same lava.

It depends on how to you look at Deities in general.

There is a school of thought that Lodril is Caladra, Aurelion, or they are just Aspects of Lodril, in the same way that Barntar or Vinga are just Aspects of Orlanth. In the same way, Lodril is part of Aether Primolt and Orlanth is just part of Umath.

There is another school of thought that the children of deities are deities in their own right and have nothing to do with the powers of their parents.

I see it as somewhere in the middle. Deities Devolve, so Primal Deities are all about one thing, by and large, but they Devolve that One Thing to their children, who each concentrate on one Aspect of the One Thing, then they Devolve into children who concentrate on one Aspect of their parent's Aspect and so on. So, Umath devolved into Orlanth who devolved into Urain, or Umath devolved into Vadrus, who devolved into Valind, who devolved into Inora. Where things get complicated is when two deities merge and have children, so the devolving is more complex. So, Umath devolves into Orlanth, Ga devolves into Gata , who devolves into Ernalda, Orlanth/Ernalda devolve into Barntar, who is the combination of Male farmer and Female Earth, in particular Farmers working with the Earth to grow crops. Similarly, Aether Primolt devolves into Lodril, Ga devolves into Gata and Genert, who produce Esrola, Lodril/Esrola produce Caladra, who is Fire Within Earth, and Aurelion, who is Earth Containing Fire. You can trace the mythic origins all the way up the tree and say that Caladra is just part of Aether Primolt, or Barntar is just part of Umath. 

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53 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Aurelion threw up the Breakwater in Pamaltela, to stop a flood of Chaos, this was him demonstrating Earth Powers. Caladra was always the fiery lava pool, the throwing of lava bombs and the lava stream, demonstrating her Fire Powers. When they met in Jrustela, they combined, recognising each other's Powers are being part of the Great Volcano, so Aurelion was the Bodty of the Volcano and Caladra was the Fiery Heart of the Volcano.

what narrative is this in

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5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

what narrative is this in

The narrative is in Cults Compendium, of the MoonDesign Glorantha Classics reprints, and was in some issue of Different Worlds before.

The two of them met in (then still dry) Slontos under Meetinghall mountain (hill? not in the Guide), not in Jrustela (which was Aurelion's home base and where the Breakwater can be found on Gothalos island). Sorry, Simon, but you misremembered those details.

It isn't quite clear how much of that story was inserted by God Learner questing, and how much pre-existed before those twin priests finished their re-shaping of local myths in Jrustela, Slontos and Caladraland. Singling out Caladraland and Jrustela as twin children of Lodril and Gata is quite shady, to say the least, when there are dozens of sons of Lodril/Veskarthan surrounding Kethaela, including Doktados and Stormwalk.

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11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The two of them met in (then still dry) Slontos under Meetinghall mountain (hill? not in the Guide), not in Jrustela (which was Aurelion's home base and where the Breakwater can be found on Gothalos island). Sorry, Simon, but you misremembered those details.

Sorry, I was confusing the mountains that Lodril threw up in Pamaltela with Aurelion's Breakwater, conflating Aurelion with Lodril.

 

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

It isn't quite clear how much of that story was inserted by God Learner questing, and how much pre-existed before those twin priests finished their re-shaping of local myths in Jrustela, Slontos and Caladraland. Singling out Caladraland and Jrustela as twin children of Lodril and Gata is quite shady, to say the least, when there are dozens of sons of Lodril/Veskarthan surrounding Kethaela, including Doktados and Stormwalk.

What do we know about life and gods in Jrustela before the weird Malkioni got there? I have Middle Sea Empires but it's just about the weird Pilgrim-analogues.

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1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

What do we know about life and gods in Jrustela before the weird Malkioni got there? I have Middle Sea Empires but it's just about the weird Pilgrim-analogues.

Timinits and Mostali were native to there. Not sure if there were any other humans there from before.

EDIT: Oh, the Olodo, from Slontos/Maniria. I'm unclear on whether they were already Malkioni when they arrived, or whether they were Theyalans or some other kind of people.

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20 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Oh, the Olodo, from Slontos/Maniria. I'm unclear on whether they were already Malkioni when they arrived, or whether they were Theyalans or some other kind of people.

They were imported by the Waertagi, who also stuck the Theyalans in Pamalt, as a kind of experiment.

I don't think they were Theyalans. There's speculation they were Lodrilites. We know the name "Olodo" is Jrusteli for "Old People" and they were assimilated into the Jrustelan population when they weren't annihilated.

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9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Timinits and Mostali were native to there. Not sure if there were any other humans there from before.

There don't seem to have been Mostali there between the collapse of the Spike and the One Time Tunnel Collapse

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: Oh, the Olodo, from Slontos/Maniria. I'm unclear on whether they were already Malkioni when they arrived, or whether they were Theyalans or some other kind of people.

People in Maniria (and by extension Slontos? are assumed to have been Entruli or Caladrans.

The Caladrans are suppose to be the descendants of a few dozen survivors from the Solung caves near the Vent. As Silver Age awakened folk, they are certainly Theyalans.

We don't have any records of survival centers west of the Ditali.

We know that in the first century there was contact between Seshnela and "the East" via Waertagi transportation, with the serpent-leged grandson of Aignor the Trader bringing back a wife as mother of the next (and last, IIRC) Serpent King. That contact may well have been in Maniria.

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They were imported by the Waertagi, who also stuck the Theyalans in Pamalt, as a kind of experiment.

More as a cheap investment, IMO. One that paid for a while.

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't think they were Theyalans. There's speculation they were Lodrilites. We know the name "Olodo" is Jrusteli for "Old People" and they were assimilated into the Jrustelan population when they weren't annihilated.

There is no reason why they could not have been worshipers of Veskarthan/Lodril and Theyalans at the same time.

While there were riverine Waertagi in Oroninela, they don't appear to have been in the business of carrying off folk to Mostali/Vadeli ruled Jrustela.

Whatever it was that happened in Greater Darkness Jrustela eradicated the Mostali and whichever humans may have been there previously. Odds are that the spike crumbling onto that place may have done the job.

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4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

What do we know about life and gods in Jrustela before the weird Malkioni got there? I have Middle Sea Empires but it's just about the weird Pilgrim-analogues.

There are two sides of this question: what did the proto-olodo bring with them and how did what they found there change them? 

I'm resisting the urge to do original research here so have ripped out a lot of footnotes (no beard LARP) but my strongest window for the transplantation period is right before the doom of the coastal civilization circa 85-100 ST. If so, the archaic sources suggest that they were a barbarian belt people who would have recognized the name "Ernalda" as the goddess who married a local storm. ("Orlanth" comes to the party a little later.) They had boats and fishing. If they had a choice, they would have brought pigs. 

Once they got there they would have adapted as much of their agriculture as possible to the new religious landscape. Timinits would have helped, filling in for absent elves. I suspect the mysterious dreo are actually persistent dwarves, complicating the waertagi intent in transporting massive human populations toward Slon. Whether they acknowledged a god under the mountain back on the mainland, they definitely acquire one here. This god may evolve toward the lines we see in historic Caladra and become "husband protector" (submerging the storm they bring with them) or not. Local "Ernalda" would also contrast to the way that goddess develops on the mainland, so when their distant descendants see Nochet with Caladra looming on the horizon there's a strong sense of recombinant deja vu and an urge to experiment.

 

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