Not all heroes are created equal...

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There actually doesn't appear - to me - to be a good reason why one culture or occupation makes a person more or less experienced than any other...

 

Other than it being reality, and life sucks, you mean. I am sorry but I have no problems with the occupations and cultures being uneven (dare I say unbalanced). How they are uneven, now that’s more like it... The following is grist to the mill.

 

3 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

For example Hunter doesn't get Peaceful Cut. Give it +30% Peaceful Cut like Herder gets and the total looks more reasonable (although Peaceful Cut is primarily a flavour skill).

 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Skill selection for the professions is a huge headache, and looks like yet another rush job in the rules. Hunters not having Survival is probably my favorite.

 

...so though I have problems with the question from the original post (why skills are unbalanced in various occupations and homelands seems to be the main theme) I can see repurposing the idea to ask why these skills have been chosen and not others for an occupation or homeland to give this unbalance ... That’s a question I would have no qualms with. and I see it seems to be a popular question with others as well.

 

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Other than it being reality, and life sucks, you mean. I am sorry but I have no problems with the occupations and cultures being uneven (dare I say unbalanced). How they are uneven, now that’s more like it... The following is grist to the mill.

I think the biggest problem is that it feels completely arbitrary which cultures and occupations get more points. If there was some kind of method to it, it wouldn't be so bad (for instance, if Esrolian kids were all put through basic schooling or something). Similarly, is there any reason for nerfing fishermen?

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Of course it is intended,  Unless you are that much cleverer than all the folk at the Chaosium. 

It doesn't take much reading of RQG to tell that the rules editing is seriously sloppy in parts, to an extent that I think is actually not acceptable in a game like this. In many parts of the game "being more clever" would merely mean "actually checking it, once". You simply cannot argue that the rules are so good and precise that everything in them must be intentional and carefully considered!

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

Quote

As I said at the beginning of this post - I'm fine with imbalance - but I'd like to know whether it's intended. It's a bit odd to do that to starting characters...

Quote

Of course it is intended,  Unless you are that much cleverer than all the folk at the Chaosium. 

The imbalance is what I was referring to as “being intended”. So I was not arguing that the rules are so good and so precise... I was and am still arguing that they were intended to be unbalanced. I believe I have stated that in all these posts whether by intention or actually stating that. Anything else is, alas, inferred by the reader, which is totally okay, as I am willing to elucidate my points.

Now, as I implied in my last post,  I do not object to someone saying, “That unbalance sucks and this is the reason,” but if the reason is erroneous or misses the mark i will have to look at the comment and make my rebuttals based on what I feel is erroneous or missing rather than make a blanket "I agree" comment.  My point, yes there are problems with the game as is, but that is not very helpful, finding the reason it is problematic is better if one is to move forward.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

I think that the previous experience as provided in RQG is way too "career" oriented, same as the old Traveller method of acquiring skills. Even Germany with its many formal education paths for all manner of professions instills a rather broad set of background abilities beyond those piddly cultural things. Even when children are treated as young adults, with a strong measure of chores, there will still be opportunity to snatch up skills related to personal interests and local opportunities.

RuneQuest has dozens of skills, all of which are kept at "inept yokel" level in character creation using the rules as written. The character sheet is a wasteland worse than Prax, with a few oases of budding competence outside of weapon skills.

[Akhôrahil]

Even with a Healer character in the party, Treat Disease, Treat Poison and Alchemy are such wastelands in my game. And no-one has anything in Survival, with two herders and two hunters...

And let’s not even get started on stuff like foreign Customs, Elder Race Lore, Insight (Other Race), non-Homeland Area Lore, and stuff like that! (I gave them a pick of Ancient Friends and gave them bonuses to Lore and Customs for that (Elves, in this case), but otherwise...)

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are numerous skills

some are very important for play, some not

some are very specific, some are very large

so it is very difficult to see any balance or not between homeland, activity, cult ...

what do you need as an efficient warrior ? 3 - 4 fighting skill, and rolled hundred dice against them

what do you need as an efficient scribe ? (also when will you be efficient as scribe in a scenario ?) How many time you will roll the dice for scribe skill ? so don't care scribe have 100% more skills, these skills will not save the party

Would I define skills like RQG if I were a game designer ? no but I m not sure i would be better.

Would I define the starting bonus like RQG, definitly not (I would probably give x % to every body, and let them choose in a list - or several -)

But most important, Would I be able to create and edit a good RPG ? hum, that's just 20 years I have the idea...

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And no-one has anything in Survival, with two herders and two hunters...

what about the 25 and 10% of personal bonus at the end of the creation system. As a hunter / herder player I would spent a little bit here, and maybe cry because I need more bonus to charm and dance and sing skills

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about the 25 and 10% of personal bonus at the end of the creation system. As a hunter / herder player I would spent a little bit here, and maybe cry because I need more bonus to charm and dance and sing skills

With first time character creation and a skill list a mile long, it's easy to see how that slips past. Plus, it's not like there's not a lot of competition for those skill bonuses.

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what do you need as an efficient warrior ? 3 - 4 fighting skill, and rolled hundred dice against them

And Battle. And Ride if you're cavalry. Probably Orate and Insight if you're an officer. Scan and Listen if you want to avoid ambushes. Evaluate and Bargain when you unload your loot. First Aid might be wise. Area Lores and Customs and Languages. I could go on if you like...

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

And Battle. And Ride if you're cavalry. Probably Orate and Insight if you're an officer. Area Lores and Customs. I could go on if you like...

and there are in the carreer / cult / homeland lists, aren't they ?

my words were about balance

and after all, nothing force anyone to follow the rules. I decided that players decide the distribution of a global amount for characteristics (with game limitations) you can do the same for skills

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and after all, nothing force anyone to follow the rules. I decided that players decide the distribution of a global amount for characteristics (with game limitations) you can do the same for skills

You can't excuse the rules by saying you can disregard them. I mean you can, but that doesn't improve the actual, printed rules. They are what they are.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

42 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about the 25 and 10% of personal bonus at the end of the creation system. As a hunter / herder player I would spent a little bit here, and maybe cry because I need more bonus to charm and dance and sing skills

It seems weird for skills that seem like an innate part of being a hunter to be required to be personal skills.

Like, you have a Nochet Scribe and a Grazelander Hunter out in the wilderness, and they've got the same skill at survival -- well actually since scribes are more likely to have a higher Intelligence score, they're more likely to have a better characteristic bonus to the skill.

 

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Other than it being reality, and life sucks, you mean. I am sorry but I have no problems with the occupations and cultures being uneven (dare I say unbalanced). How they are uneven, now that’s more like it... The following is grist to the mill

I'd need you to make the case I'd you want that to be remotely plausible...

You're suggesting different cultures and occupations make you generally more skilled overall.

I'd suggest fairly evenly across the board, but some significantly more specialised.

This is especially true at the culture level (which, but it's very nature, is *extremely* generic).

Now, if there was a specific education system in place for some, but not for others, you may have a point. But I don't think much of Glorantha has that - especially in the areas we're talking about.

If we do look at the marble, and compare apples to apples, I don't think the percentages are *that* different. (We can easily compare apples to oranges though... Modern civilisation and education, to very primitive hunter-gatherer cultures. Even then, is the average person more skilled? Put them on the land to fend for themselves and see.. )

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

You can't excuse the rules by saying you can disregard them. I mean you can, but that doesn't improve the actual, printed rules. They are what they are.

I don't excuse rules, rules are just words. My position is more to 'excuse' people behind the rules when issues don't really impact the game.

My position is that some words used in this thread (or Elmal for example) are too hard for people. I know I am supersensitive, I may overinterpret it, but I am like I am, my power is my curse. Sorry for that.

And again, if there is an issue, you (not you = Akhôril but you = everybody) can fix it. After all GM change things in official scenario to enjoy their players and themselves. The main goal of RQG should be enjoy people.

I see three issues in character generation :

• characteristic => I decided to not roll dices
• base weapon skill ==> too much weapons, I m thinking for next campaign to change it by pick 2 (or 3) weapons/shields in the list and add +20
• scholar career  skills (philosopher, scribe) ==> I feel it is unbalanced BUT because it is not enough. I m not sure today, I have some tests to do but I feel it is very (too ?) easy to create a weapon master and not so easy (impossible ?) to create a "doctor of science" (aka 2 - 3 skills at 90% in custom, knowledge, reading or sorcery)

but that my view. And I will adapt it with my players feelings too (not discussing the rules, but knowing what they like). If I initiate my kids to glorantha, I know that there is no issue because Urox warrior 1 and Urox warrior 2 don't care too much the world (until they are illuminates, but it is another story)

So I don't care if my house rules are the best one or not, as long as they are good for my table. I like to be nicely challenged, I like to learn more.

Each play table goals vary. That is normal. There is no truth so there is no need to be hard against chaosium or anyone.

 

[davecake]

Hunter is a particular sore point with one of players who is a hunter.

Hunters are very skill based characters - to be able to do the things you expect of a hunter requires a lot of skills. Part of this is it is a profession that naturally relies heavily on skill, part of it is the way skills are spilt up, a lot of them are useful outside hunting in a broader context so are separate skills in the game system. 
so, hunters need more skills, but get the least of any profession. 

Add to that that hunters get NO ability is many skills you would expect hunters to have. They can’t stalk prey - they have no Move Quietly. They can’t butcher their catch (Craft:butchery/Peaceful Cut). They can’t set snares or traps (Devise). 
 

and to add to that - the Hunter cults can be *very* odd. Found child is ok but limited, but Odayla and Yinkin are weird, often resulting in characters having no ability in skills they need Odayla combat magic turns them into bear form in which they need unarmed combat skills (which they have no chance to obtain) and can’t use their primary missile skill, Yinkin has no Peaceful Cut, Yelm is strangely suggested as a hunter cult - and nothing about it grants useful hunter skills. Plus Odayla and Yinkin are especially confusing for associated cults - they are both said to be able to ‘participate in the Great Hunt’ but no indication what it means (for Foundchild, it’s how they become Master Hunters, but for others? Who know 🤷‍♂️) and are said to be connected to Ancestor Worship but Daka Fal is Man Rune that is opposed to the Beast Rune. Very confusing. 

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Hunter is a particular sore point with one of players who is a hunter.

Hunters are very skill based characters - to be able to do the things you expect of a hunter requires a lot of skills. Part of this is it is a profession that naturally relies heavily on skill, part of it is the way skills are spilt up, a lot of them are useful outside hunting in a broader context so are separate skills in the game system. 
so, hunters need more skills, but get the least of any profession. 

Add to that that hunters get NO ability is many skills you would expect hunters to have. They can’t stalk prey - they have no Move Quietly. They can’t butcher their catch (Craft:butchery/Peaceful Cut). They can’t set snares or traps (Devise). 
 

and to add to that - the Hunter cults can be *very* odd. Found child is ok but limited, but Odayla and Yinkin are weird, often resulting in characters having no ability in skills they need Odayla combat magic turns them into bear form in which they need unarmed combat skills (which they have no chance to obtain) and can’t use their primary missile skill, Yinkin has no Peaceful Cut, Yelm is strangely suggested as a hunter cult - and nothing about it grants useful hunter skills. Plus Odayla and Yinkin are especially confusing for associated cults - they are both said to be able to ‘participate in the Great Hunt’ but no indication what it means (for Foundchild, it’s how they become Master Hunters, but for others? Who know 🤷‍♂️) and are said to be connected to Ancestor Worship but Daka Fal is Man Rune that is opposed to the Beast Rune. Very confusing. 

It's stuff like this that makes me think the design team were much more focused of mythos and background, than game play and balance.

Not entirely a bad thing, but can sometimes lead to frustrations.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

It's stuff like this that makes me think the design team were much more focused of mythos and background, than game play and balance.

It's not just you thinking this...

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

It's stuff like this that makes me think the design team were much more focused of mythos and background, than game play and balance.

Not entirely a bad thing, but can sometimes lead to frustrations.

I mean I'd have no issue with that, if the background part worked better.

[Jon Hunter]

if anyone is really frustrated with the system i can point you to this alternative

http://www.backtobalazar.com/extended-character-professions-and-previous-experience-for-runequest-glorantha/
 

harder work but i think a better system, but more freedom so you can get highly min maxed characters.

[Lordabdul]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

and to add to that - the Hunter cults can be *very* odd.

Totally agree. I find Odayla and Yinkin to be both strangely weak. I'm fine with them having poor magic, but it would be nice if the cult write-up made it up in the form of more skill points.

I hadn't paid too much attention to the Hunter occupation but now that I have, yeah, I think it is ripe for an errata or correction.

19 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

It's stuff like this that makes me think the design team were much more focused of mythos and background, than game play and balance.

I also raised this concern a couple times on other threads. I think the authors are great world-builders and narrators, but they really need a "rules engineer" on staff, someone that can go deep in probabilities and Excel spreadsheets and triple checking rules wording and tables and so on. I've got a theory that this role was previously filled by people like Steve Perrin and Sandy Petersen, but in reality I have zero idea who does what exactly so the Chaosium staff might have to forgive me if I assign credit where it isn't due...

One thing to remember however is that we're not supposed to have very high skill scores in most skills. A character would have a couple-to-a-handful skills at 70% or more, which represent their main occupation skills, but all the rest is probably below 50%. As such, I can generally get a decent starting character with the cult and personal skill points. Re-balancing homeland bonuses and fixing occupational skill lists (like the Hunter's) seem like a very good thing to crowdsource here on the forum (let's do that!), but listing all the skills a character "should" have and getting upset because they only have 15% in it at best is missing the point IMHO. These are skills a character can't use effectively in a stressful or challenging situation, because he has only a superficial knowledge. When the skill is used, it's probably in a "best conditions" scenario, where I generally don't ask for a roll, or give a +40% or more. A straight skill roll is only for "under pressure" somehow.

Edited February 7, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

. A straight skill roll is only for "under pressure" somehow.

Can you perform under pressure?

 

No, but I can hum Bohemian Rhapsody...

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Totally agree. I find Odayla and Yinkin to be both strangely weak. I'm fine with them having poor magic, but it would be nice if the cult write-up made it up in the form of more skill points.

We were despairing a bit about Yinkin, because unlike a lot of other cults with bad magic, it doesn't even have dispel (which you can usually use as a good spell in more magical encounters). Then we saw that Yinkin gets Shield from Orlanth, and then it's all good as far as combat is concerned.

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I also raised this concern a couple times on other threads. I think the authors are great world-builders and narrators, but they really need a "rules engineer" on staff, someone that can go deep in probabilities and Excel spreadsheets and triple checking rules wording and tables and so on. I've got a theory that this role was previously filled by people like Steve Perrin and Sandy Petersen, but in reality I have zero idea who does what exactly so the Chaosium staff might have to forgive me if I assign credit where it isn't due...

Yeah, it's perfectly obvious that even getting non-contradictory rules wasn't a priority. When priorities clash and time is running out, someone is needed to stand up for the rules sections. By every indication, Chaosium doesn't have that guy for RuneQuest, and it's desperately needed.

But don't discount Greg for rules design! He was unbelievably inventive and ahead of his time, and well over thirty years later, no-one has made a BRP game to match Pendragon when it comes to rules design. For people like me who can appreciate a rules engine all on its own, Pendragon's is just gorgeous.

Personally, I also think Chaosium should take a step or two back from fetishizing the RQ2 rules. Like I said, they were great... forty years ago. Since then, we've have decades of play experience, design experience, RPG theory, and so on, and even if your goal is to make a game that feels like RQ2, that can be achieved much better using modern design sensibilities than by just letting the game be as RQ2-like as possible. You don't have to keep the bad parts. RQG is in many ways an OSR game only for RQ, and there's a lot to be learned from other OSR games with how they achieve a retro play experience using modern rules thinking. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Mugen]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Personally, I also think Chaosium should take a step or two back from fetishizing the RQ2 rules. Like I said, they were great... forty years ago. Since then, we've have decades of play experience, design experience, RPG theory, and so on, and even if your goal is to make a game that feels like RQ2, that can be achieved much better using modern design sensibilities than by just letting the game be as RQ2-like as possible. You don't have to keep the bad parts. RQG is in many ways an OSR game only for RQ, and there's a lot to be learned from other OSR games with how they achieve a retro play experience using modern rules thinking. 

Amen.

From what I understand, they only really had two possibilities in mind : either use RuneQuest 2 or RuneQuest 6 (now Mythras) as a basis, and didn't consider any other option. And they chose RQ2 because the other one was just too counter-intuitive for their playtesters (which were not RQ2 grognards).

As much as I love Mythras, I would have loved that RQG had envisioned a third option.

[davecake]

On 2/7/2020 at 2:19 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, one thing RQG does "get right" is that even the "wasteland" skills are more usable with augments. 

Or for magic skills, by taking a huge amount of time. Often in RQG there seem to be times when rules that seem to be very harsh are made workable by ‘of course, people usually take an entire day to do this, getting +50’. Not sure I like relying on it.