Storm Bull Cult, Not Suicide Pact?

[Akhôrahil]

The rulebook seems to say that:

1. A Storm Bull cultis must seek out Chaos.
2. And must then fight it.
3. And may not retreat.

But what happens when you have a known, super-dangerous Chaos nest reasonably near, such as Dorastor, Snakepipe Hollow, or some places in Prax and the Wastes? By a legalistic reading, it would seem that you have to go there and fight until you get killed, but clearly, we have Storm Bull cultists who have survived for more than a few weeks, so this can't be how it's actually treated? What kind of praxis has the Storm Bull cult formed in order to make sure that everyone does not, in fact, have to go and get themselves killed at the nearest Chaos nest right away?

Pragmatic? "Yes, you could go there, but that reduces the amount of Chaos you can kill in a lifetime, and you're allowed to take that into consideration."

Closeness principle? "Yes, in principle you should go there, but there is other Chaos, closer at hand. Handle that first!"

First come, first serve principle? "If we ran out of other Chaos, we would go there. But as long as we're already busy with other Chaos, that's a good reason not to go on a different mission."

Utility? "Yes, that place should die. But people stay away from it when they can anyway, and you help them a lot better by fighting the Chaos that actually threatens them immediately."

All of these seem slightly weaselly, but on the other hand, we clearly have a case of memetic evolution here - the people who do go to get killed in Dorastor don't get to interpret the cult rules in the future! The rules are written by the people who didn't already get themselves killed. 

(Note that Wind-Lords have only somewhat less onerous rules to live by, as they also have to seek out and fight Chaos but do get to be smart about it , so parts of this goes for them as well.) 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Austin]

Migraine Principle: Anytime I get a headache via Sense Chaos, I gotta hunt it down and kill it.

That's how it is in my Glorantha, anyway.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would say

you cannot not flee, you have to finish the fight

you cannot ignore what you see, you have to destroy it

but if there is no fight or nothing to see... you can prepare expedition with others to destroy bigger chaos

 

But you gain One point: I understand now why stormbullers are so often drunk, it is just to avoid any answer to your question !

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But you gain One point: I understand now why stormbullers are so often drunk, it is just to avoid any answer to your question !

“Theologically speaking, shouldn’t we go to Snakepipe Hollow?”

”Not sure, let’s consider it over a drink.”

*next morning* “Not sure what we talked about last night, but it can’t have been that important.”

[Dissolv]

This cult, like Humakt, is prone to be suicidal.  Depending on how far deep the character is in alignment with the cult, is how "drawn" they should be toward fight at any cost.  A lay member, not really.  An initiate should be making very sensible judgments with their own limitations firmly in mind.  After the Rune level though, and particularly if a few heroquests are under the belt, I can totally see reason and tactics becoming somewhat secondary to the drive to engage and fight!  Sometimes this should stretch the limits and should always have the less combat oriented players sweating bullets.

But I also always try to make sure that the other PCs and NPCs are very supportive of the Storm Bulls anti-chaos activities, player or not.  Donations of armor, weapons, food, shelter, lesser warriors in support, healing, curing, training, all those things that the more "greedy" questers might have to pay for, the Storm Bulls (who are known to be locally active against the chaos foe) get for free.  That's mythic -- Storm Bull would not have won without a ton of aid -- and also pretty realistic as well.   If these guys are all killed off locally by some chaos horror, then it's likely coming for the other, less prepared types next, and that's not pretty.   

I do figure that the big chaos pits will sometimes have larger bands of Storm Bulls "having a go" at them, but without a hero, they certainly aren't going to clean up Snakepipe Hollow or some other hell hole.  Their god may not approve of their strategic withdrawals, but 90% of them are likely initiates, and when the pow and rune points are gone, it's time to head back.

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Donations of armor, weapons, food, shelter, lesser warriors in support, healing, curing, training

You forgot the most important thing - beer!

In my game, you call on the Storm Bulls when their help is worth it to get all your beer consumed, the furniture broken, and the servant girl impregnated.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Dissolv]

That's the standard way of thinking of them.  But send some unsupported initiates of any stripe into somewhere nasty, and you will run out of them quick enough.  

By my way of thinking this is a very specialized cult with very few followers compared to say, Barntar the plowman.  It is great for PC adventurers, but not really something you steer your eldest son towards.  "Learn to manage the cows, son.  It's all about the cows!"   Sure some travel around, maybe show up in response to a local rumor of Chaos foes, but again, once they fall into a nasty pit of Scorpion men with a couple of Rune level opponents, they aren't making it to another Sacred Time.

So the community helps them -- they have to-- but may also keep them at arms reach, and is probably happy both when they solve the problem and when they wander off.  Replacing armor damaged by acid, an axe lost falling down a pit, three vials of scorpion antidote, and half the local healer priest(ess) healing magic for a season is a small price to pay for the service.  I don't see how they can do it without frequent support like that and not be wiped out -- which is very similar to the Storm Bull vs. Wakboth myth, so I ran with it.  And of course, they are portrayed that you don't want them around generally, so why would one be present the next time a chaos problem oozes around?   So you put the word out and support the next one that wanders over to help out the community.   No community support, then either no Storm Bull worshiper shows up, or one shows up and he isn't enough, and gets killed.   Then it's YOUR problem.  

This kind of dovetails with the Humakt discussions.  I see the Humakt cult as the opposite from Storm Bull in community opinions in a lot of ways.  The Humakti is accepted, but feared.  Services like training, weapon purchasing, etc., are more transactional , and they are, other than worshiping death (/shiver) a normal and accepted part of the community.  Storm Bulls on the other hand require a lot of care and feeding from the community leaders (again, by my way of thinking), but aren't really accepted as community members, unless through blood ties or such.  Even then they have a different calling and are likely not to stick around in times of peace and prosperity like the Humakti is.  The Humakti has a job -- bodyguard, Thegn, soldier, war leader, sword trainer.  The Storm Bull is kind of a bum.  A Bronze Age biker who tools around looking for trouble.  He's more than willing to tackle the worst of the worst, but expects room and board and more in return.  

Just something that I have started emphasizing in my current take on Glorantha.

[Akhôrahil]

I wonder what the mortality rate in the Storm Bull cult is. The very very most violent societies on Earth - like the Yanomamo - have a yearly male violent death rate of something like 5%, and basically every adult male dies a violent death.

I'm thinking 5-10% yearly risk of violent death in the Storm Bull cult?

[g33k]

I think there is also some realization that -- for some of the larger and more-dangerous Chaos targets (such as Snakepipe Hollow) -- it's perfectly acceptable and expected to take a while gathering allies & such.

Just as you'd pause to pick up your weapon: you pause to gather your allies.

You're still going to attack as soon as you can; you just want to drive your blow home and slay the chaos.

Edited February 19, 2020 by g33k

[Dissolv]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder what the mortality rate in the Storm Bull cult is. The very very most violent societies on Earth - like the Yanomamo - have a yearly male violent death rate of something like 5%, and basically every adult male dies a violent death.

I'm thinking 5-10% yearly risk of violent death in the Storm Bull cult?

This is the crux of the matter.  If the cult is small, and killed off quickly, I don't see how you can get many Storm Bull worshipers at all.  The problem might be compounded if they gather together into a band to handle the big chaos pits.   If this is the case, then you just won't see many of them around at all.  

This is why I have been very generous lately with help from strangers.  Not just for being Storm Bull, but actually going after the slime and dealing with whatever they can manage.  

[Lordabdul]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But what happens when you have a known, super-dangerous Chaos nest reasonably near, such as Dorastor, Snakepipe Hollow, or some places in Prax and the Wastes? By a legalistic reading, it would seem that you have to go there and fight until you get killed, but clearly, we have Storm Bull cultists who have survived for more than a few weeks, so this can't be how it's actually treated? What kind of praxis has the Storm Bull cult formed in order to make sure that everyone does not, in fact, have to go and get themselves killed at the nearest Chaos nest right away?

IMHO you're reading a bit too much into the Storm Bull cult requirements -- it's a "you have to deal with it" kind of thing, not a "you can't go to sleep until it's dead" kind of thing.

Any lay member of Storm Bull has to report any Chaotic activity, or rumour thereof. An initiate (or higher up) would show up and investigate themselves. If it's a small thing, that Storm Bull person will have to deal with it. It might take an hour (go there, kill the small Broo band, come back and have a drink), but it might take a few days or even a few weeks (scout the hills, spend a few days on and off exploring the caves and killing various things, send for reinforcements, etc.). Other "missions" might take years or be never-ending. I imagine that there are a couple of big Storm Bull temples around Snakepipe Hollow and it's their full time job to live there and deal with the problem. They might make progress over time, but they might not. They won't go away until that Chaos stench is gone, but they won't spend their whole days down there until they drop of fatigue or get killed either. They are very much aware that this is a "War Against Chaos" situation, and not a simple skirmish or battle. Some initiates might have been posted there for years, while other have come and gone, going to fight Chaos elsewhere as the cult moves resources here and there, or as they have some other leads they want to follow-up on. These people leaving Snakepipe Hollow are not violating their vows, since there are 20 other berserkers keeping watch.

The Storm Bull cultists are just people who make a strong vow to fight Chaos and never flinch when faced against it. There's no vow about how fast you have to kill it, or whether it's OK to take a break and come back later. In some ways it's similar to someone who takes a vow of, say, fighting climate change or ending child hunger. They're not going to necessarily do it 24/7, they will use their organization's resources to move between hot zones and easier-to-deal-with areas, they will use long term tactics and ask for help, etc. Heck, maybe Storm Bullies even have conventions, with Powerpoint presentations about Broo-baiting tactics!

Edited February 20, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Heck, maybe Storm Bullies even have conventions, with Powerpoint presentations about Broo-baiting tactics!

Only the ones with Illusory Sight do that.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By a legalistic reading, it would seem that you have to go there and fight until you get killed, but clearly, we have Storm Bull cultists who have survived for more than a few weeks, so this can't be how it's actually treated?

 

"What the... You went into the Hollow and didn't die??? You're a failure!!!"

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

"What the... You went into the Hollow and didn't die??? You're a failure!!!"

The stories of the surviving kamikaze pilots were quite interesting, involving very mixed public reactions. 

[soltakss]

On 2/19/2020 at 5:03 PM, Akhôrahil said:

The rulebook seems to say that:

1. A Storm Bull cultis must seek out Chaos.
2. And must then fight it.
3. And may not retreat.

But what happens when you have a known, super-dangerous Chaos nest reasonably near, such as Dorastor, Snakepipe Hollow, or some places in Prax and the Wastes? By a legalistic reading, it would seem that you have to go there and fight until you get killed, but clearly, we have Storm Bull cultists who have survived for more than a few weeks, so this can't be how it's actually treated? What kind of praxis has the Storm Bull cult formed in order to make sure that everyone does not, in fact, have to go and get themselves killed at the nearest Chaos nest right away?

RQ2 said that the Storm Buller must go back to a Temple and gather a group of stringer storm bulls to fight the Chaos. Presumably the same applies in RQG.

Also, Storm Bull provides the Face Chaos spell, so this assumes that not all storm Bullers have to face chaos, unless the spell is for other folk.

In my Glorantha, the Storm Bull cultists gather at Bull Hold in the Footprint and at a similar place near Glorantha, then they amass an army of several thousand Storm Bull cultists and decide to march into the Chaos Nest to destroy it. Not many come back. The stories of what happened deter Storm Bull cultists from doing the same for a whole generation, then the process is repeated.

 

[Akhôrahil]

28 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Also, Storm Bull provides the Face Chaos spell, so this assumes that not all storm Bullers have to face chaos, unless the spell is for other folk.

RQG states that Storm Bulls don’t need it and never retreat anyway, and that it’s for others.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQG states that Storm Bulls don’t need it and never retreat anyway, and that it’s for others.

Fair enough. I have played many a Storm Bull that has retreated from some gross Chaos monster, to then go to the nearest Storm Bull Temple and lead a band of warriors against it.

[Shiningbrow]

There's a touch of ambiguity in Face Chaos...

"When cast upon a single fighter, that person stands their ground and fights any Chaotic foe they face, even if they would have ordinarily chosen to flee."

 

What about tactical withdrawals to regroup, get reinforcements, etc? It's not actually "fleeing".

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's a touch of ambiguity in Face Chaos...

"When cast upon a single fighter, that person stands their ground and fights any Chaotic foe they face, even if they would have ordinarily chosen to flee."

 

What about tactical withdrawals to regroup, get reinforcements, etc? It's not actually "fleeing".

It says they stand their ground, period. Even instead of fleeing.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What about tactical withdrawals to regroup, get reinforcements, etc? It's not actually "fleeing".

It says they stand their ground, period. Even instead of fleeing.

We used to call it Tactical Advancement, or Advancing in the opposite direction.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It says they stand their ground, period. Even instead of fleeing.

Going by that literal interpretation then, you couldn't advance either... You just stand there, where you were first affected by the spell.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Going by that literal interpretation then, you couldn't advance either... You just stand there, where you were first affected by the spell.

”Stand your ground” doesn’t mean ”stay in place”, 🙂 It likely true that Face Chaos doesn’t force you to advance, though.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It likely true that Face Chaos doesn’t force you to advance, though.

Just keep your face towards it! And back away very, very slowly. 

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Just keep your face towards it! And back away very, very slowly. 

Bring a small feral broo in a cage far to the rear so that you're allowed to charge the Chaos in that direction.

[Dissolv]

I think this is being a bit literal here.  "Stand your ground" doesn't mean that they lose free will.  This is noted nowhere else other than a spell description (likely to emphasize that this isn't to be case on themselves, but on the well meaning outsiders that need fortified.  There is no mechanic for running away, the players and GM are clearly allowed to make those decisions on an ad hoc basis.)

The main problem with running away is that Storm Bull may get hacked off and send spirits of retribution.   It's like any other cult requirement, except it's pretty gnarly.   The real question is how does Storm Bull feel about his followers that day.  I definitely know that some times the players cut and run when I think they still had a shot -- so Storm Bull might be a little extra hacked off that day.  Other times, they are facing something nigh-unbeatable.  Left hand of the devil or some thing worse.   There is no way that the any human should be divinely forced to stay and die.  Although they will great glory in the hereafter if they do........

And if brought back, they might be sporting a reward from the Bull himself.

That's how I run it.