Are all spells already in existence?

[Shiningbrow]

I've thought about it previously, and it's tangentially arisen...

If a sorcerer (easiest example to use) wants a new (perhaps slightly altered), does the spell already exist in Glorantha? Or will they be forced to always research it themselves?

E.g., it seems silly to me to think that no-one has come up with non-Active versions for all of the current spells the require them. Or touch/ranged versions, so those Self spells (Logician) can be given to someone else (with the concentration requirement as well, obviously!)

This is a YGMV question, not a rules question.... 

[Richard S.]

It depends entirely on your Glorantha. I'm 99.99999% sure that there's more magic out there to discover, from all disciplines.

[davecake]

For sorcery, no. Creating new spells is possible. And master sorcerers may create new spells quite often. 

But it might be very hard to track it down, and a spell that is obviously better without an obvious drawback probably isn't possible. 

For other types of magic - well, you can heroquest to create something new, but it's difficult and unreliable. 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

For sorcery, no. Creating new spells is possible. And master sorcerers may create new spells quite often.  

Agree - it's so flexible that you can design new spells from first principles. 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

For other types of magic - well, you can heroquest to create something new, but it's difficult and unreliable. 

Also, it's very likely that Spirit Cults can produce unique (but frequently corner-case or otherwise not overwhelmingly strong) Rune Magic that's not in the book - this has always been their shtick. 

The occasional rare spirit might even carry unique Spirit Magic.

In addition, some magics come with a qualifier, like Summon (Entity) or Detect (Substance).  Even if you don't come up with a completely new spell, some spirit may have an unusual selection, like Detect Snot or Summon Squirrels 12. 

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

But it might be very hard to track it down, and a spell that is obviously better without an obvious drawback probably isn't possible. 

I'm sure that there are bad spells out there, inefficient and flawed spells. Some of them might be in the rulebook, depending on your taste. Therefore I think that it is entirely possible to take a sub-optimal spell and improve it and come up with something that is objectively better and not in any way worse, but it probably isn't common.

In other words I don't think there is any kind of auto-balancing process in Gloranthan magic that ensures that all spells come out equal. Moonfire is so much more powerful than any other spell, for instance.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm sure that there are bad spells out there, inefficient and flawed spells. Some of them might be in the rulebook, depending on your taste. Therefore I think that it is entirely possible to take a sub-optimal spell and improve it and come up with something that is objectively better and not in any way worse, but it probably isn't common.

I just assume that, in the last millenia or more, someone has usually already done that, probably multiple times, and the one in the rulesbook IS that improved spell. Now, if you want to make a better spell, you have to notably better than the preceding sorcerers who optimised it, and you probably aren't (especially as one of them may have been Zzabur).

And if you are a more capable sorcerer, you are probably going to have to something more remarkable than just yet another redesign - discover a secret, get inspiration from a powerful magical being, do a heroquest for magical inspiration, complete major research project, and so on. Don't give your players a bonus just because they ask, make them work for it - and if they do do something that great, they can probably achieve something much more exciting than a mildly improved spell. 

That said, it is probably pretty easy to make a new version of a spell that suits them more, that has an advantage that they care about and a disadvantage they don't. Its seldom worth the bother if they want to use it outside a ritual context, though, given it starts at a very small skill. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, davecake said:

I just assume that, in the last millenia or more, someone has usually already done that, probably multiple times, and the one in the rulesbook IS that improved spell. Now, if you want to make a better spell, you have to notably better than the preceding sorcerers who optimised it, and you probably aren't (especially as one of them may have been Zzabur).

On the other hand, a lot of them wouldn't have spread the knowledge around, only spread it within their close circle, or just the spell not having survived the ravages of time.

3 minutes ago, davecake said:

And if you are a more capable sorcerer, you are probably going to have to something more remarkable than just yet another redesign - discover a secret, get inspiration from a powerful magical being, do a heroquest for magical inspiration, complete major research project, and so on. Don't give your players a bonus just because they ask, make them work for it - and if they do do something that great, they can probably achieve something much more exciting than a mildly improved spell. 

That said, it is probably pretty easy to make a new version of a spell that suits them more, that has an advantage that they care about and a disadvantage they don't. Its seldom worth the bother if they want to use it outside a ritual context, though, given it starts at a very small skill. 

It would also be easy to say that this spell research consumes a lot of that very valuable resource for adventurers - time.

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the other hand, a lot of them wouldn't have spread the knowledge around, only spread it within their close circle, or just the spell not having survived the ravages of time.

Yes, but not likely if it is a spell known to a large tradition of sorcerers who actively cooperate. Which is almost all of them in Glorantha.

But if it is an obscure spell in an unpopular area of sorcery, sure. 

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It would also be easy to say that this spell research consumes a lot of that very valuable resource for adventurers - time.

Yes. Players redesigning spells trying to get a marginal advantage isn't going to make the much fun for literally anyone - at least encourage them to make something new and original. 

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

Yes, but not likely if it is a spell known to a large tradition of sorcerers who actively cooperate. Which is almost all of them in Glorantha.

I'm not sure that's true... In fact, I would have thought the opposite - they all keep their secrets to themselves. And thus, technique-wise, most spells that do the same thing are actually cast via a different formula.

Even in the cult of the god of knowledge, there are cliques and factions groups with opposing values.

[Jeff]

Keep in mind that spell knowledge has largely had to rebuild several times. Much knowledge of Brithini lore was lost in the First Age (except among the immortal Brithini themselves), especially during the Gbaji Wars. Collections of God Learner spells were destroyed and their texts burnt following the catastrophes of the late Second Age. 

In the Third Age, the Malkioni had to rebuild from a few centers that survived the destruction of the Middle Sea Empire. A spell here, a collection of spells there - a post-apocalyptic scenario like A Canticle for Leibowitz. The Rokari School oversee much of this restoration, but also work to restrain the hubris of sorcerers and guide them to the general goodwill. This process would have been slow, with many setbacks.

I suspect only a fraction of the spells known in the late Second Age are known now, although thanks to the Opening, knowledge is being shared again. Lhankor Mhy is collecting knowledge and others are making use of it. Just in time for the Hero Wars! 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

I just assume that, in the last millenia or more, someone has usually already done that, probably multiple times, and the one in the rulesbook IS that improved spell. Now, if you want to make a better spell, you have to notably better than the preceding sorcerers who optimised it, and you probably aren't (especially as one of them may have been Zzabur).

I wouldn't. I don't assume that the weapons in the equipment chapter are the finest crafted weapons in all of Glorantha, that cannot be bettered by the most skilled smiths without some kind of drawback. I would assume that the spells in the rulebook are the ones that are commonly available to characters, and are a mixed bag of good, average, and sub-optimal spells that a local temple or library might have access to. The best versions are well-guarded secrets of the sects that discovered or acquired them.

Edited February 25, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't assume that the weapons in the equipment chapter are the finest crafted weapons in all of Glorantha, that cannot be bettered by the most skilled smiths without some kind of drawback.

yes, but they are individually crafted items. You don't assume the guys the next city over know the secret of making swords that do an extra point of damage but don't share it with anyone, or that a PC can learn how to make better swords easily, do you? 

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The best versions are well-guarded secrets of the sects that discovered or acquired them.

Sects share among there members, that will include player characters. Sects are big, and share knowledge amongst themselves, and often between themselves  - if not peacefully, in centuries of warfare most spell knowledge will have been shared. If you think that, eg, the Rokari as a whole are a bunch of incompetents have haven't optimised the design of the common spells, but a random PC can, I won't convince you otherwise, but it seems a very weird assumption to make. 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

f you think that, eg, the Rokari as a whole are a bunch of incompetents have haven't optimised the design of the common spells, but a random PC can, I won't convince you otherwise, but it seems a very weird assumption to make. 

Change one of the sacred spells passed down in the holy texts!? That sounds a lot like blasphemy!

(Hrestoli on the other hand...)

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

yes, but they are individually crafted items. You don't assume the guys the next city over know the secret of making swords that do an extra point of damage but don't share it with anyone, or that a PC can learn how to make better swords easily, do you? 

Maybe the Goodsword clan make good swords. That would be entirely unsurprising to me.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

If you think that, eg, the Rokari as a whole are a bunch of incompetents have haven't optimised the design of the common spells, but a random PC can, I won't convince you otherwise, but it seems a very weird assumption to make. 

I agree, that would be a weird assumption, I don't know why you think I would make it. But a Lankhor Mhy PC isn't going to have access to a Rokari optimised spell. I would not expect Rokari optimised spells to be in the core rulebook.

Edited February 25, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I wouldn't. I don't assume that the weapons in the equipment chapter are the finest crafted weapons in all of Glorantha, that cannot be bettered by the most skilled smiths without some kind of drawback. I would assume that the spells in the rulebook are the ones that are commonly available to characters, and are a mixed bag of good, average, and sub-optimal spells that a local temple or library might have access to. The best versions are well-guarded secrets of the sects that discovered or acquired them.

 

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe the Goodsword clan make good swords. That would be entirely unsurprising to me.

I agree, that would be a weird assumption, I don't know why you think I would make it. But a Lankhor Mhy PC isn't going to have access to a Rokari optimised spell. I would not expect Rokari optimised spells to be in the core rulebook.

Given that there are only about 30 spells listed, and only a couple with offensive uses which are using only a couple of Runes, it's blatantly obvious that the RQ:G book doesn't list all possible spells - either currently available, or have ever existed. As you said - no Rokari optimised spells.

I started this thread because I wonder whether a PC needs to research (create) a certain spell themselves... Or if it's already out in the world and known by someone who could teach it. LM would be an obvious starting point (just going by what we have in the books). Black Arkat also gets a mention, but not enough detail.

 

@Jeff's response is quite valuable - it says that vastly better spells were out there, many lost, some re-discovered or re-created... And many not (yet). 

 

The question is more for RP purposes. Could the PC cast Geomancy to find a specific spell? Or is it just easier to research oneself? A Passive, Touch Logician doesn't seem that unbalancing, or difficult to acquire/create. (Unless, you create a version that can be cast multiple times in the same person, but for a different skill... ). 

[soltakss]

On 2/25/2020 at 2:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

If a sorcerer (easiest example to use) wants a new (perhaps slightly altered), does the spell already exist in Glorantha? Or will they be forced to always research it themselves?

It depends.

You could have the spell being known by a certain school and the Sorcerer should join the cult to learn the spell. The spell could be an old, lost one, that the sorcerer finds in a spell book or learns on a scenario or HeroQuest.

But, clearly not all spells are known, as we keep on making them up.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

But, clearly not all spells are known, as we keep on making them up

That's my point... Just because a book doesn't have it listed doesn't mean it doesn't exist. PCs are going to make up spells..  but the new spell.could be seen as awesome (and the PC amazing), or could be "ah yeah thanks, but we've already got that!"

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/28/2020 at 8:21 PM, soltakss said:

But, clearly not all spells are known, as we keep on making them up.

You are confusing Glorantha and real life. The spells we make up could be some of the millions of spells that exist in Glorantha.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You are confusing Glorantha and real life. The spells we make up could be some of the millions of spells that exist in Glorantha.

Does the difference matter between:

• The player/GM came up with a new spell. They interpret it as a spell that was used a long time ago but was forgotten, and found now on an old parchment.
• The player/GM came up with a new spell. They interpret it as a brand new spell that this priest the party just killed had invented, and written on an old parchment.

In both cases the character has the new spell, it's an uncommon or possibly unique spell, and people are going to come after it once they learn about it, and that's what matters IMHO.

FWIW I think that Gods' Rune magic has always been in existence (since the God Time), but might have been forgotten. One might "discover" some forgotten or lesser-known deed that some deity accomplished, and use that through Rune magic (probably after successfully heroquesting it to acquire it). The exception here are "new" Gods like the Red Goddess, which only happen once in an era. Spirits' Rune magic might be new, since new spirits exists and might rise in worship over time, but wouldn't be powerful compared to Gods' magic. Spirit magic might also be new, for the same reasons. Sorcery is where innovation happens all the time, although it might blow up in your face.

Edited March 1, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Does the difference matter between:

• The player/GM came up with a new spell. They interpret it as a spell that was used a long time ago but was forgotten, and found now on an old parchment.
• The player/GM came up with a new spell. They interpret it as a brand new spell that this priest the party just killed had invented, and written on an old parchment.

In both cases the character has the new spell, it's an uncommon or possibly unique spell, and people are going to come after it once they learn about it, and that's what matters IMHO.

Not if if it's the "research" variant. If it's the "found a teacher who already knows", then yes. If a teacher teaches, learning success is automatic (and possibly expensive). If researched from parchment, then rolls (possibly with low success) are involved (especially if written in an old or dead language!)

 

[Joerg]

Can you introduce a new feat for a deity in Godtime? Apparently the God Learners could, although they probably only combined snippets or artifacts from other myths to effect that.

Another case for new magic would be the Red Goddess. While Selenes were around in the Gods War, Lunes may be something new, and so are any spells summoning or commanding them.

[Lordabdul]

34 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Not if if it's the "research" variant. If it's the "found a teacher who already knows", then yes.

What's the difference if you learn from a teacher vs an old document?

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Can you introduce a new feat for a deity in Godtime? Apparently the God Learners could, although they probably only combined snippets or artifacts from other myths to effect that.

Yeah good point. IMG it would be mostly about "editing and remixing", the way people can invent new things by creating song mash-ups, funny trailers for old movies, or how the last act of Star Wars: A New Hope was cast in an entirely new (and much better) light thanks to the editing work... although I'm not 100% up to speed as to what the "canonical" God Learners could do exactly, so who knows.

Edited March 2, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

What's the difference if you learn from a teacher vs an old document?

P389/390

If a teacher teaches, no roll. If it's a document, roll R/W language, then INT x 3.

[Lordabdul]

Oh sure, but I mean what difference does it make if you're learning the spell from a teacher, and that teacher has invented the spell last week vs. "recovered" the spell from long forgotten myths last week?

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Oh sure, but I mean what difference does it make if you're learning the spell from a teacher, and that teacher has invented the spell last week vs. "recovered" the spell from long forgotten myths last week?

Ok.

Well, possible claims of God Learnerism... Or even just atheism. I.E., if an LM sorcerer makes the spell - all good! If it's an ancient manuscript, maybe not. 

But, that might be heading in a different direction than your intent.