Origins of Rune magic

[David Scott]

In conversation with @Jeff sometime back we talked about how you become a god and one of the basic tenants of Glorantha is that you can't refuse worship. This arose out of how Pavis who is clearly a sorcerer gets to give out Rune magic. So, if you worship something - it eventually starts returning powers. I'm going to define worship here as worshippers (initiates) giving a point of POW to make a connection, magic points are just small change the keeps the cosmos oiled smoothly, I'm going to ignore those.

So how is the magic defined? The Gods don't have a book of rules that just gives out appropriate magic, it needs defining by the worshippers. The makeup needed is pretty clear to me - you understand from your cosmic connection to what ever you are worshipping what rune(s) it resonates with. You likely resonate with this as that Rune is major part of your makeup too, or if you don''t, the cosmic connection starts to make you resonate with it (it increases). If it has more than one rune, perhaps you don't resonate as much with the other rune or maybe you do. The more resonance you have, the more you define it and it defines you - Theism is what you are.

The second thing you may have is the story(s) associated with what you are worshipping. From that you can interact with them in worship ceremonies. A worship ceremony is a simple form of sorcery - sorcery is something you know. All worshippers know that if they do a particular set of things they can establish a numinous connection directly with what they are worshipping and interact with it. The stronger the runic resonance with them the easier it is.

The stories can come from the resonances. You actually become the being and start to fall into their mythic roles. From these experiences the magic returned is shaped. This is the core of heroquesting / heroforming your god. Each rune spell comes is known myth. The more worshippers who experience it, the more likely it is to manifest as a gift from the God. Many of these magics have a similar effect and appear to be the same thing, but have different origins.

Leading on from this, this means there can be regional differences in the magics. Some may fall out of favour and new ones come in. In the Third Age there are many more rune magics than there were at the Dawn, more worshippers, more time to develop and explore the stories.

If you are born mortal, end up worshipped, there maybe a point where you can transcend beyond time. The risk is that when you do so you move past the normal cycle of death and are outside of it. You also risk being forgotten, so there are clearly a number of tricks to doing this, like becoming a hero of your cult, not a new god.

Are there rules for any of this - no, it's a risk you need to put enough of yourself on to the otherside, so when it happens, you have already set the ball in motion. You need enough of yourself there so you don't loose yourself.

So what are the stories of these rune spells that each god gives. What's the myth of how Orlanth got his magical shield, or how Ernalda became Inviolate?

In the final great gathering around his temple, the whole city came to hear him. Pavis raised his hands and asked that they all be seated. "I will always look after my city and its people. Look at each other and remember that here you are all my people. Here inside the walls, you are all citizens of my city and will treat each other as such. Be careful that no one leads you the wrong way. Many people will come and use my name to do what they want. remember that I am still here among you".

This was story was part of the worship of Pavis and eventually City Harmony was a Rune spell available to his cult.

[French Desperate WindChild]

does it mean that people can create a god from... anything ? just because they worship, they "know" (or they believe so strong that they seems to know) that their god is able to do some miracles.

 

Imagine Zogzog the trickster. Arrived in an unknown island, to avoid a fight/sacrifice with the native,  he said (that was not true) that this apple he has in his hand teached him some secrets

Zogzog said the apple is a war god and explain the people how to worship the apple and name himself as high priest. By some eurmali miracle, people accept the apple as their new war god

After a century, all the warriors of the apple cult, can cast truesword ?

 

Or is there some limit ? must the god (new or mythic) exist before being worshipped ? or must the story exist before it becomes a spell ?

Does that mean that a part of the great compromise, a kind of time impact, is that a god can now disappear because its stories are forgotten ?  And a new one can appear because its stories are known (believed) ?

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does it mean that people can create a god from... anything ? just because they worship, they "know" (or they believe so strong that they seems to know) that their god is able to do some miracles.

Yes, with the correct cosmic connection, worshippers and stories. 

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Imagine Zogzog the trickster. Arrived in an unknown island, to avoid a fight/sacrifice with the native,  he said (that was not true) that this apple he has in his hand teached him some secrets.

Sure. But the those who sacrifice to the apple have to believe it to be true. Most people would laugh and say that looks like a piece of fruit. 

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Zogzog said the apple is a war god and explain the people how to worship the apple and name himself as high priest. By some eurmali miracle, people accept the apple as their new war god

So those who are warriors sacrifice to the apple and feel no resonance with death or their warrior selves. Some who have the plant rune start to resonate with the apple.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

After a century, all the warriors of the apple cult, can cast truesword ?

The apple has no connection to fighting and/or death, the worshippers get no resonance and so don't identify their warrior selves with the apple.

Those resonating with the apple apple may realise it's a new kind of fruit and sacrifice it to get at the pips to grow them. The apple spirit begins to manifest on the island like a spirit cult as worshippers feed it mps and occasional POW. As the apple tress grow well every one looks after them. The apple gods starts to appear as more and more people sacrifice POW to it. Enough for a shrine... The trees grow strong and a particularly strong in the apple worshipper one day while worshipping the Apple god finds himself the apple god and says to his loyal followers. "You have all looked after me so well that my children will always feed you in times of trouble" and worshippers receive Bear Fruit from the shrine.

Later worshippers discover that the Apple God returned as he was the long lost son of the island god. The apple god tried to hide himself by pretending he was a great warrior so that he wouldn't be revealed as the son.

Now we need the story of why that happened.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Or is there some limit

Yes. Never trust a trickster.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must the god (new or mythic) exist before being worshipped ? or must the story exist before it becomes a spell ?

No. But it could be a retelling of another similar story. Rain (Orlanth Kills Aroka), could be retold as Snow, Hail, etc. This is a common part of mythology.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Does that mean that a part of the great compromise, a kind of time impact, is that a god can now disappear because its stories are forgotten ?

I think those worshipped can always become diminished and may be disappear. Few become gods, but many heroes and spirits come and go. Hence you need to establish yourself well before you transcend. 

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And a new one can appear because its stories are known (believed) ?

Yes. The stories aren't believed, they are true. The worshippers know this, they have been in them.

Have you read Hero with a 1000 faces by Joseph Campbell, Greg always recommended it as an introduction to this kind of thing.

[Akhôrahil]

I wonder If it’s possible to do ”attack” worship - if a god cannot resist worship, you might be able to make some kind of ”injection attack” using deliberately misconstrued worship. You might sacrifice inappropriate stuff, perform sabotaged rituals, recite made-up myths, or perhaps the MPs you sacrifice might be tainted (chaotic, originating from inappropriate sacrifices, and so on)? 

The god won’t be the least bit happy about this, but as you’re probably some kind of Illuminate, God Learner or other actor capable of defending yourself against Agents of Reprisal if you’re doing this kind of thing, that might not be enough to stop you.

I mean, what does happen if you perform human sacrifices to Chalana Arroy, and can handle the divine defences? Could you generate, at least locally, “Bloody-Handed Chalana”?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, what does happen if you perform human sacrifices to Chalana Arroy, and can handle the divine defences? Could you generate, at least locally, “Bloody-Handed Chalana”?

You might undo the fabric of the universe by rendering Chalana's contribution to the re-making of the world faulty. That might manifest as Chaos, as a cruel "sacrificial healing" where five lives are taken to fix one, or it might rip your very community out of the fabric of the Surface World, and (if you and your community are lucky) place it in a horrible Underworld or Outer World with overpowered opponents against you. Think Night of Horrors environments.

Mind you, this could be an interesting campaign. Can you escape that Dystopia, and salvage at least a kernel of your community to restart in a less abysmal environment?

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

as a cruel "sacrificial healing" where five lives are taken to fix one

Or one to fix five! #trolleyproblem

 

[David Scott]

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder If it’s possible to do ”attack” worship - if a god cannot resist worship, you might be able to make some kind of ”injection attack” using deliberately misconstrued worship.

Firstly, I'm talking about POW as the conduit for the worship link. I said magic points aren't part of it. A being cannot resist having POW sacrificed to to it. It's about sacrificing POW. A worship ritual is opened using magic points. That's the cause and effect, do it a certain way and this happens. The worship ceremony is the resonance between the being and the worshipper. 

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You might sacrifice inappropriate stuff, perform sabotaged rituals, recite made-up myths, or perhaps the MPs you sacrifice might be tainted (chaotic, originating from inappropriate sacrifices, and so on)?

That's unlikely as all of worshippers will want to act in accordance with the being. These things can likely happen, but don't make the ritual work. Different rituals for different beings. For example, Orlanth, we stand on top of a hill and sacrifice bulls, Chalana Arroy, we sit in quiet contemplation and sing soft healing songs. If you don't follow the ritual it doesn't work.

Ultimately that's what the god learners did and it didn't turn out well. So while possible, the numinous can't be treated totally as computer code. 

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, what does happen if you perform human sacrifices to Chalana Arroy, and can handle the divine defences? Could you generate, at least locally, “Bloody-Handed Chalana”?

What is the goal here,

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

What is the goal here,

Understanding of the metaphysics.

[soltakss]

Don't forget that we are not just talking about imbuing a deity with powers simply through worship.

If a powerful person has an ability or magic item then great. good for them. 

However, if that person then decides to be worshipped then they need a presence on the God Plane. It might be "This is how Jo learned how to use the smoking stick". Once that is done, then people can worship Jo and also learn how to use the Smoking Stick. They might learn a skill of Smoking stick, a Spirit Magic spell or even a Runespell.

It may be that simply worshipping Jo and his smoking Stick is enough to give Jo a presence on the God Plane.

However, what I don;t think you can do is to worship Jo and decide "Oh look, we need to concentrate really hard to give Jo a Smoking Stick", that just doesn't work.

What you can do, though, is to HeroQuest as Jo and get a Smoking Stick which you then make available to Jo's Cult, which means that you have given Jo a Smoking Stick.

 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does it mean that people can create a god from... anything ? just because they worship, they "know" (or they believe so strong that they seems to know) that their god is able to do some miracles.

Not in my games. I think you have to have a magical ability, do something magical or HeroQuest to prove something.

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Imagine Zogzog the trickster. Arrived in an unknown island, to avoid a fight/sacrifice with the native,  he said (that was not true) that this apple he has in his hand teached him some secrets

Zogzog said the apple is a war god and explain the people how to worship the apple and name himself as high priest. By some eurmali miracle, people accept the apple as their new war god

After a century, all the warriors of the apple cult, can cast truesword ?

Maybe that works in your games, but not in mine.

It could work like this:

• Zogzig arrives and uses lie to convince a native that the apple he is holding teaches him the secret of death
• The natives believe him and start to worship the apple
• After a while, they realise that the apple doesn't give them any spells or abilities, so they ask the apple themselves
• They HeroQuest to find the secret of the apple and find that it is poisonous
• They HeroQuest some more and find that it is very strong and can be used as a slingstone
• They HeroQuest some more and find they can sharpen its pips and blow them through a blowpipe
• Now, they have an Apple Deity that they can use to kill people in various ways

 

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

does it mean that people can create a god from... anything ? just because they worship, they "know" (or they believe so strong that they seems to know) that their god is able to do some miracles.

The God Learners did that with Jogrampur. An entirely imaginary deity with real consequences -- especially for the God Learners when the priesthood revolted against them.

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder If it’s possible to do ”attack” worship - if a god cannot resist worship, you might be able to make some kind of ”injection attack” using deliberately misconstrued worship. You might sacrifice inappropriate stuff, perform sabotaged rituals, recite made-up myths, or perhaps the MPs you sacrifice might be tainted (chaotic, originating from inappropriate sacrifices, and so on)?

In some ways, you could view that as part of the White Moon movement. Using prophecies and myths to try and influence the goddess through their worship.

This may also be behind the Rokari opposition to veneration of the Ascended Masters. By performing these worship rituals, that the Masters can't resist, you help entangle them more into the world, hampering their spirituality.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

This may also be behind the Rokari opposition to veneration of the Ascended Masters. By performing these worship rituals, that the Masters can't resist, you help entangle them more into the world, hampering their spirituality.

Eastern Mystics must be unusually annoyed when people try to worship them!

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

what does happen if you perform human sacrifices to Chalana Arroy,

Chalana will flee westward seeking agents to help her against Chaos. Variously known as Lifebringers or Lightbringers, Chalana will encounter this foe in the Underworld and be broken and renewed. And when the quest is complete, her allies will return and rid the world of this corruption.

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Understanding of the metaphysics.

The goal of attempting to corrupt Chalana Arroy.

I was asking what are the stories of these rune spells that each god gives. What's the myth of how Orlanth got his magical shield, or how Ernalda became Inviolate?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, if that person then decides to be worshipped then they need a presence on the God Plane.

This is the fundamental part. Once you have given them a point of POW, it gives them a presence though tiny. Not even a toehold. They also don't have to decide, they can't refuse it. However they don't give anything in return unless there are enough initiates. 

[Richard S.]

So basically you can give anyone POW as a sacrifice? So I could sacrifice to a beggar down the street and he'd get a tiny otherworld presence without having to do anything himself? Also, does the POW sacrificed go directly to the god or does it hang in their "link" to the middle world, strengthening the connection but not necessarily giving the god more POW themselves. The way I've previously interpreted/run it, gods basically add the POW sacrificed to their own POW stat, which over time gives them a phenomenal amount of renewable MPs which they use to cast huge spells on the behalf of the worshipper, which we call Rune magic, though to the god it's more like sorcery and each casting takes a long time and a buttload of MP from them, though as the god is unbound by time it doesn't seem to take that long for the worshipper. This is probably a really gamey response but it made sense in my head.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Chalana will flee westward seeking agents to help her against Chaos. Variously known as Lifebringers or Lightbringers, Chalana will encounter this foe in the Underworld and be broken and renewed. And when the quest is complete, her allies will return and rid the world of this corruption.

I would say rather, CA will call on heroquesters, but success in the HQ is not guaranteed. We know from the Goddess Swap that gods aren’t immune  to mortals, nor can they count on their worshipers to always sort things out.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

This is the fundamental part. Once you have given them a point of POW, it gives them a presence though tiny. Not even a toehold. They also don't have to decide, they can't refuse it. However they don't give anything in return unless there are enough initiates. 

That's how I picture it too... well, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.

Starting a cult in Glorantha is pretty much the same as starting a cult in the real-world, at least at first. Any Random Joe can ask people to come over to his place on Sundays, eat sandwiches and listen to him talk about metaphysics... and then talk about this marvelous plant he's putting in the sandwiches. And how listening to him will let them go to "the next level" and that they should give him money and so on. As Random Joe makes them do various rituals of his own invention over the next few years, they are knowingly or unknowingly heroforming the myths that he has created... with enough "weight", the myths are going to start to "stick" and he will be able to create, cast, and offer a limited, weak version of this new Rune magic. It keeps growing some more over the years... although I'm not sure if a God-in-the-making is supposed to already be able to have his own Rune magic, or if that would have to wait until he has moved on to the God World. At this point, Random Joe is drawing the attention of both the local cults (who are not happy to see this new cult in their backyard) and the Gods (because he can receive worship and give out new Rune magic, while not being tied by the Compromise). There might be a point at which Random Joe gets apotheosized just because he can't go on from the Mortal Plane without getting into serious trouble... or maybe apotheosis is required to start handing out Rune magic to his worshippers, making good on years of promises... I would personally go with the first option because this weird blend between the mundane and the divine is more interesting to me than a hard line between the two.

A friendly and entertaining book about the link between ideas, reality, myths, and magic might be the comicbook "The Unwritten". The first few volumes are brilliant even though I thought it lost its way after that.

Edited May 19, 2020 by lordabdul

[GAZZA]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Ultimately that's what the god learners did and it didn't turn out well.

I'd say it turned out very well. Pretty much all the God Learner experiments did in fact work just fine. They were eventually punished for "cheating" but I think the only possible conclusion from the God Learner research is that they were right. They obviously missed some of the subtle traps that led to their demise, of course.

And I say "they were right" advisedly. It is entirely possible that what they did doesn't work any more.