What did Greg Stafford think of the Orlanthi and Lunars?

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

We should absolutely bring up that it's been outright stated that the settlement of the Grantlands and similar policies being pursued in "Civilized Prax" are being done with the actual long term goal of destroying the Praxian nomads' way of life simply because it makes them harder to tax and rule and they constitute a military threat to the empire's expansionist regime.

I was actually referring to the 1625-onward narrative of the Praxian nomads' ethnic cleansing of the Grantlands settlers.  But there you are -- sauce for the gander!

!i!

[creativehum]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

We Should All Read the Glorantha Voices again!

Actually, I was digging through my Glorantha material last night to exactly that end!

2 hours ago, Fedman Kassad said:

The fact that folks are here having an argument discussion about the my choice good, your choice bad just shows how great a job well Greg and Co. did with this amazing setting...

Agreed.

[DrGoth]

Which community/way of life is good? Which community/way of life is bad?  I don't think there are simplistic answers to that. This isn't Middle Earth.  At the heart of Glorantha is that no one way knows everything or is wholly correct about its understanding of the world.

Just about every culture in Glorantha has tried to impose its point of view on another by force of arms.  The Lunar Empire is doing it 'now'. Argrath will try to do it soon. And they are far from alone.  Have the Lunars done things that would be judged questionable (even evil) by the norms of our society? Almost certainly (and I only say almost because of what certain governments seem to be able to get away with).  Judged by the norms of Bronze age/Iron age empires?  The Lunars are pretty par for the course.

I don't think the Lunars are trying to destroy the world.  They're trying another way to deal with the Chaos that it seems to be impossible to totally eradicate from Glorantha (violence is always an option but there is is always another way).  If we were to judge communities by mistakes they made en masse in Glorantha than the Orlanthi record is hardly spotless.

This might sound odd but I don't want there to be a conclusion to the " who is good/bad" discussion. Because a lack of a conclusion leaves the space for us to find the answers we want/discover ("they are, no they are, no all of them all, no none of them are") in our own games.

I think this thread proves the genius in the creation of Glorantha - the space for interpretation and creativity in such a richly detailed world. If I had one wish in this it is that Chaosium does not say "well canonically Argrath smashes the Lunar empire,  all the gods are killed and yeah, everyone forgets how to read."  We're supposed to be making our own stories here, and having the end imposed on us doesn't help that. I also don't believe that that was Greg's intention - for the reason I posted earlier.

[DrGoth]

Here's a story line I've occasionally toyed with for a campaign.

Orlanth made mistakes and fixed them.  He did some really bad things.  Yelm was his uncle (see the diety family tress in the guide and the ritual Orlanthi challenge to solar worshippers). He's a kinslayer.  You could make a case that his action let chaos into the world. But he recognised his error and fixed it, as best he could.

Now, the Red Goddess is, at least in her re-ascendancy, a lot younger. A lot earlier on her path.  Has she made mistakes? Yep (hello, crimson bat, for starters). What if she started trying to fix things?  Maybe she needs to , to become the white moon again.  But she's now bound by the cosmic compromise, having proved her place in it by the actions at Castle Blue.  So maybe she has to act through a determined band of worshippers (ie, the PCs). Maybe they have to persaude Jar-Eel (the Lunar emperor being a lost case).  Jar-Eel and the PCs having to deal with two slavering barbarian hordes on the one hand (Argrath and co and the Pentians) and the recidivist elements of the empire on the other while dealing with the magical aspects of this, possible culminating in a great heroquest to save/retrieve the world from ruin, looks to me like something that has story potential.

Now, the above might be an extreme left turn on the normal progression. But that's partly my point. I want a Glorantha where stories like this are *possible*. Where we have the immense detail and the possibility to find our own ways through it and craft our own end.

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, creativehum said:

I don't think anyone on this thread doubts the Lunars can go to bed comfortably each night having justified the sacrifice of scores of people for a logic and theology imposed on their victims against their wills.

By extrapolation, RW capitalism and nationalism (to name but two) are surely phenomenally evil ideologies that must be destroyed at all costs, even if it means putting lunatic ideologues in power and encouraging them to immiserate billions of innocents...

After all, the flaws of our side are trivial, since our hearts are in the right place, even if our leaders are objectively maniacs and fanatics: when we kill billions, it’s an accident, easily waved away. And if anyone disagrees, we’ll kill them to shut them up — after all, they’re a willing mouthpiece for utter abomination. (Know a car driver? They’re destroying the planet. Kill that ecocidal maniac now, and plough them into the fields! It’s the only reasonable and proportionate response)

... well, that’s what comes to mind when people obsess about the all-consuming Evils of the Lunar Empire. The Roman Empire had evils of its own; and yet we call the grim period that happened after it fell “the Dark Ages” for plenty of good reasons. It was objectively a terrible time to be alive. (But mah Freedoms!)

[creativehum]

If my understanding of Glorantha has me overstating the importance of Chaos within the setting of Glorantha -- a force that is both literal within the setting and contrary to the existence of life and the universe -- I apologize.

Edited May 30, 2020 by creativehum

[Austin]

3 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Now, the Red Goddess is, at least in her re-ascendancy, a lot younger. A lot earlier on her path.  Has she made mistakes? Yep (hello, crimson bat, for starters). What if she started trying to fix things?  Maybe she needs to , to become the white moon again.  But she's now bound by the cosmic compromise, having proved her place in it by the actions at Castle Blue.  So maybe she has to act through a determined band of worshippers (ie, the PCs). Maybe they have to persaude Jar-Eel (the Lunar emperor being a lost case).  Jar-Eel and the PCs having to deal with two slavering barbarian hordes on the one hand (Argrath and co and the Pentians) and the recidivist elements of the empire on the other while dealing with the magical aspects of this, possible culminating in a great heroquest to save/retrieve the world from ruin, looks to me like something that has story potential.

I seem to recall a version of this as a canonical story. May have been lurking somewhere in King of Sartar's footnotes; if I get time, I'll go hunting. Basically, Argrath has to overcome his hatred of the Red Moon in order to succeed with his revenge, and likewise Argrath is the cosmic reaction generated by the Red Goddess for her to transcend herself, and become the White Moon.

Of course, the Lunars of 1625 don't know this, which is why the Empire wants to silence the White Moon Movement.

[GAZZA]

6 hours ago, Nevermet said:

We Should All Read the Glorantha Voices again!

lol. "Again", you say.  I don't even know what that is!

[creativehum]

32 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

lol. "Again", you say.  I don't even know what that is!

Here you go.

Of note, Nick Brooke developed the Concept and was the Project Manager, as well as writing several of the pieces.

Quote

The rich cultural backdrop of the world of Glorantha has always been one of its greatest strengths, keeping gamers fascinated for over twenty-five years. One of the many ways in which this was explored in the former RuneQuest game was through short narratives for major cultures and races detailing “What the Priest Says” and “What My Father Told Me.” Pithy, often witty, and always insightful, these narratives were a popular feature of the game and were a quick, easy way to introduce new players to peoples and beliefs of this game world.

Now Glorantha is coming to a new generation of players with the release of HeroQuest, the game of epic roleplaying. This book is one of a range of game aids. It contains these in- troductory narratives for all ten homelands described in those rules, as well as for seven other peoples and races. Further- more, as a sample for those who do not yet own HeroQuest, HeroQuest Voices contains one of those homelands (Teshnos)

at the end as an example of how the cultures are presented in the game in an easy-to-use format.

Although some of these narratives have appeared before, they have been updated to reflect development of the world since their original publication. Additionally, project manager Nick Brooke has assembled several new pieces written by many of today’s key Gloranthan authors, including David Dunham (co-creator of the King of Dragon Pass computer game), Mark Galeotti, and Greg Stafford himself. Illustrations by Gloranthan artists old and new show sample members of these peoples.

We hope you enjoy these narratives. From the brutal dir- ectness of the nomadic Bison Rider to the elegant mysteries of the Kralori, from the uplifting hymns of the Esvulari clergyman to the deep—in every sense—wisdom of the merman priest, thirty-four voices from Glorantha speak to you of their ways and their dreams, their lives and their hopes.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by creativehum

[GAZZA]

Cheers!

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I seem to recall a version of this as a canonical story. May have been lurking somewhere in King of Sartar's footnotes; if I get time, I'll go hunting. Basically, Argrath has to overcome his hatred of the Red Moon in order to succeed with his revenge, and likewise Argrath is the cosmic reaction generated by the Red Goddess for her to transcend herself, and become the White Moon.

Of course, the Lunars of 1625 don't know this, which is why the Empire wants to silence the White Moon Movement.

You may be thinking of this old piece I wrote: it's not canonical, but it was thoroughly sourced by cross-checking oddities from King of Sartar against primary Gloranthan sources. 

Triumph of the Lunar Cosmos

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

Here you go.

Of note, Nick Brooke developed the Concept and was the Project Manager, as well as writing several of the pieces.

I made editorial tweaks to some of the older Voices, but I didn't write any of them myself. I'm waiting to hear from @Jeff whether we can put a new edition of Gloranthan Voices together for the Jonstown Compendium - it'd have the same text Chaosium was giving away 17 years ago (non-Chaosium authors have been contacted and are all on board), all-new artwork, and hopefully a shiny print-on-demand hardcover to sit on my bookshelf.

[Austin]

41 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You may be thinking of this old piece I wrote: it's not canonical, but it was thoroughly sourced by cross-checking oddities from King of Sartar against primary Gloranthan sources.

I think I was recalling the Zin letter you quoted, yeah, in conjunction with other stuff. I've not read your essay before. At some point I'm gonna have to do more digging with this theme, Great Sister, and the White Moon Movement; I suspect my game's meta-plot will be getting moved in that direction, since my players are growing both anti-Lunar and anti-Argrath.

[Nick Brooke]

Then have a hunt around the Moonie Madness section of my old website, there's a lot of things there you might enjoy. In particular:

• The Evil Empire
• The Withering Away of the Empire
• The Arrolian Lunar Church

 

[DrGoth]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

You may be thinking of this old piece I wrote: it's not canonical, but it was thoroughly sourced by cross-checking oddities from King of Sartar against primary Gloranthan sources. 

Triumph of the Lunar Cosmos

I think I may have read that back in the early 00's and it was what spurred my thinking.  What I was postulating was an even more explicit Lunar victory. Possibly even Lunar Heroquesters (PCs) are the ones that help the Goddess shed her red skin.  While those barbarian windbags are kicked in the teeth and sent packing having got nowhere near the Moon.

But my real point is that all these stories and more should be possible.

Argrarth the heroic liberator

Argrath the tormented hero who realises just how much is being lost

Argrath the reincarnation of Arkat who doesn't care about the cost

Argrath the reincarnation of Lokamayadon (oo - isn't it just so convenient all those gods die. Hail Argrath!)

All sorts of variations where the Lunars win

Others where there is a compromise between Sedenya and Orlanth about the middle air

Yet more where, while Dragon Pass might be the crucible, the real outcome of the hero Wars is decided somewhere else (ie, where the PCs are)

And others I can't begin to list.

At the moment there's room for all that. Please keep it that way.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I just spend the last 30 minutes trying to write a post and gave up, because I couldn't figure out how to be coherent.  🥺

Just do what I do and talk rubbish all the time.

[Nevermet]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Just do what I do and talk rubbish all the time.

Do you want me to start talking about postmodernism?  Cuz that's how you get me talking about postmodernism.

🤡

[redmoongoddess]

On 5/26/2020 at 1:14 PM, dumuzid said:

My interpretation of the Hero Wars is that if your PCs aren't Argrath themselves, it's probably their job to stop or counsel him before he butterfly effects the Monster Empire into being

Better idea: Don't involve argrath at all, imho, the "this character is super important and the pcs do nothing while he does all of the important things" thing blew up in white wolf's face, the same fate will occur to Glorantha unless they listen to their fans.

Chaosium? See the people who love the Lunars? Including Greg? You might wanna actually do Lunar things already instead of submitting to the feedback loop of pain and suffering. You don't really know if players won't buy an Lunar Book or not until you actually try it. Sartar Rising 3 also failed so don't use the lunar handbook books failing as an rebuttal against that.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Redmoongodess

[GAZZA]

15 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Better idea: Don't involve argrath at all, imho, the "this character is super important and the pcs do nothing while he does all of the important things" thing blew up in white wolf's face, the same fate will occur to Glorantha unless they listen to their fans.

Forgotten Realms is doing fine with Elminster and Driz'zt though. The fact that a character is important to the story doesn't mean they'll assume that importance in game - I am one of the bigger "if it's important, I want the PCs doing it" types and I still plan on Argrath existing - just not letting him do all the cool stuff while the PCs are bystanders. Perhaps they'll help him. Perhaps they'll oppose him. Perhaps they'll kill him and feed his soul to the Bat.

[Leingod]

16 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Better idea: Don't involve argrath at all, imho, the "this character is super important and the pcs do nothing while he does all of the important things" thing blew up in white wolf's face, the same fate will occur to Glorantha unless they listen to their fans.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that's it's at serious risk of going in that direction and Chaosium needs to be warned away. Even from the beginning of the "Argrath Saga" with King of Sartar they've provided explicit license through things like in-universe unreliable narrators and deliberately contradictory and exaggerated information for groups to have as much latitude as they want to say they or one of their number is "an" Argrath who did some or several of the deeds attributed to "the" Argrath, had mysteries like "who was Kallyr's Feedman?" so you could give your heroes important positions even before Argrath's rise to power, and in at least one book have explicitly said you're completely at liberty to just say one or even all of your heroes is actually "the" Argrath and the later historians just got it wrong when they concluded the Whitebull was the most likely candidate for "the" Argrath.

And anyway, in many of the "official" published campaigns - let's use the example of the Red Cow Saga, which is explicitly meant to be the chronicle of an only somewhat important clan and thus smaller in scale by design for much of it - you still end up playing an important and direct role first in the Dragonrise itself and then are directly responsible for the victory that manages to free Sartar from Lunar control for the first time in a generation. Does all of that suddenly not count as "important things" just because Argrath advises them on how to harness the power of the Three New Stars? Are they glorified errand boys simply because Kallyr was the commanding officer at Dangerford? Is their hand in the liberation of Jonstown (and their direct impact on how intact Jonstown is at the end of it) worthless just because they're not wearing crowns at the end of it?

And if your answer to that is "yes," then just spring off from the Colymar Campaign in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, which is actually built on the assumption that at least one of your characters (even all of them, if you'd like) is in fact a member of the House of Sartar and thus a totally viable candidate for the throne if they can build up enough power and support.

16 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Chaosium? See the people who love the Lunars? Including Greg? You might wanna actually do Lunar things already instead of submitting to the feedback loop of pain and suffering. You don't really know if players won't buy an Lunar Book or not until you actually try it. Sartar Rising 3 also failed so don't use the lunar handbook books failing as an rebuttal against that.

I'm sure they'd love to, but most of their writers are freelancers and the ones who aren't are working on stuff like Gods of Glorantha, and that's probably more important to get out there soonish than an official Lunar campaign, especially since it'll already have a lot of detail on Lunar cults and magic. It'll happen when someone with the talent and the interest picks up that torch, and no sooner.

[redmoongoddess]

@LeingodMy issue is that Argrath was an ambiguous character, but recently Chaosium have gone out of their way to feature the guy as an prominent NPC, even going out of their way to Fridge Kallyr instead of keeping her around as an possible npc counterpart to the "good guy turning evil" story of Argrath, 

@GAZZA Look into Samuel Haight, and I'm not familiar with the Forgotten Realms, but I doubt the rpg books usually had the players right by where Driz'zt was doing what he was doing, whereis Runequest Glorantha openly has the players working in exactly the area he rules where they presumbly have to do his bidding if they wanna be anti-Lunar Orlanthi. Unless Chaosium plans on having Argrath as an villain, the players are going to quickly learn about this Argrath guy and their reaction will be "Wow, sure sounds like the GM's Pet NPC!" once they found out about all of the shit he did to assure the MUCH weaker pcs actually can exist in a Lunar free kingdom. Maybe they won't, but decades of badly handled metaplots in other rpgs and gm horror stories is anyone skeptical of the "great hero" Argrath.

"But what about Pendragon? Doesn't it have a lot of scenarios where you just watch King Arthur do cool stuff?" And a lot of years and events that don't involve Arthur with the implication that the Players will be busy with other stuff (Including their own lives) instead of always following Arthur? King Of Sartar was, as you point out an ambigious tale that implied Argrath could've been just the shared name of a bunch of other people. Le Morte Da Arthur is Le Morte Da Arthur. It's an classic of literature. King Of Sartar isn't there yet. I don't think players will be respectful to Argrath the way they might to Arthur.

24 minutes ago, Leingod said:

 

I'm sure they'd love to, but most of their writers are freelancers and the ones who aren't are working on stuff like Gods of Glorantha, and that's probably more important to get out there soonish than an official Lunar campaign, especially since it'll already have a lot of detail on Lunar cults and magic. It'll happen when someone with the talent and the interest picks up that torch, and no sooner.

I agree, the issue is that they've decided to make Runequest, "Roleplaying In Glorantha" focus almost solely on the Orlanthi because of admitted appeal to sales. I like the Orlanthi but holy shitters we could move on from them already. But Chaosium decided to have them as the start of their foundations for the future, and I strongly doubt we're going to ever see areas like the Lunar Kingdom get the respect they deserve considering the usual cycle of cancelled Runequest Products. I.E. Runequest 6 Glorantha. Which was going to have Balazarings and sorcery rules...compare that to """RuneQuest 4."""

[davecake]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:42 AM, Darius West said:

t isn't the same moon.  Not at all.  As for actually finishing what you start, how is that obsessive vengeance?  Who started the War for the Middle Air anyhow?  The fact is that the Lunars are simply the latest form of the Devil,  using the masks of false enlightenment to disguise their true form. 

Ah, Darius, always ready to tell us the Lunars are absolutely objectively wrong because they use spiritual arguments to justify terrible things, and that is why Argrath was absolutely right to justify his spiritual disagreements with them to kill several million inhabitants of Peloria, first by winter and famine, then by dropping the remains of a planet on them. 

If you take the viewpoint of any one Gloranthan culture as true, and their opposition as false, you will then find that according to those assumptions they are totally justified. But you can generally do it in reverse, and come to the opposite conclusion. It's harder to do for, say, Fonrit - and generally, for people from European cultures with less exposure to the traditions Greg classes as mystic to understand them. But its intentional that ever culture in Glorantha can see themselves as the good guys, albeit with some difficult compromises. 

[davecake]

On 5/30/2020 at 7:46 AM, DrGoth said:

Now, the Red Goddess is, at least in her re-ascendancy, a lot younger. A lot earlier on her path.  Has she made mistakes? Yep (hello, crimson bat, for starters). What if she started trying to fix things?  Maybe she needs to , to become the white moon again.  But she's now bound by the cosmic compromise, having proved her place in it by the actions at Castle Blue.  So maybe she has to act through a determined band of worshippers (ie, the PCs). Maybe they have to persaude Jar-Eel (the Lunar emperor being a lost case). 

Jar-Eel, and perhaps her 'ally' Great Sister, clearly believe that the Emperor is not serving the Lunar Way. Jar-Eel is also literally the goddess incarnate. She tries to fix the Empire. She does not, immediately, appear to succeed. But Greg was clear in his intention, with exploring the Lunar Way, to eventually write something like King of Sartar, but from the Lunar point of view. He never finished that project, but I think he went a far way down it - and yes, I think he intended for the destruction of the Red Moon to be revealed as a spiritual victory that renews the world, and completes some of the goddesses grand project of spiritual liberation. We just don't know how that endgame plays out, how the last years of the Empire look like from their point of view. 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

I don't know where you're getting the idea that's it's at serious risk of going in that direction and Chaosium needs to be warned away. Even from the beginning of the "Argrath Saga" with King of Sartar they've provided explicit license through things like in-universe unreliable narrators and deliberately contradictory and exaggerated information for groups to have as much latitude as they want to say they or one of their number is "an" Argrath who did some or several of the deeds attributed to "the" Argrath, had mysteries like "who was Kallyr's Feedman?" so you could give your heroes important positions even before Argrath's rise to power, and in at least one book have explicitly said you're completely at liberty to just say one or even all of your heroes is actually "the" Argrath and the later historians just got it wrong when they concluded the Whitebull was the most likely candidate for "the" Argrath.

Unfortunately, Chaosium has backpedalled hard on this interpretation - there was one Argrath and he did all this stuff and that's just the way it goes. YGMV, but this is the official story.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

"But what about Pendragon? Doesn't it have a lot of scenarios where you just watch King Arthur do cool stuff?" And a lot of years and events that don't involve Arthur with the implication that the Players will be busy with other stuff (Including their own lives) instead of always following Arthur? King Of Sartar was, as you point out an ambigious tale that implied Argrath could've been just the shared name of a bunch of other people. Le Morte Da Arthur is Le Morte Da Arthur. It's an classic of literature. King Of Sartar isn't there yet. I don't think players will be respectful to Argrath the way they might to Arthur.

One of the good things about Arthur is that after gaining the crown and kicking the tar out of the saxons, he doesn’t do a lot. Yes, there’s the occasional war, but he’s not really driving the plot. Being a perfect king is a rather passive job. You can tell how he doesn’t get that much screen time in Malory later on. Also, some early baby-killing aside, Arthur is basically a good guy. Argrath on the other hand is a serial génocidaire.

In a way, Lancelot is more annoying, because he does drive the plot, and he’s a “you will never be this good or this cool” NPC.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Akhôrahil